Metrics mania.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Metrics mania.

    Let's look at the obsession with the trendy "metrics ".  OPS:  Nothing more than the sum of slugging pct. and on base pct.  These stats have been around forever. And how in the world are they given equal value in OPS ?  WAR: How many fans even know how this is computed ? The traditional stats tell you everything you need to know about a player's ability and worth. UZR: This is the worst. Check putouts , assists and fielding percentage to determine a player's defensive ability. Better yet , watch the games , although you obviously cannot watch them all. UZR is simply trusting someone else's opinion.  WHIP:  Very overrated stat. Totally ignores home runs and any extra base hits. Gives same value to an infield single as to a gap double.  Ignores being able to pitch out of a jam. Ignores game situations. A walk is sometimes as good as a hit, but usually a hit , especially an extra base hit is better. The bottom line is wins and losses. I do not totally discount the use of " Metrics " , but I think they have become very over valued. There are many things that make up a winning ball club , we should know what they are. Don't get carried away with being a stat man. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    Im not a fan of defensive metrics. Hitting metrics and pitching metrics can be rechecked with another offensive metric to make sure the one metric is correct. I'll admit, Im more old school but will look at more offensive metrics than I do defensive.

    Defensive metrics have been proved wrong with a number of players, Stephen Drew being one of them...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Im not a fan of defensive metrics. Hitting metrics and pitching metrics can be rechecked with another offensive metric to make sure the one metric is correct. I'll admit, Im more old school but will look at more offensive metrics than I do defensive.

    Defensive metrics have been proved wrong with a number of players, Stephen Drew being one of them...



    Okay. I'm as " old school " as it gets. Nothing against progress , but all that is new and trendy is not necessarily progress. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Let's look at the obsession with the trendy "metrics ".  OPS:  Nothing more than the sum of slugging pct. and on base pct.  These stats have been around forever. And how in the world are they given equal value in OPS ?  WAR: How many fans even know how this is computed ? The traditional stats tell you everything you need to know about a player's ability and worth. UZR: This is the worst. Check putouts , assists and fielding percentage to determine a player's defensive ability. Better yet , watch the games , although you obviously cannot watch them all. UZR is simply trusting someone else's opinion.  WHIP:  Very overrated stat. Totally ignores home runs and any extra base hits. Gives same value to an infield single as to a gap double.  Ignores being able to pitch out of a jam. Ignores game situations. A walk is sometimes as good as a hit, but usually a hit , especially an extra base hit is better. The bottom line is wins and losses. I do not totally discount the use of " Metrics " , but I think they have become very over valued. There are many things that make up a winning ball club , we should know what they are. Don't get carried away with being a stat man. 



    Amen Dgale! There are things you cannot measure! Im with you!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Im not a fan of defensive metrics. Hitting metrics and pitching metrics can be rechecked with another offensive metric to make sure the one metric is correct. I'll admit, Im more old school but will look at more offensive metrics than I do defensive.

    Defensive metrics have been proved wrong with a number of players, Stephen Drew being one of them...

     



    Okay. I'm as " old school " as it gets. Nothing against progress , but all that is new and trendy is not necessarily progress. 

     




    I agree that there are just some things that metrics can NOT quantify. Some metrics are good to see trends and stuff like that. But the Old school way takes into consideration what metrics can not.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     




    Why Kimmi? some of us get old before our time!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     




    I think it should be a balance between the two. But like I said, old school takes into consideration stuff that stats can not. The Human element.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    The new metrics are not meant to, nor were they ever menat to, take the place of old school stats or scouts.  They are intended to enhance and deepen our understanding of the game when used along with the traditional methods.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    The new metrics are not meant to, nor were they ever menat to, take the place of old school stats or scouts.  They are intended to enhance and deepen our understanding of the game when used along with the traditional methods.

     




    exactly

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to Promise4you2's comment:

    Why Kimmi? some of us get old before our time!




    I find the new stats very interesting and exciting.

    Bill James is my idol.  ;-)

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    The new metrics are not meant to, nor were they ever menat to, take the place of old school stats or scouts.  They are intended to enhance and deepen our understanding of the game when used along with the traditional methods.

     

    exactly

     




    Exactly.  So, I don't understand why people (not you) want to disregard the new stats. 

    They give you a much deeper understanding of a player's performance and value than the traditional stats alone.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     



    Don't be sad.  Be happy. Life is good. Dig it while it's here. It won't be here forever.  We all have our own opinions about baseball and everything else.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to Promise4you2's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Let's look at the obsession with the trendy "metrics ".  OPS:  Nothing more than the sum of slugging pct. and on base pct.  These stats have been around forever. And how in the world are they given equal value in OPS ?  WAR: How many fans even know how this is computed ? The traditional stats tell you everything you need to know about a player's ability and worth. UZR: This is the worst. Check putouts , assists and fielding percentage to determine a player's defensive ability. Better yet , watch the games , although you obviously cannot watch them all. UZR is simply trusting someone else's opinion.  WHIP:  Very overrated stat. Totally ignores home runs and any extra base hits. Gives same value to an infield single as to a gap double.  Ignores being able to pitch out of a jam. Ignores game situations. A walk is sometimes as good as a hit, but usually a hit , especially an extra base hit is better. The bottom line is wins and losses. I do not totally discount the use of " Metrics " , but I think they have become very over valued. There are many things that make up a winning ball club , we should know what they are. Don't get carried away with being a stat man. 

     



    Amen Dgale! There are things you cannot measure! Im with you!

     



    Thank you. 

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    Didn't know about WHIP not counting homers and extra base hits, I now value that measure less.  The defensive metric UZR seems bogus, not a believer.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     



    It shouldn't make you sad.  It's the natural order of things.  BB is like a microcosm of life.  There are a million stats out there every day telling you what to do.  And to varying degrees, some people will read them and take them to heart, and some will read them and ignore them, at their own risk.

    This, of course, is only baseball, but do you think any of the people that do well in our fantasy leagues ignores these stas?

    If fantasy BB was real life, then the people that were well-versed in the latest stats would have all the money, and the ones that went by the back of the baseball card stats, would have none.

    And I'm not saying that as an expert.  I try to keep up, but there are younger people who started off with OPS+, wOBA, etc., and are now graduating to advanced metrics.

    The only thing that keeps me going is the ability to understand that I don't understand the new stuff, and the acknowledgement of the fact that, just because I don't understand, doesn't make it meaningless.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Didn't know about WHIP not counting homers and extra base hits, I now value that measure less.  The defensive metric UZR seems bogus, not a believer.



    Whip is good, but limited.  You can survive a higher Whip if you have a good GB/FB ratio.  As kimmi mentioned, stats have to used in conjunction with each other.

    UZR is okay over a long period of time, but is almost completely unreliable over one season.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    This thread makes me sad.  Very, very sad.

     

     




    I think it should be a balance between the two. But like I said, old school takes into consideration stuff that stats can not. The Human element.

     



    The human element is more important when the kids are just starting out.  The kids that never leave the park get ahead.  The kids like Matt Bush, who thought they owned the world before they ever left the neighborhood, don't.

    But once you've been playing in the pros for a while, your production is pretty predictable.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Didn't know about WHIP not counting homers and extra base hits, I now value that measure less.  The defensive metric UZR seems bogus, not a believer.



    WHIP is simply walks plus hits per innings pitched. It gives no value to extra base hits, pitching around a hitter , pitching with men on base, game situations , pitching deep into games , getting strikeouts when needed , etc.   It has a certain value , but I prefer won / loss records , in conjunction with ERA , when evaluating a pitcher. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Let's look at the obsession with the trendy "metrics ".  OPS:  Nothing more than the sum of slugging pct. and on base pct.  These stats have been around forever. And how in the world are they given equal value in OPS ?  WAR: How many fans even know how this is computed ? The traditional stats tell you everything you need to know about a player's ability and worth. UZR: This is the worst. Check putouts , assists and fielding percentage to determine a player's defensive ability. Better yet , watch the games , although you obviously cannot watch them all. UZR is simply trusting someone else's opinion.  WHIP:  Very overrated stat. Totally ignores home runs and any extra base hits. Gives same value to an infield single as to a gap double.  Ignores being able to pitch out of a jam. Ignores game situations. A walk is sometimes as good as a hit, but usually a hit , especially an extra base hit is better. The bottom line is wins and losses. I do not totally discount the use of " Metrics " , but I think they have become very over valued. There are many things that make up a winning ball club , we should know what they are. Don't get carried away with being a stat man. 



    The stats give you an uncanny ability to predict wins and losses.  OPS and OPSa tell you how many runs you'll score and allow.  The Py W/L is usually within a handful of games.

    The correlation between scoring and OPS is really quite high.  Last year, the average MLB team had an OPS of .724.  Of the 14 teams that scored .724 or above, 13 of the 14 were above average in RPG.

    The year before, of the 14 teams that had a higher than average OPS, all 14 teams had higher than average RPG.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    advanced metrics help you get a clearer picture than using just old school stats.

    every stat is useful (except W/L for pitchers). They should all be used in conjunction with eachother to determine the calibur of player you are dealing with. Even with all the stats in the world there ARE things that are immeasurable..

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

     

    Didn't know about WHIP not counting homers and extra base hits, I now value that measure less.  The defensive metric UZR seems bogus, not a believer.

     



    WHIP is simply walks plus hits per innings pitched. It gives no value to extra base hits, pitching around a hitter , pitching with men on base, game situations , pitching deep into games , getting strikeouts when needed , etc.   It has a certain value , but I prefer won / loss records , in conjunction with ERA , when evaluating a pitcher. 

     



    I usually go by K/W, but pitching is much more complicated than hitting.  if you conistently keep the ball down in the zone, then it's impossible to compare weaker K/W, and weaker Whips with someone who allows a lot of flyballs.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Let's look at the obsession with the trendy "metrics ".  OPS:  Nothing more than the sum of slugging pct. and on base pct.  These stats have been around forever. And how in the world are they given equal value in OPS ?  WAR: How many fans even know how this is computed ? The traditional stats tell you everything you need to know about a player's ability and worth. UZR: This is the worst. Check putouts , assists and fielding percentage to determine a player's defensive ability. Better yet , watch the games , although you obviously cannot watch them all. UZR is simply trusting someone else's opinion.  WHIP:  Very overrated stat. Totally ignores home runs and any extra base hits. Gives same value to an infield single as to a gap double.  Ignores being able to pitch out of a jam. Ignores game situations. A walk is sometimes as good as a hit, but usually a hit , especially an extra base hit is better. The bottom line is wins and losses. I do not totally discount the use of " Metrics " , but I think they have become very over valued. There are many things that make up a winning ball club , we should know what they are. Don't get carried away with being a stat man. 

     



    The stats give you an uncanny ability to predict wins and losses.  OPS and OPSa tell you how many runs you'll score and allow.  The Py W/L is usually within a handful of games.

     

    The correlation between scoring and OPS is really quite high.  Last year, the average MLB team had an OPS of .724.  Of the 14 teams that scored .724 or above, 13 of the 14 were above average in RPG.

    The year before, of the 14 teams that had a higher than average OPS, all 14 teams had higher than average RPG.



    Then why not just look at runs scored ?  And allowed ?  

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: Metrics mania.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    The new metrics are not meant to, nor were they ever menat to, take the place of old school stats or scouts.  They are intended to enhance and deepen our understanding of the game when used along with the traditional methods.

     

    exactly

     

     




    Exactly.  So, I don't understand why people (not you) want to disregard the new stats. 

     

    They give you a much deeper understanding of a player's performance and value than the traditional stats alone.

     




    A players value cannot always be measure by metrics. I rememeber playing little league ball, I was the star, the kid that played the last inning because he was on the team was also my friend. he made me smile, he made me play better and he never complained because he sat on the pine. He made me better. What metrics can account for that? the mental part of the game can never ever be measured kimmi. just my thoughts!

     
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