Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    I'm pretty sure no one has ever said he deserves sole credit.

    In fact, the only people who have been given sole credit for 2004 and 2007 are Manny Ramirez and Dan Duquette.

    The only people still trying to insist sole credit has to be given are the few remaining nasal offenders who insist this is still an issue.   Sadly, not one of that pathetic little surfeit has figured out that picking apart individual moves will ever give the answers they really should be looking for...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    I'm pretty sure no one has ever said he deserves sole credit. In fact, the only people who have been given sole credit for 2004 and 2007 are Manny Ramirez and Dan Duquette. The only people still trying to insist sole credit has to be given are the few remaining nasal offenders who insist this is still an issue.   Sadly, not one of that pathetic little surfeit has figured out that picking apart individual moves will ever give the answers they really should be looking for...
    Posted by notin


    I'm not sure if that is the correct use of the word "surfeit," but I dig your choice of terms anyway.  Well said as usual, notin, our thoughtful and articulate stooge.  "Nasal offenders" n'ain't all that bad neither. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : So, when can we look forward to you trotting off to a Cubs forum?
    Posted by carnie


    never

    But you, Moonslav, harness and the pink hatters should be in Chicago by Tues.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    Mazz agrees with me on Theo.

    No idea what Dan Shaughnessy was on.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    bump
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    I loathe Mazz.  Red top rabble rousing Murdochian trash.  Not an interesting thought in his head.  The "Beckett deal" comment is typical of his stupidity.  Was Theo the guy that made the deal to acquire Beckett (Lowell was baggage we were forced to take that turned out great)?  I do not know....nor does Mazz, I'm sure, despite that being his job.  But if Theo was NOT the decision maker to acquire Beckett, then Theo was also NOT the guy that gave away Hanley Ramirez.

    In 2007 Hanley Ramirez hit 29 homers, stole 51 bases, had an OPS of .948, etc...and only turns 28 this December.  What sort of idiot would trade away such a giant talent for a beer drinking, fried chicken eating reprobate?  Not Theo, right? He didn't make that trade, did he?

    Theo Epstein is not above criticism....but to criticise him for not being the guy that traded X worth of talent for..... X worth of talent is ridiculous.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    I loathe Mazz.  Red top rabble rousing Murdochian trash.  Not an interesting thought in his head.  The "Beckett deal" comment is typical of his stupidity.  Was Theo the guy that made the deal to acquire Beckett (Lowell was baggage we were forced to take that turned out great)?  I do not know....nor does Mazz, I'm sure, despite that being his job.  But if Theo was NOT the decision maker to acquire Beckett, then Theo was also NOT the guy that gave away Hanley Ramirez. In 2007 Hanley Ramirez hit 29 homers, stole 51 bases, had an OPS of .948, etc...and only turns 28 this December.  What sort of idiot would trade away such a giant talent for a beer drinking, fried chicken eating reprobate?  Not Theo, right? He didn't make that trade, did he? Theo Epstein is not above criticism....but to criticise him for not being the guy that traded X worth of talent for..... X worth of talent is ridiculous.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars


    Red Sox don't win the 2007 World Series without Beckett's pitching and Manny's monster HR versus Anaheim.

    Mazz is correct about Theo.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    I don't advocate banning as a rule A pity plea for censorship, from the resident embedded Board shill bully. Banning Moonslow and Harnazz would rid the board of stalking police routine and out to lunch homey propaganda on market value of Timmy T-Ball, INEpstein and Varitek. If it were up to these two drones, Epstein would have been given the extension he begged for and he might have re-signed the resident frat boy 40 year old parasites, Wakefield and Varitek.
    Posted by hankwilliams


    Wow Hank, you sound like that idiot Softlaw that has been barred from the site dozens of times.  What a jerk that guy is!  Funny how Moon and Harness have between them made about 20,000 posts without being barred even once.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : Wow Hank, you sound like that idiot Softlaw that has been barred from the site dozens of times.  What a jerk that guy is!  Funny how Moon and Harness have between them made about 20,000 posts without being barred even once.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars


    Not only is it funny, its a riot.

    Theo Chicks have ruled these boards for years. I'd venture to say EVERY Red Sox fan that criticized Theo Epstein for anything has been blackballed or run off BDC by these lifeless losers.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    Worse news?

    Gonna be tough to keep Verlander from being the AL MVP.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    Laughing
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : Red Sox don't win the 2007 World Series without Beckett's pitching and Manny's monster HR versus Anaheim. Mazz is correct about Theo.
    Posted by OurMan


    You forgot to add "in my opinion".

    I think the "Beckett" trade worked out great for both teams, and don't have any regrets about it.  But this is not like the Varitek/Lowe-for-Slocumb robbery. ...whether it was Lajoie, Epstein, or AN Other that consummated the deal, the deal was two ten dollar bills for a twenty.  It's not a valid criticism of Theo whether one thinks he was involved or not.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Goofywocky. Show Goofywocky's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    Heard rumors that the koch bros might be buying the Sox. They were born into privilege and wealth, weren't extremely bright, somehwat cowardly,  had expensive cars early...squealing tires, alcohol, learned to like buying privacy at the public expense, etc.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : You forgot to add "in my opinion". I think the "Beckett" trade worked out great for both teams, and don't have any regrets about it.  But this is not like the Varitek/Lowe-for-Slocumb robbery. ...whether it was Lajoie, Epstein, or AN Other that consummated the deal, the deal was two ten dollar bills for a twenty.  It's not a valid criticism of Theo whether one thinks he was involved or not.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars


    In the eyes of Theo Chicks, no criticism of Epstein is valid.

    Which of course, happens to be the problem.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : In the eyes of Theo Chicks, no criticism of Epstein is valid. Which of course, happens to be the problem.
    Posted by OurMan




    So true. In the end Theo is nothing but a bit player in those two WSCs. Once he was given full autonomy we found out quickly that he was in way over his head. Things have gone steadily downhill the last four years, to the point where it's close to being a disaster currently. That's what Theo's legacy will be--the guy who fought for full control, got it, and then proved he was icompentent. God bless Ricketts and the Cubs. It's all but a lock Theo will never finish out that five year deal in Chicago. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    How ever you want to play it, good-bad-indifferent, it is cowardly to high tail it out of town post mortem. A big man would've taken some responsibility and stuck around to clean it up. 

    He made some good moves and he made some bad ones.  The worst is this last one- his own.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : So true. In the end Theo is nothing but a bit player in those two WSCs. Once he was given full autonomy we found out quickly that he was in way over his head. Things have gone steadily downhill the last four years, to the point where it's close to being a disaster currently. That's what Theo's legacy will be--the guy who fought for full control, got it, and then proved he was icompentent. God bless Ricketts and the Cubs. It's all but a lock Theo will never finish out that five year deal in Chicago. 
    Posted by greenapplesplatters


    Theo's legacy:

    Fought for full control (pouted when he didn't have it).
    Got full control.
    Drove Red Sox into the ground.
    Ran away leaving his mess behind.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    A simple study of the players in 2004 showed most of the salary was inherited from Duquette, and most of the WAR was supplied by Theo.

    Just taking the two guys mentioned by Mazz-

    Pedro & Manny supplied a WAR of 8.6 for $40M.  Schilling and Papi supplied a WAR of 10.7 for $16.5M.

    It's not even remotely close.  I think part of the problem here is that some people don't realize that, for $22M, it is fairly easy to obtain a raeally good LF.

    Our top 6 pitchers in terms of WAR were Schilling, Pedro, Arroyo, Timlin, Foulke & Williamson.  Pedro had his WAR of 4.8 for $17.5M.  The other 5 guys were Theo guys who had a combined WAR of 14.3 for $21.5M.  Again, it's not close.

    Part of the problem might be not understanding that when you inherit 25 guys, a lot of them will be on next year's team.  It isn't so much that you inherit guys, everyone does.  It is how good they are compared to how much they make.

    For example, Manny had a 3.8 WAR in 2004.  If CC has a 3.8 WAR next year, and we win the WS, I wouldn't credit Theo for winning the WS, as CC wouldn't have contributed anything more than what he was paid.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : Theo Epstein and Clay Buchholz are why the Red Sox don't have Roy Halladay. Epstein blew the Halladay deal and blew the chance to get Cliff Lee TWICE by refusing to part with Halladay.
    Posted by OurMan


    I don't blame Theo for not parting with Halladay.  He never did anything for us, but he's a great pitcher.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : I know right? This is just a mourning period for Theo Chicks. Epstein is gone after pretty much making every mistake and blunder Law predicted from day one. Sox with a decent GM had a team capable of winning 6 World Series titles in the 2000s. Epstein blew 4 rings...almost makes him an ideal adult film star.
    Posted by OurMan


    I have a pretty good opinion of Theo, but if you think he should've won 6 WSC's in 11 years, you have a higher opinion of him than anyone in the world.  Considering no other GM has won more than one this century, you think he should've 6?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: But this is not like the Varitek/Lowe-for-Slocumb robbery. ...whether it was Lajoie, Epstein, or AN Other that consummated the deal, the deal was two ten dollar bills for a twenty.  It's not a valid criticism of Theo whether one thinks he was involved or not.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars
    That was actually the Duke, who gets no love around here.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : That was actually the Duke, who gets no love around here.
    Posted by carnie


    Dan Duquette got no love because of the honeymoon with Epstein.
    Now that the truth about Theo is out, Duke is getting his due.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : Dan Duquette got no love because of the honeymoon with Epstein. Now that the truth about Theo is out, Duke is getting his due.
    Posted by OurMan
    Well, I agree with you about Duke.
     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.

    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success.:
    In Response to Re: Mazz: Theo Epstein had LITTLE to do with Sox success. : no other GM has won more than one this century there you go again stop it JB, Bcash has won 2 this century as well why didn't you finish the conversation about this last week
    Posted by pinstripezac
    Wow. JoeB with a mistake involving numbers? That needs to be saved somewhere.
     
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