Re: Metrics mania.
posted at 4/16/2013 1:59 PM EDT
Of course it is a team win , but the pitcher is the biggest part of that. That is why the pitcher is given the win or loss.
No, that's where you are wrong. Dempster was the biggest part of that win, but Bailey blew the save and got the win. It's a horrible pitcher stat that should be way down on any list for evaluating a pitcher's skillset. (Below team W-L records in your starts)
I don't put all my faith in a pitcher's won / loss record. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that you also have to look at ERA when evaluating a pitcher's effectiveness.
I get your position. Just because we don't agree and continue pointing out hos useless W-L is, does not mean we do not get your position. The fact that you choose maybe the 3rd or 4th best stat (ERA) and the 20th best stat (pitcher W-L record) -- Ok maybe 10th best-- to make the major part of your case for who are the best pitchers, is an arguable and tenuous position.
If a pitcher has a good won / loss record and a low ERA, he is a top pitcher , no matter what WHIP may say.
So, run support, park factors, team bullpen and defense do not affect that?
Over the course of time , the best pitchers will be the ones with the best records and / or the lowest ERAs.
False. Pitchers on teams with poor offenses and defenses and or in small parks will hardly ever be ahead of pitchers on good teams in big parks.
I know there is value in all of the available stats , but to suggest that a pitcher's won / loss is no more relevant than the color of his underwear , is beyond inane and preposterous.
Who said that?
Saying it might be the 20th best stat, is not saying it is useless.
ERA+ is clearly better than ERA. If you can't see that, there's nothing more to say. Even tERA and SIERA are better than ERA.
WHIP or OBP against tells a lot about a pitcher's effectiveness at getting batters out- a big part of being effective. Way more telling than W-Ls.
Slg% against tells if a pitcher is getting hit hard or not, or somewhere inbetween.
OPS against is better. Wat better.
K/9 or K/BB rates and ratios tell part of the story as well, but FIP and xFIP may be even better. All are better than a pitcher's W-L record.
QS% is better than W-L record (unless one SP has 18 GS'd and another 33).