Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    I know what the scouts have said about his defense, and I suspect a switch to 3rd at some point.  However it's been those same scouts that have said he has made drastic improvements on his D.  Baseball America and Soxprospects both figure him to stay at short stop at least for the beginning of his career now where's in the past the saw a more imminent move.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from HailToTheKing. Show HailToTheKing's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes but scouts are just assuming he will outgrow the position because they assume he will lose some atheticism as he grows.  I don't think he will grow that much more, he is young and looks like he will fill out a little bit but he's already a big boy.  Scouts assume he will lose athleticism as he grows but there are plenty of large and above average SS out there and Bogaerts very well could be himself.  I think the "drew made plays Bogaerts wouldn't" is a little unfair, because if we have a player preference it's too easy to assume that without any way of ever really knowing.

    Almost every scouting report I have ever read on Bogey mentions 3b being his possible landing spot. I trust their eyes and skills more than small sample size observations.

     

    But yes I'll concede that "right now" Drew is a better defender, but Bogaerts is an elite bat and an average defender.  If a guy can give you average defense and elite offense, you don't move them.

    You do if he can be an elite offensive 3Bman and a plus fielding 3Bman within a year. Plus-plus is better than plus-average.

     

    Also remember this, Drew is entering the age where he can lose a step any year now.  Drew 30-35 won't be 25-30 Drew.  Meanwhile Bogaerts will play all of next year at his age 21 season.  Often players are rushed to the majors because either their bat or their glove is ready but not the other (see Jose Iglesias).  I think Bogaerts has almost been the anti Iglesias.  Elite Offense that can play in the big leagues but a glove that is still developing.  I think he is starting to round into a plus defender and while I don't think he will win any gold gloves I think he will play above average defense at SS for at least some time.  With his bat....you don't move Bogaerts if he can give you average defense.'

    I'm not sure he ever gets plus at SS on defense. There are a lot of really good fielding MLB SSs today. For him to become the 14th best defensive SS, I feel he needs to improve a lot.

     

    We can have an entire left side of the infield for less than 1 million dollars in Bogaerts and WMB and I THINK it will be a very good and above average one too.

    I don't think about planning on moving Bogaerts until he actually outplays the position because he is much more valuable as a SS. 

    I get the offensive plus at SS brings to a club. When comparing Bogey's possible offense to the league average, we could see a huge disparity, however, MLB is not what it was "back in the day".

    3B is no longer a big offensive position. This year, the league average 3B OPS was .715. The league average SS OPs was .675. While the 40 point differential is significant, it's not what it used to be. If Bogey can quickly give us a plus .800 OPS, that would be a huge differential over most team's 3Bmen, especially our own team .692 3B number in 2013 that was bossted by Iggy and Bogey.

    To me, the fielding at SS is essential. Drew proved it during the playoffs.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree with you Moon.  I would take an infield of Boggy, Drew, Pedey and Napps over WMB and Boggy on the left.  I'm usually not a 'defense' guy but the way this team and the starting staff is made up I really think it's in their best interest to have as good a defense up the middle as possible.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes but scouts are just assuming he will outgrow the position because they assume he will lose some atheticism as he grows.  I don't think he will grow that much more, he is young and looks like he will fill out a little bit but he's already a big boy.  Scouts assume he will lose athleticism as he grows but there are plenty of large and above average SS out there and Bogaerts very well could be himself.  I think the "drew made plays Bogaerts wouldn't" is a little unfair, because if we have a player preference it's too easy to assume that without any way of ever really knowing.

    Almost every scouting report I have ever read on Bogey mentions 3b being his possible landing spot. I trust their eyes and skills more than small sample size observations.

     

    But yes I'll concede that "right now" Drew is a better defender, but Bogaerts is an elite bat and an average defender.  If a guy can give you average defense and elite offense, you don't move them.

    You do if he can be an elite offensive 3Bman and a plus fielding 3Bman within a year. Plus-plus is better than plus-average.

     

    Also remember this, Drew is entering the age where he can lose a step any year now.  Drew 30-35 won't be 25-30 Drew.  Meanwhile Bogaerts will play all of next year at his age 21 season.  Often players are rushed to the majors because either their bat or their glove is ready but not the other (see Jose Iglesias).  I think Bogaerts has almost been the anti Iglesias.  Elite Offense that can play in the big leagues but a glove that is still developing.  I think he is starting to round into a plus defender and while I don't think he will win any gold gloves I think he will play above average defense at SS for at least some time.  With his bat....you don't move Bogaerts if he can give you average defense.'

    I'm not sure he ever gets plus at SS on defense. There are a lot of really good fielding MLB SSs today. For him to become the 14th best defensive SS, I feel he needs to improve a lot.

     

    We can have an entire left side of the infield for less than 1 million dollars in Bogaerts and WMB and I THINK it will be a very good and above average one too.

    I don't think about planning on moving Bogaerts until he actually outplays the position because he is much more valuable as a SS. 

    I get the offensive plus at SS brings to a club. When comparing Bogey's possible offense to the league average, we could see a huge disparity, however, MLB is not what it was "back in the day".

    3B is no longer a big offensive position. This year, the league average 3B OPS was .715. The league average SS OPs was .675. While the 40 point differential is significant, it's not what it used to be. If Bogey can quickly give us a plus .800 OPS, that would be a huge differential over most team's 3Bmen, especially our own team .692 3B number in 2013 that was bossted by Iggy and Bogey.

    To me, the fielding at SS is essential. Drew proved it during the playoffs.

    [/QUOTE]
    Out of curiosity, Moon, what do you think the odds of Middlebrooks & Bogaerts NOT starting on the left side of the infield are next year?  I agree that steady defense at SS is huge, and I posted several times last year that Drew was better than the "stats," and one of the reasons was because he doesn't get "rattled" in a big spot.

     I've heard that some people worried about Iglesias' "make up" and he might be the kind of guy who is all "flash" and might not be the kind of guy who has the right "focus" or "attitude," yet everything I know about Xander Bogaerts tells me just the opposite.  This Front Office puts a lot of emphasis on a players "make up" and they obviously have first hand knowledge of those things, where the common fan has to rely on the "stats," maybe to a fault...I'm actually excited to see what Xander Bogaerts can do as a full time all around SS next year, as he is the best all-around prospect I've seen since Nomar...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    They didn't give Bogey much time to learn 3B in AAA as I suggested as long ago as last spring. He got 31 chances at 3B in Pawtucket in 2013. 3B can and should not be learned overnight. The foot work is different. The throwing angle is often different as well.

    My guess is if he works out at 3B this winter and plays exclusively there in ST 2014, he'll be as good at 3B then as he is at SS right now, or at least close enough.

    I don't see Bogey as becoming any better than an average fielding SS. I know I have a bias towards great fielding SS, but it seems to me like getting a cheap defensive whiz SS, and moving Bogey to 3B would allow us to use Middy with Carp at 1B and save a ton of cash, or trade Middy for a catcher or CF (maybe as part of a package deal).

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that with some experience Bogaerts could become a good third baseman but I feel a talent such as Bogaerts plays where he will play best. 

    Best is a relative word.

    Let's assume right now Bogey is the 25th (out of 30) best fielding SS in MLB at the start of 2014.

    What if after working out all winter at 3B, and playing 3B all Sprint Training, he can be the 20th best fielding 3Bman? Would you think we should move him?

    What if he started out 2014 as the 25th best fielding 3Bman and maybe improved slightly over the season? Would moving him be okay then?

    See where I'm going with this?

    Of course Bogey feels more comfortable at SS and probably feels like he does better there than at third, but if he can become a plus 3Bman faster than he can become an average SS, I say move him now and upgrade our SS defense.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I know what the scouts have said about his defense, and I suspect a switch to 3rd at some point.  However it's been those same scouts that have said he has made drastic improvements on his D.  Baseball America and Soxprospects both figure him to stay at short stop at least for the beginning of his career now where's in the past the saw a more imminent move.

    [/QUOTE]

    I expect him to stay at SS too, but not because it's his best position. It's because we have no other SS, and Middy shows promise at 3B>

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    Out of curiosity, Moon, what do you think the odds of Middlebrooks & Bogaerts NOT starting on the left side of the infield are next year?

    I'd say if everyone is healthy, there's about a 97% chance we see Bogey at SS and Middy at 3B opening day 2014.

    That doesn't mean I have to like it. It also doesn't mean I'll blow a gasket if it does happen. Middy has a lot of potential, but his super low OBP scares me. His fielding issues are scary too.

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    Red Sox Should Not Trust Will Middlebrooks As Everyday Starter

     

    Mike Moustakas Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

     

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

    The news on Daniel Bard just gets sadder:

    http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2013/11/17/1117-saturdays-winter-league-games/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I agree that the Red Sox probably have little choice but to give Will Middlebrooks another chance.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

    The news on Daniel Bard just gets sadder:

    http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2013/11/17/1117-saturdays-winter-league-games/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I agree that the Red Sox probably have little choice but to give Will Middlebrooks another chance.

    [/QUOTE]

    To say the Sox have "little choice" but to give Middlebrooks another chance is actually comical, but you keep at it, Hill.  The Sox might actually like the "no choice" option of Will Middlebrooks as the everyday third baseman.

     If the Sox Front Office were as wrong about their players as you are, then maybe that would be the case, but fortunately for Sox fans, this Front Office has a clue and doesn't rely on "WAR" for every transaction.  If this kid fails miserably, you DO deserve the right to gloat.  After all, you were pretty much dead wrong about everything you posted over the last year regarding the Red Sox.  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ... as reportedly speculated in this morning's column from the Globe's Nick Cafardo:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/cafardo-on-trumbo-ethier-kemp-arroyo-red-sox.html

    Because of his low on-base percentage, Mark Trumbo would be a poor replacement for Mike Napoli.

    Will Middlebrooks' ceiling might be Trumbo, so the proposed trade could be enticing to the Angels, who need pitching and who could use Felix Doubront to replace lefthander Jason Vargas in the rotation.

    Thoughts?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it would a bad, bad, mistake to trade Doubrant. Pitchers with his potential (especially lefties) don't come along that often.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ... as reportedly speculated in this morning's column from the Globe's Nick Cafardo:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/cafardo-on-trumbo-ethier-kemp-arroyo-red-sox.html

    Because of his low on-base percentage, Mark Trumbo would be a poor replacement for Mike Napoli.

    Will Middlebrooks' ceiling might be Trumbo, so the proposed trade could be enticing to the Angels, who need pitching and who could use Felix Doubront to replace lefthander Jason Vargas in the rotation.

    Thoughts?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it would a bad, bad, mistake to trade Doubrant. Pitchers with his potential (especially lefties) don't come along that often.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's a lot easier to find a first baseman than it is to find good starting pitching, or decent starting pitching at that.  I wouldn't go away trading player just so you can have a power hitting firstbaseman.  In the end it's the sum of the offense as a whole that generates results and the Sox proved that this year.  If I'm trading away from my starting pitchers then I would rather send a package for an elite offensive player in a more premium defensive position like CF or Catcher etc etc. 

    I'm sorry but between Nava/Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Napoli/other FA I think the Sox will be fine at 1b next year.  I'd rather plug Middlebrooks over at 1B than trade for Trumbo.

    I have a feeling too that people who like Trumbo are going to be very disappointing if he ever finds his way to Boston. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

    The news on Daniel Bard just gets sadder:

    http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2013/11/17/1117-saturdays-winter-league-games/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I agree that the Red Sox probably have little choice but to give Will Middlebrooks another chance.

    [/QUOTE]

    To say the Sox have "little choice" but to give Middlebrooks another chance is actually comical, but you keep at it, Hill.  The Sox might actually like the "no choice" option of Will Middlebrooks as the everyday third baseman.

     If the Sox Front Office were as wrong about their players as you are, then maybe that would be the case, but fortunately for Sox fans, this Front Office has a clue and doesn't rely on "WAR" for every transaction.  If this kid fails miserably, you DO deserve the right to gloat.  After all, you were pretty much dead wrong about everything you posted over the last year regarding the Red Sox.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    Like I was advocating for one more year of Lester entering 2013 I will advocate one more year for Middy. If he is still flailing about come mid-August 2014 then it is time to move on. It is quite simple.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    I'm sorry but between Nava/Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Napoli/other FA I think the Sox will be fine at 1b next year.  I'd rather plug Middlebrooks over at 1B than trade for Trumbo.

    Agree. Don't forget Carp and at NL parks: Papi.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    yes Carp as well, he belongs in that group.  I have speculated if either him or Nava might become expendable depending on what they do in CF/1B on the free agent market.  But in the absence of them bringing in a few guys he is definitely right there in the mix.  I'm not sure how he would do in more of a starters role but at the very least we know that he can provide offensive value in short stints, and while his defense is a little sub par he does somewhat mitigate that by having the versatility to play multiple positions. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

    The news on Daniel Bard just gets sadder:

    http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2013/11/17/1117-saturdays-winter-league-games/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I agree that the Red Sox probably have little choice but to give Will Middlebrooks another chance.

    [/QUOTE]

    To say the Sox have "little choice" but to give Middlebrooks another chance is actually comical, but you keep at it, Hill.  The Sox might actually like the "no choice" option of Will Middlebrooks as the everyday third baseman.

     If the Sox Front Office were as wrong about their players as you are, then maybe that would be the case, but fortunately for Sox fans, this Front Office has a clue and doesn't rely on "WAR" for every transaction.  If this kid fails miserably, you DO deserve the right to gloat.  After all, you were pretty much dead wrong about everything you posted over the last year regarding the Red Sox.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he was demoted because they "doubt his ability."  He'll either be the starting 3rd baseman going into next season, or in an unlikely scenario in my opinion, he will be traded.  He isn't going to be part of the 1st base equation in some "musical chairs" infield as you have suggested.  That I do know.  He's certainly shown enough to get a longer look, and my guess is he definitely will, as right handed power like his doesn't exactly grow on trees...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ... as reportedly speculated in this morning's column from the Globe's Nick Cafardo:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/cafardo-on-trumbo-ethier-kemp-arroyo-red-sox.html

    Because of his low on-base percentage, Mark Trumbo would be a poor replacement for Mike Napoli.

    Will Middlebrooks' ceiling might be Trumbo, so the proposed trade could be enticing to the Angels, who need pitching and who could use Felix Doubront to replace lefthander Jason Vargas in the rotation.

    Thoughts?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it would a bad, bad, mistake to trade Doubrant. Pitchers with his potential (especially lefties) don't come along that often.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's a lot easier to find a first baseman than it is to find good starting pitching, or decent starting pitching at that.  I wouldn't go away trading player just so you can have a power hitting firstbaseman.  In the end it's the sum of the offense as a whole that generates results and the Sox proved that this year.  If I'm trading away from my starting pitchers then I would rather send a package for an elite offensive player in a more premium defensive position like CF or Catcher etc etc. 

    I'm sorry but between Nava/Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Napoli/other FA I think the Sox will be fine at 1b next year.  I'd rather plug Middlebrooks over at 1B than trade for Trumbo.

    I have a feeling too that people who like Trumbo are going to be very disappointing if he ever finds his way to Boston. 

    [/QUOTE]


    I don't get the Trumbo infatuation either, unless people are looking at his 34 HR and nothing else.

    If we wanted an all-power, low-OBP type player for first base, I'd sign Mark Reynolds...at least he wouldn't cost any players or a draft pick to acquire.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ... as reportedly speculated in this morning's column from the Globe's Nick Cafardo:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/cafardo-on-trumbo-ethier-kemp-arroyo-red-sox.html

    Because of his low on-base percentage, Mark Trumbo would be a poor replacement for Mike Napoli.

    Will Middlebrooks' ceiling might be Trumbo, so the proposed trade could be enticing to the Angels, who need pitching and who could use Felix Doubront to replace lefthander Jason Vargas in the rotation.

    Thoughts?

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it would a bad, bad, mistake to trade Doubrant. Pitchers with his potential (especially lefties) don't come along that often.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's a lot easier to find a first baseman than it is to find good starting pitching, or decent starting pitching at that.  I wouldn't go away trading player just so you can have a power hitting firstbaseman.  In the end it's the sum of the offense as a whole that generates results and the Sox proved that this year.  If I'm trading away from my starting pitchers then I would rather send a package for an elite offensive player in a more premium defensive position like CF or Catcher etc etc. 

    I'm sorry but between Nava/Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Napoli/other FA I think the Sox will be fine at 1b next year.  I'd rather plug Middlebrooks over at 1B than trade for Trumbo.

    I have a feeling too that people who like Trumbo are going to be very disappointing if he ever finds his way to Boston. 

    [/QUOTE]


    I don't get the Trumbo infatuation either, unless people are looking at his 34 HR and nothing else.

    If we wanted an all-power, low-OBP type player for first base, I'd sign Mark Reynolds...at least he wouldn't cost any players or a draft pick to acquire.

    [/QUOTE]

    The home runs are the only thing enticing, and in his first 162 games Will Middlebrooks hit as many as Trumbo averages in a season.  It's not as if Trumbo walks a lot, or doesn't strike out a lot, or provides good defense.  I just don't see the advantage other than having a clone of WMB who has a better track record, but WMB very likely is the same profile of an offensive player who will come much cheaper.  The idea of trading him + a pitcher to pay more for the same offensive production is just absurd....IMHO that is. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    If we wanted an all-power, low-OBP type player for first base, I'd sign Mark Reynolds...at least he wouldn't cost any players or a draft pick to acquire.

    Mark Reynolds has a career OBP that is 30 points higher than Mark Trumbo's career OBP.

    One could argue that Mark Trumbo is a poor man's Mark Reynolds.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he was demoted because they "doubt his ability."  He'll either be the starting 3rd baseman going into next season, or in an unlikely scenario in my opinion, he will be traded.  He isn't going to be part of the 1st base equation in some "musical chairs" infield as you have suggested.  That I do know.  He's certainly shown enough to get a longer look, and my guess is he definitely will, as right handed power like his doesn't exactly grow on trees...

    I agree, it is highly unlikely Ben does musical chairs with our IF this winter, but to me, strengthening 3 positions defensively by signing a glove whiz SS is not a bad idea.

    I agree, Sox management values Middlebrooks "ability" and potential, but certainly they must have serious doubts after what happened in 2013.

    They "musical chaired" two guys last year when demoting Middy twice (Iggy and Bogey). It's not like they haven't shown they are against totally the idea. Neither Iggy or Bogey had much experience at all at 3B when they were thrust into the job. That should tell you what little faith they had in Middy at those two points of 2013.

    Middy's got a lot of proving to do this spring and early next season.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he was demoted because they "doubt his ability."  He'll either be the starting 3rd baseman going into next season, or in an unlikely scenario in my opinion, he will be traded.  He isn't going to be part of the 1st base equation in some "musical chairs" infield as you have suggested.  That I do know.  He's certainly shown enough to get a longer look, and my guess is he definitely will, as right handed power like his doesn't exactly grow on trees...

    I agree, it is highly unlikely Ben does musical chairs with our IF this winter, but to me, strengthening 3 positions defensively by signing a glove whiz SS is not a bad idea.

    I agree, Sox management values Middlebrooks "ability" and potential, but certainly they must have serious doubts after what happened in 2013.

    They "musical chaired" two guys last year when demoting Middy twice (Iggy and Bogey). It's not like they haven't shown they are against totally the idea. Neither Iggy or Bogey had much experience at all at 3B when they were thrust into the job. That should tell you what little faith they had in Middy at those two points of 2013.

    Middy's got a lot of proving to do this spring and early next season.

    [/QUOTE]

    They didn't play musical chairs at all, Moon.  Players changing positions was done out of necessity.  They weren't rotating guys through the infield as you suggest and they aren't going to start now.  They need to find out if Middlebrooks can be the every day 3rd baseman & not some platoon corner infielder.  That's not the way you develop a player.  Same thing with Bogaerts.  They need to see if he can be the every day SS for the foreseeable future.  It's not going to help his development to bounce him back & forth between SS & 3rd, so to say the Sox are "open to moving guys all around the infield" is incorrect.  They may give Middlebrooks some reps at 1st to help out in a pinch, but they aren't going put him in any kind of platoon.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Red Sox Should Not Trust Will Middlebrooks As Everyday Starter

     

    Mike Moustakas Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

     

    Not all will always work out just because the player is on our team.... Moustakas is the same age as Will, and let us not forget about Daniel Bard.

    Having said that I prefer to give Middlebrooks one more year to get it right.

    [/QUOTE]

    I believe the Sox will, and should, give WMB a full year with no injuries to prove himself at 3b. Cecchini should be ready in 2015. Bogaerts will be at SS until he proves he shouldnt be. Besides maybe filling out a bit, hes not going to get any bigger at 21yo. I love his makeup. The way he handled himself in the playoffs was a great sign of things to come. I think he will be an average to above average SS. I worry more about Middy's OBP and defense. Hopefully he can put it all together because his raw power is a beautiful thing.

    Speaking of Bard, did you see what happened to him? The kid has hit roick bottom. Not sure if he will ever get it back at 27yo.

    http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/11/17/daniel-bards-struggles-continue-while-pitching-in-puerto-rico/

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he was demoted because they "doubt his ability."  He'll either be the starting 3rd baseman going into next season, or in an unlikely scenario in my opinion, he will be traded.  He isn't going to be part of the 1st base equation in some "musical chairs" infield as you have suggested.  That I do know.  He's certainly shown enough to get a longer look, and my guess is he definitely will, as right handed power like his doesn't exactly grow on trees...

    I agree, it is highly unlikely Ben does musical chairs with our IF this winter, but to me, strengthening 3 positions defensively by signing a glove whiz SS is not a bad idea.

    I agree, Sox management values Middlebrooks "ability" and potential, but certainly they must have serious doubts after what happened in 2013.

    They "musical chaired" two guys last year when demoting Middy twice (Iggy and Bogey). It's not like they haven't shown they are against totally the idea. Neither Iggy or Bogey had much experience at all at 3B when they were thrust into the job. That should tell you what little faith they had in Middy at those two points of 2013.

    Middy's got a lot of proving to do this spring and early next season.

    [/QUOTE]

    They didn't play musical chairs at all, Moon.  Players changing positions was done out of necessity.  They weren't rotating guys through the infield as you suggest and they aren't going to start now.  They need to find out if Middlebrooks can be the every day 3rd baseman & not some platoon corner infielder.  That's not the way you develop a player.  Same thing with Bogaerts.  They need to see if he can be the every day SS for the foreseeable future.  It's not going to help his development to bounce him back & forth between SS & 3rd, so to say the Sox are "open to moving guys all around the infield" is incorrect.  They may give Middlebrooks some reps at 1st to help out in a pinch, but they aren't going put him in any kind of platoon.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Middy was not hurt in the playoffs. They benched him for a guy who barely played 3B at all his whole career in Bogey. They obviously lost confidence in Middy much in the same way as they did with Salty.

    The first demotion of Middy could be blamed on an injury, but the fact remains, his numbers were horrendous before they sent him down to AAA.  He was at .201/.234/.408/.642 on May 23rd and .192/.228/.389/.617 on June 20th (his last game before being sent down. Those number were actually greatly inflated by the one game he went 4 for 5 with 3 HRs and a dbl. Without that one game he'd have been at 

    198 AB/35 Hits with 12 2Bs and 6 Hrs.

    .177/.209/.328/.537

    If he was truly sent down to AAA due to injury, why did he start playing within a week and then play almost 6 weeks in AAA before coming back to Boston shortly after Iggy was traded?

    I really can see a strong case to be made that Sox management lost confidence in Middy at least twice in 2013. That does not mean they gave up on him or don't expect better in 2014, but I am certain they have not planned on 150 games by Middy at 3B next year without some kind of serious contingency plan.

    As much as Middy's offense was scary, his defense was way worse than 2012. That's one reason I think Bogey might be able to become a better fielding 3Bman than Middy by the end of spring training, but if Middy regains his form and maybe improves a little more, then perhaps Bogey would take a long time to catch Middy's D.

    Regardless, there are many defensive options at SS that are better than Bogey, and I also think that by the end of ST, Middy could be a better fielding 1Bman than Nava, Papi, and Carp. I see a good chance we could improve 3 key defensive positions by just signing a SS defensive whiz. (I know the chances are slight, but I can still have my opinion here).

    SS: Barnes> Bogey 

    3B: Bogey => Middy

    1B: Middy > Nava/Carp/Papi

    Plus, we save a ton of cash by not signing a big named 1Bman.

    We use the money to boost OF and C and the pen by more than what we could do by signing someone like Napoli.

    Don't get me wrong, I want Napoli back, and I'd be fine with Bogey at SS and Middy at 3B as long as we have a good utility guy in case Middy struggles.

    I like the flex this allows:

    SS: Barnes/Bogey

    3B: Bogey/Middy

    1B: Carp/Middy/Nava (Papi at NL parks)

    LF: Nava/Gomes

    RF: Vict/Nava

    If Middy and Carp do great, Barnes becomes a utility IF'er. If one struggles, we still have a nice set-up that improves the D at least. If we get an OF boost in leau of a 1Bman, Nava could take up the slack of a struggling Middy by playing 1B.

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sox management did demote Middy twice last year, so I think it's safe to say they have their doubts about the 2014 Middy, WAR aside.

    The .320 AAA OBP and .294 MLB OBP could be a big concern as well, not to mention his fielding issue that surfaced in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think he was demoted because they "doubt his ability."  He'll either be the starting 3rd baseman going into next season, or in an unlikely scenario in my opinion, he will be traded.  He isn't going to be part of the 1st base equation in some "musical chairs" infield as you have suggested.  That I do know.  He's certainly shown enough to get a longer look, and my guess is he definitely will, as right handed power like his doesn't exactly grow on trees...

    I agree, it is highly unlikely Ben does musical chairs with our IF this winter, but to me, strengthening 3 positions defensively by signing a glove whiz SS is not a bad idea.

    I agree, Sox management values Middlebrooks "ability" and potential, but certainly they must have serious doubts after what happened in 2013.

    They "musical chaired" two guys last year when demoting Middy twice (Iggy and Bogey). It's not like they haven't shown they are against totally the idea. Neither Iggy or Bogey had much experience at all at 3B when they were thrust into the job. That should tell you what little faith they had in Middy at those two points of 2013.

    Middy's got a lot of proving to do this spring and early next season.

    [/QUOTE]

    They didn't play musical chairs at all, Moon.  Players changing positions was done out of necessity.  They weren't rotating guys through the infield as you suggest and they aren't going to start now.  They need to find out if Middlebrooks can be the every day 3rd baseman & not some platoon corner infielder.  That's not the way you develop a player.  Same thing with Bogaerts.  They need to see if he can be the every day SS for the foreseeable future.  It's not going to help his development to bounce him back & forth between SS & 3rd, so to say the Sox are "open to moving guys all around the infield" is incorrect.  They may give Middlebrooks some reps at 1st to help out in a pinch, but they aren't going put him in any kind of platoon.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Middy was not hurt in the playoffs. They benched him for a guy who barely played 3B at all his whole career in Bogey. They obviously lost confidence in Middy much in the same way as they did with Salty.

    The first demotion of Middy could be blamed on an injury, but the fact remains, his numbers were horrendous before they sent him down to AAA.  He was at .201/.234/.408/.642 on May 23rd and .192/.228/.389/.617 on June 20th (his last game before being sent down. Those number were actually greatly inflated by the one game he went 4 for 5 with 3 HRs and a dbl. Without that one game he'd have been at 

    198 AB/35 Hits with 12 2Bs and 6 Hrs.

    .177/.209/.328/.537

    If he was truly sent down to AAA due to injury, why did he start playing within a week and then play almost 6 weeks in AAA before coming back to Boston shortly after Iggy was traded?

    I really can see a strong case to be made that Sox management lost confidence in Middy at least twice in 2013. That does not mean they gave up on him or don't expect better in 2014, but I am certain they have not planned on 150 games by Middy at 3B next year without some kind of serious contingency plan.

    As much as Middy's offense was scary, his defense was way worse than 2012. That's one reason I think Bogey might be able to become a better fielding 3Bman than Middy by the end of spring training, but if Middy regains his form and maybe improves a little more, then perhaps Bogey would take a long time to catch Middy's D.

    Regardless, there are many defensive options at SS that are better than Bogey, and I also think that by the end of ST, Middy could be a better fielding 1Bman than Nava, Papi, and Carp. I see a good chance we could improve 3 key defensive positions by just signing a SS defensive whiz. (I know the chances are slight, but I can still have my opinion here).

    SS: Barnes> Bogey 

    3B: Bogey => Middy

    1B: Middy > Nava/Carp/Papi

    Plus, we save a ton of cash by not signing a big named 1Bman.

    We use the money to boost OF and C and the pen by more than what we could do by signing someone like Napoli.

    Don't get me wrong, I want Napoli back, and I'd be fine with Bogey at SS and Middy at 3B as long as we have a good utility guy in case Middy struggles.

    I like the flex this allows:

    SS: Barnes/Bogey

    3B: Bogey/Middy

    1B: Carp/Middy/Nava (Papi at NL parks)

    LF: Nava/Gomes

    RF: Vict/Nava

    If Middy and Carp do great, Barnes becomes a utility IF'er. If one struggles, we still have a nice set-up that improves the D at least. If we get an OF boost in leau of a 1Bman, Nava could take up the slack of a struggling Middy by playing 1B.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm sure the Sox will bring in a utility guy who can play the left side of the infield, but it won't be some great "backup plan in case Middlebrooks struggles."  That's not how it works.  Billy Beane used to say you spend the 1st third of the season figuring out what you have & the 2nd third of the season trying to make improvements where they are necessary.  Trust me, there is not going to be a "serious contigency plan." By the way, if the Sox Front Office was so "down" on Middlebrooks, they wouldn't have told everyone who asked that he was unavailable at the deadline.  My "guess" is that the Sox Management understands that he had a serious wrist injury, he may have started believing his own hype & he's not the first player in MLB history who struggled to make adjustments as quickly as the "fans" wanted him to.

    If Middlebrooks is brutal, they'll likely make a move for a stop gap 3rd baseman, but again, if he's here, he's going to get a long look at 3rd.  They aren't moving him to first, they aren't moving Bogaerts off of SS & they aren't bringing in a guy who can start over the long haul in case Middlebrooks fails.  You can keep posting this stuff all the way through spring training, but "realistically," Middlebrooks & Bogaerts are going to be starting on the left side of the infield.  They aren't going to rotate 4 guys at 1st base & they aren't overly concerned with Ortiz getting an occasional rest in NL parks.  

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Middlebrooks and Doubront for Trumbo ...

    If the Sox wanted their backup infielder to be a contingency, they eould not have traded Iglesias. 

     

    The role of the utility infielder is to be able to play multiple positions and to do so for as little money as possible.

     

    The contingency plan for Middlebrooks is Cecchini...

     

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