His line so far in six appearances: 6.2 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 11 K , 9.00 GO/AO , .167 BAA
Posted by SpruceTrap87

You could argue that Beckett and Lester are #2's  Name the 14 AL starters you think are better than Beckett and Lester, and please, don't use 4-5 game short sample sizes as your foundation. The top 2 Sox starters are at worst, easily top #2 starters, not #3 starters as you called them. but I was being VERY generous by calling Buck a #3....... If you go by 2009-2011 numbers, he's clearly a #2 to top #3 starter in the AL. you need to focus more on how these guys look today vs what they did 3-4 years ago... I am totally aware of what these guys have done so far this year. I am not discounting their starts so far this year, but Beckett and Lester are traditional slow starters, and Buch is coming off an injury. I am not ready to claim his 5 game sample size this year is who he is and will be from here on out.  You need to focus on larger sample sizes.
Posted by moonslav59

Well no GM worth a fraction of his paycheck would make such a trade That's our biggest problem - we have too many #3 staters in this rotation I'd rather have two #1's and three #4's.......than five #3's........ If you are counting Lester, Beckett and Buch as #3 starters, you need to take a closer look at MLB.  Here, I'll do the research for you, and remember, Sox pitchers get no breaks for home park and strength of schedule as some pitchers on other AL teams do: 2009-2011 Out of the 70 top starters by IP (220+) in the AL (14 teams times 5 starters per team): WHIP: T12) Beckett  1.21  (A clear AL number 1 starter comparatively speaking) T12) Lester    1.21  (A clear AL number 1 starter) T23) Buch      1.27 (A clear AL number 2 starter) ERA: 6) Buch        3.10 (A clear AL #1 starter comparatively speaking) 11) Lester     3.37 (A clear #1 starter in the AL) 26) Beckett   3.97 (A clear #2 starter by ERA in the AL) xFIP: 4) Lester   3.29 (A top AL #1 starter in this category) 10) Beck   3.54 (A #1 AL starter again) 33) Buch  4.11  (A top  #3 starter in this category) If you take all of these respected categories together and make a composite, it is clear that Lester, Beckett and Buchholtz have been  #1 or at worst top #2 starters in the AL over the past 3 years. Our real issue is that we do not have quality #4 and 5 starters, and this year, our pen has suffered greatly by losing Papelbon and moving Bard to the rotation followed by the injury to Bailey and rough start by Melancon and others. There is no team in the AL from 2009-2011 that has a better top 3 starters by these numbers than the Sox.  (Sidenote: 3 of the top starters on all of these category lists are now in the NL: Halladay, Greinke and Cliff Lee.)
Posted by moonslav59

moon, I think we still have three above average pitchers in Clay, Josh and Jon but nobody dominating enough to call an ace.   We also agree "its probably not enough" and it won't be easy to address it without losing value somewhere else. The term "ace" is highly subjective. If you go by top 14 AL starters as "aces", then one could argue that Beckett and Lester squeek into the category based on a 3-4 year sample size, but if you want to call an ace someone who can pitch 220+ IP year in and year out, and can be counted on to be a top starter in 75+% of the seasons he pitches, then we have none. Hopefully we can turn this start around but help has to come from somewhere and I was pretty surprised and disappointed Cook didn't do better today.  It may take losing one of our best players to make this staff better.  I am confident that Beckett and Lester can pitch sub 3.00 baseball from here on out, but counting on Buch to be close to an ace is wishful thinking. I do think he can pitch like a good 2/3 starter. I think he is more likely to pitch like a 3 starter than a low 4 starter from here on out, and I don't think I am being a "homer" for saying that.  After Buch, we are hurting. We have several long-shots and projects and converted good relievers, but as I have said all winter, to be close to a favorite to win it all, we need a good 3 slot type starter added to the mix (assuming Bard goes back to the pen).
Posted by moonslav59

In Response to Re: Melancon Dominating AAA : Really.   You aren't going to include Buck as the reason why we are in this quagmire?  I guess this debate is clearly ovah!!!!!
Posted by andrewmitch

No kidding. Of ALL QUALIFIED pitchers in MLB, Clay Buchholz is dead last in  both ERA (8.69) and WHIP (1.90). Given those stats, Buchholz doesn't qualify as a #5. Lackey's numbers last year were great compared to what Buchholz has done so far. Stop the nonsense moon. The nonsense is you and other forming definitive judgements on a player based on a 29 IP sample size. His previous 350 IP must be thrown out the window, because he has stuggled as he has returned from a major injury. He's 27. He has stunk this year. Iam not saying otherwise. The point is, what is the liklihood that he pitches well, average, or poorly going forward. I don't think I am being absurd to expect him to return to the form of a 350 sample size vs a recent 29 IP sample size after having extended time away from the game. I don;t have supreme hope in Buch. That is one reason I ranted all winter about getting another top quality starter, just in case one of our top 3 didn't pitch well. I mentioned over and over that our top 3 have never had good seasons all at once. I'd say I was well aware of the possibilities that Buch or Beckett or Lester would stumble this year. I wanted us to try hard to get Floyd, or Wandy Rodriguez or the like. I still think we'd have a good shot had we done that, and kept Bard in the pen.
Posted by moonslav59

In Response to Re: Melancon Dominating AAA : I'm not saying that. Show me his numbers from 2009-2012. 
Posted by ADG

In Response to Re: Melancon Dominating AAA : No kidding. Of ALL QUALIFIED pitchers in MLB, Clay Buchholz is dead last in  both ERA (8.69) and WHIP (1.90). Given those stats, Buchholz doesn't qualify as a #5. Lackey's numbers last year were great compared to what Buchholz has done so far. Stop the nonsense moon.
Posted by ADG

OKAY, to the current discusssion on who we have that is a "quality or #1" starter... Let me ask this question: IF we decide to rebuild and cut all ties to the current team structure ( let us say next month)..... Who here does not think that Lester would be a HOT commodity to the rest of MLB?  And Why not? Who here does not think Beckett would become a HOT commodity on the market- AGAIN WHY NOT? Who thinks Bucholz would not be sought after.... and again WHY NOT? I think if you all have a bit of integrity while you think your way through this discussion... you will come up with the real answer to the question of whether this team has quality starters. MY belief is should the sox put Lester on the Market at the deadline he WILL be one of the hottest commocities in the game.  He throws LH, He has defeinetly got #1 stuff ( throwing 95 at times). and he has some of the most dominating stuff in the league when he is on.... IS NE ON?  NOPE!  but he has no hit quality movement and power.... just that he has been unable to harness it. Beckett- IF you are ignorant enough to think any contender would not have interest in him at the deadline if we went into rebuild mode... then YOU ARE KIDDING YOURSELF..  Again... he has quality stuff... However I believe father time is reaching up and biting him in the backside (early)...  That does not mean that he is not a quality pitcher with the ability to be dominant at times.... ( SO again he is a #1 or 2).... Buchholz is theone who does not have the tack record to call a #1 or #1 in my book.  He has been overpowering at times... but due to injury they have not been consitent and long-running periods of dominance... so "IF" you were going to say one of them is not a top of the rotation pitcher this would be your man.  HOWEVER, in saying that one must realize that when completely healthy he has gone 5-6 game streaks with almost no mistakes.  He has the stuff... does he have the health?
Posted by FenwayChuck

In Response to Re: Melancon Dominating AAA : Buchholz is coming of a serious back injury.  Did you honestly expect him to step right in where he left off?

In Response to Re: Melancon Dominating AAA :
Posted by moonslav59