Miller & Lackey

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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : harness, you and maybe two other fans "I won't mention" take offense to fans who call them out on Stats you present that at times show one or two instances while ignoring the overall picture.  Do you really think everyone is that stupid? Then, even worse you ignore articles by others who also disagree with you and continue to preach your beliefs in hopes fans see it as you do anyway.  Instead of demanding facts or proof you won't accept, just ignore our posts because many of us are educated whether you believe it or not.   
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Whoa! Now you are quoting press pieces. I believe it was you who said not to trust the press. R U back-tracking on that?

    I bring up all his outings in a Boston uniform. You are picking out points in time. Yet it's me that "ignores the overall picture".

    You are the one calling people stupid. I have never said that. Now, instead of diverting this away from a baseball discussion, why not debate this on the merits of UR claim that Lackey is a bust. What "facts or proof" validate this claim.

     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Too many people wrote off Tek 3-4 years ago. I don't give a damn what too many people post. That doesn't make their take accurate. What level does a #3/4 guy perform? Isn't that relevant to team? To fan perception? REALITY CHECK: You said " Lackey has been a bust as I (you) have shown". Show me. How is a guy who has pitched 1/3 of his contract and won as many games as he averaged in CA considered a "bust"?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    How about addressing these points?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    If the two of you could determine a time frame that you are using on reviewing Lackey's performance, that would help. You also need to both define what realistic expectations are. Each of you could be correct using your own timeframes and relative expectations.  Differences aside, as red Sox fans we all hope that Lackey and Miller exceed our individual expectations. After all, we all wish the best for these pitchers and our team. Put aside the debate points, your egos, and try to make being a fan an enjoyable experience - like it is supposed to be.
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]If the two of you could determine a time frame that you are using on reviewing Lackey's performance, that would help. You also need to both define what realistic expectations are. Each of you could be correct using your own timeframes and relative expectations.  Differences aside, as red Sox fans we all hope that Lackey and Miller exceed our individual expectations. After all, we all wish the best for these pitchers and our team. Put aside the debate points, your egos, and try to make being a fan an enjoyable experience - like it is supposed to be.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]

    Agree Pike. One of UR finer moments.

    Realistic expectations are not based on FA salary.That's what I'm trying to get across. They are based on prior performance. What else is there to go by?

    I'm using all his years in CA. That's including injuries. I'm using all his outings in Boston, incl. injury. I'm showing that the guy is the same pitcher, but his numbers have to be adjusted accordingly.

    The reason I am using his last 4 games on several threads is to refute claims that he is in steep regression. A pitcher who wins the same ratio of games, or higher, from his 8 and 1/2 years in CA can hardly be deemed a "bust".
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Those are great stats for Lackey, and he always a bulldog with LAA, and that's how we expect him to pitch. But he just flat out didn't. But even after looking at those stats who do you feel most comfortable giving the ball to game 1? Lester or Beckett im sure.
    Posted by RedSoxFan2OO4[/QUOTE]
    If the postseason started this week, Jon Lester or Josh Beckett would start Game 1.

    My point was that too many fans have written off John Lackey, who should be a viable option for the postseason rotation.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Whoa! Now you are quoting press pieces. I believe it was you who said not to trust the press. R U back-tracking on that? I bring up all his outings in a Boston uniform . You are picking out points in time. Yet it's me that "ignores the overall picture". You are the one calling people stupid. I have never said that. Now, instead of diverting this away from a baseball discussion, why not debate this on the merits of UR claim that Lackey is a bust.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I don't call anyone stupid harness and never will.
      You on the other hand?  I have seen you disrespect, make senseless accusations, criticize and ask for proof from people you will never take seriously anyway because they disagree with your personal belief. 

    Not my way, or a person I want to be known as sorry. 




     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey



    Lackey has been pretty good lately.  

    I just hope he keeps it up.   
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : I don't call anyone stupid harness and never will.   You on the other hand?  I have seen you disrespect, make senseless accusations, criticize and ask for proof from people you will never take seriously anyway because they disagree with your personal belief.  Not my way, or a person I want to be known as sorry. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Why are you trying to derail this debate? What R U afraid of. Why don't you address UR claim of Lackey being a bust?

    Gutter talk is something I don't initiate. I simply echo the tone of others.
    If people want to discuss baseball, I'm there. If they don't, I'll oblige.
    Try sticking to the subject at hand.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Agree Pike. One of UR finer moments. Realistic expectations are not based on FA salary.That's what I'm trying to get across. They are based on prior performance . What else is there to go by? I'm using all his years in CA. That's including injuries. I'm using all his outings in Boston, incl. injury. I'm showing that the guy is the same pitcher , but his numbers have to be adjusted accordingly. The reason I am using his last 4 games on several threads is to refute claims that he is in steep regression. A pitcher who wins the same ratio of games, or higher, from his 8 and 1/2 years in CA can hardly be deemed a "bust".
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you on this. However many, many posters on this forum don't agree. It is much much easier and simplistic for them to use salary as the measuring rod. In doing so they do not need to think or to tax their brains. FA salary is dependent on many factors at the time of signing - the marketplace, demand, supply, agents, players, and past and projected performance. Therefore the same player might hit the jackpot one year because he was at the right place at the right time and be offered half of that is he hit the market the following year.. Too many variables for JoeSixpack to process who also just prefers to come here for entertainment or to annoy. The typical poster does not wish to come here to be reasonable, logical, or fair. For many coming here is just simplistic entertainment. Don't expect much more on this forum or else you will be in for a big disappointment.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]And yet Lackey is 4-0 in his last 4 starts. 7-3 since coming off the DL. What is the team record with Miller starting?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Win-loss record is a poor way to measure the effectiveness of a pitcher. It was somewhat relevant before the pitch count era, prior to the near extinction of the complete game. In today's game, a pitcher's win-loss record is mostly irrelevant. But in fact, even in those long ago pure days when men were men and pitchers always finished what they started, assigning one player on the team with the win or loss was not an accurate representation of the effectiveness of the pitcher. Never has been, never will be.

    Both Miller and Lackey have a lot of stats that indicate they have pitched poor to mediocre, win-loss record be damned. Bring all the numbers or don't bring any.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Win-loss record is a poor way to measure the effectiveness of a pitcher. It was somewhat relevant before the pitch count era, prior to the near extinction of the complete game. In today's game, a pitcher's win-loss record is mostly irrelevant. But in fact, even in those long ago pure days when men were men and pitchers always finished what they started, assigning one player on the team with the win or loss was not an accurate representation of the effectiveness of the pitcher. Never has been, never will be. Both Miller and Lackey have a lot of stats that indicate they have pitched poor to mediocre, win-loss record be damned. Bring all the numbers or don't bring any.
    Posted by devildavid[/QUOTE]

    Exactly David, especially when the pitcher one praises, rarely sees the 6th, inning.
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Win-loss record is a poor way to measure the effectiveness of a pitcher. It was somewhat relevant before the pitch count era, prior to the near extinction of the complete game. In today's game, a pitcher's win-loss record is mostly irrelevant. But in fact, even in those long ago pure days when men were men and pitchers always finished what they started, assigning one player on the team with the win or loss was not an accurate representation of the effectiveness of the pitcher. Never has been, never will be. Both Miller and Lackey have a lot of stats that indicate they have pitched poor to mediocre, win-loss record be damned. Bring all the numbers or don't bring any.
    Posted by devildavid[/QUOTE]

    Win ratio is still very pertinent. If wins were strictly team induced, then the HOF is full or random winners.

    Last year, Lackey was 14-11  4.40 ERA 1.409 WHIP.
    His career avg. in CA: 14 wins a year  3.88 ERA 1.306 WHIP

    Adjust the numbers realistically for Fenway, pitching in the A.L. East, in Boston's climate, and he's the same pitcher, which, according to this thread author, means he was a "bust" in CA.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    Every stat is relevant and so is watching each game. If everyone did so and defined their parameters in debate then this thread would have been put to bed a long timeago.
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Exactly David, especially when the pitcher one praises, rarely sees the 6th, inning.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    Still waiting for you to back up UR claim he's a "bust".
    Lackey was 2nd in IP per start last year. How many times does this have to be said.
    Since his DL stint this year, Lackey has "seen the 6th inning" in 8 of his 10 starts.

    Do you ever do any research? Or just piggy-back others.

    You copied Hill's post then claim you showed proof via articles. What a joke.
    He was quoting a stat site, at varied intervals.

    You make half-baked generalizations, and when challenged, you retort shallow come-backs, or divert the conversation altogether.

    Tell me "how you know better at certain points". REALITY CHECK
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]Every stat is relevant and so is watching each game. If everyone did so and defined their parameters in debate then this thread would have been put to bed a long timeago.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]

    Not really.
    You'd be surprised how two people watching the same game can come up with varied takes as well.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Win ratio is still very pertinent. If wins were strictly team induced, then the HOF is full or random winners. Last year, Lackey was 14-11  4.40 ERA 1.409 WHIP. His career avg. in CA: 14 wins a year  3.88 ERA 1.306 WHIP Adjust the numbers realistically for Fenway, pitching in the A.L. East, in Boston's climate, and he's the same pitcher, which, according to this thread author, means he was a "bust" in CA.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. I couldn't help feel a little disappointed until  I rationalized Lackey last year. Seattle and Oakland doesn't/hasn't equal(/ed) Toronto or Tampa Bay (Team Batting~wise). ALE is better competition, plain and simple.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Still waiting for you to back up UR claim he's a " bust ". Lackey was 2nd in IP per start last year. How many times does this have to be said. Since his DL stint this year, Lackey has "seen the 6th inning" in 8 of his 10 starts. Do you ever do any research? Or just piggy-back others. You copied Hill's post then claim you showed proof via articles. What a joke. He was quoting a stat site, at varied intervals. You make half-baked generalizations, and when challenged, you retort shallow come-backs, or divert the conversation altogether. Tell me "how you know better at certain points". REALITY CHECK
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE

    No harness I never research anything and went to Yale, then worked closely to the Sox FO for five years and don't have a clue :)  I'm not sure where you are from but it's certainly not the Boston area.  If it is then my offer for a referral is still good.

    Good night!


     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Still waiting for you to back up UR claim he's a " bust ". Lackey was 2nd in IP per start last year. How many times does this have to be said. Since his DL stint this year, Lackey has "seen the 6th inning" in 8 of his 10 starts. Do you ever do any research? Or just piggy-back others. You copied Hill's post then claim you showed proof via articles. What a joke. He was quoting a stat site, at varied intervals. You make half-baked generalizations, and when challenged, you retort shallow come-backs, or divert the conversation altogether. Tell me "how you know better at certain points". REALITY CHECK Posted by harness[/QUOTE No harness I never research anything and went to Yale, then worked closely to the Sox FO for five years and don't have a clue :)  I'm not sure where you are from but it's certainly not the Boston area.  If it is then my offer for a referral is still good. Good night!
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I'm from Boston. Moved to Seattle. Is this pertinent?

    So, MR. Yale man, please back up UR LACKEY IS A BUST statement.
    Was he a "bust" in CA? Living in Boston, you should be all too familiar with Fenway Park's/Boston's affect on pitchers...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zack5042. Show zack5042's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    Lackey had his 3rd most innings pitched in his career last year, his strike out numbers were the fourth best of his career, He tied his lowest amount of homeruns given up in a COMPLETE season, and his ERA and Whip were up but what else do you expect playing in a hitters ballpark facing better teams? That was his 8th season. So if you look at all those numbers Lackey HASN'T been a bust he might have even pitched better than he did most of his career!
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]Lackey had his 3rd most innings pitched in his career last year, his strike out numbers were the fourth best of his career, He tied his lowest amount of homeruns given up in a COMPLETE season, and his ERA and Whip were up but what else do you expect playing in a hitters ballpark facing better teams? That was his 8th season. So if you look at all those numbers Lackey HASN'T been a bust he might have even pitched better than he did most of his career!
    Posted by zack5042[/QUOTE]

    Nice work, Zack.
    YOU get it.
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Nice work, Zack . YOU get it.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    It takes like 5 minutes to look up that stats and see that he hasnt been a bust. I think the only reason Miller still has a spot is because if he goes back to the minors he may opt out of his contract and we don't want to lose his talent. Now that Bedard is here he should lose his starting spot might get converted to our lefty specialist.
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : It takes like 5 minutes to look up that stats and see that he hasnt been a bust. I think the only reason Miller still has a spot is because if he goes back to the minors he may opt out of his contract and we don't want to lose his talent. Now that Bedard is here he should lose his starting spot might get converted to our lefty specialist.
    Posted by zack5042[/QUOTE]

    Yup.

     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : So harness you lived in Boston and believe Fenway Park has this a huge affect on John's Stats.  John simply can't handle the better hitters he is facing here in the AL East and now knows he will never measure up to Clay, Jon or Josh, this also puts added pressure on him along with all the criticism and the fact he was signed to be our #3 pitcher.  I don't see any other pitchers around the league who's numbers have changed so dramatically after changing locations.If you walked around the RS front office with this silly statement you would be a laughing stock.  Try writing Theo and tell him he forgot to research the venue thoroughly before signing Lackey.  My guess is you have never lived in Boston and spend most of your life on the internet.  Heck, you probably don't even see Sox games where you are.  Around here John is known as a bust by many sources.  Will he turn things around maybe but it's fact.  Google it like you do all your Stats and learn something    
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Oh, I see how it works. If one no longer lives in Boston, one loses touch with the streets. My, that must mean many posters here are out of touch, as many are spread around the country. Soooo, Lackey is a bust because that's the word around Boston. Terrific logic - about what I'd expect from a Yale man.

    Maybe you don't see variance in venue because you never bothered to look. It happens when you are so in tune with the streets...
    Allow me to adjust your blinders:

    RedSox pitching staff:
    at Fenway: 4.23 ERA  1.362 WHIP .724 OPS  483 Hits  483 IP
    Away:       3.54 ERA  1.166 WHIP  .663 OPS 380 Hits  465 IP

    Want more?  Beckett had a 5.00 ERA in his first year in Boston. 36 dingers.
    This off a 15-8 3.38 ERA in the 2005 retirement league. He pitched the same way but was compromised by Fenway and the level of competition. So he made the necessary adjustments and mixed up his pitches more - started listening to his catcher (by his own admission).
    2007: The year Beckett should have won the CY Young. Why? Because he pitched half his games in a band box named Fenway...against tougher in an unbalanced schedule. The splits:
    Josh in Fenway:             9-5  4.17 ERA 1.200 WHIP
    Josh away from Fenway: 11-2 2.18 ERA 1.070 WHIP

    It takes time for pitchers to learn how to use the park to their advantage. And the margin for error is vastly different pitching in Fenway.
    Lackey is compromised by both the park and facing teams like NY/Toronto 3 times more often. I'm sure the Boston fanatics, his elbow issue and dealing with his wife's cancer have also contributed to a rough first two months.

    Yeah, Theo definitely considers moundsmen adjusting to Fenway, as he does to the better division and the tough Boston climate when evaluating talent.
    Why do you think pitchers historically don't want to pitch in this park?
    Do you think it's a hitter's paradise but it doesn't affect pitchers?

    Here's an idea of how it affects hitters: Current 2011 squad:
    At Fenway: .308 BA .376 OBP .492 SLG  .868 OPS 1847 AB
    Away:         .253 BA  .333 OBP .424 SLG  .757 OPS 1858 AB

    AGONE at Fenway: .397 BA/ .316 AWAY.
    Gee, did he become superman by ducking inside a Boston phone booth? He's the same player who hit a career .265 in SD (Petco).

    Me? I never used a computer before 2005.
    How could you possibly go to Yale, work 'indirectly' for the team for 5 years and be this clueless???
     
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    Re: Miller & Lackey




    Jon and Josh are outstanding!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Miller & Lackey

    In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Miller & Lackey : Oh, I see how it works. If one no longer lives in Boston, one loses touch with the streets. My, that must mean many posters here are out of touch, as many are spread around the country. Soooo, Lackey is a bust because that's the word around Boston. Terrific logic - about what I'd expect from a Yale man. Maybe you don't see variance in venue because you never bothered to look. It happens when you are so in tune with the streets... Allow me to adjust your blinders: RedSox pitching staff: at Fenway: 4.23 ERA  1.362 WHIP .724 OPS  483 Hits  483 IP Away:       3.54 ERA  1.166 WHIP  .663 OPS 380 Hits  465 IP Want more?  Beckett had a 5.00 ERA in his first year in Boston. 36 dingers. This off a 15-8 3.38 ERA in the 2005 retirement league. He pitched the same way but was compromised by Fenway and the level of competition. So he made the necessary adjustments and mixed up his pitches more - started listening to his catcher (by his own admission). 2007: The year Beckett should have won the CY Young. Why? Because he pitched half his games in a band box named Fenway...against tougher in an unbalanced schedule. The splits: Josh in Fenway:             9-5  4.17 ERA 1.200 WHIP Josh away from Fenway: 11-2 2.18 ERA 1.070 WHIP It takes time for pitchers to learn how to use the park to their advantage. And the margin for error is vastly different pitching in Fenway. Lackey is compromised by both the park and facing teams like NY/Toronto 3 times more often. I'm sure the Boston fanatics, his elbow issue and dealing with his wife's cancer have also contributed to a rough first two months. Yeah, Theo definitely considers moundsmen adjusting to Fenway, as he does to the better division and the tough Boston climate when evaluating talent. Why do you think pitchers historically don't want to pitch in this park? Do you think it's a hitter's paradise but it doesn't affect pitchers? Here's an idea of how it affects hitters: Current 2011 squad: At Fenway: .308 BA .376 OBP .492 SLG  .868 OPS 1847 AB Away:         .253 BA  .333 OBP .424 SLG  .757 OPS 1858 AB AGONE at Fenway: .397 BA/ .316 AWAY. Gee, did he become superman by ducking inside a Boston phone booth? He's the same player who hit a career .265 in SD (Petco). Me? I never used a computer before 2005. How could you possibly go to Yale, work 'indirectly' for the team for 5 years and be this clueless ???
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    After reading you're final argument, we the jurors find Mr. harness guilty of the the following offenses ...

    A: Being an expert "wannabe" meteorologist from "Seattle" who travels to ball parks from Boston to California evaluating weather patterns and air quality.

    B: Being an average fan who Google's all night gathering Stats you may use in a debate.

    C: Impersonating a Bostonian to hundreds of innocent fans.  My bet is you have never even stepped foot in Boston, or simply choose to ignore the truth.  Lackey still needs major improvement.

    D: Actually believing most of us just entered the country illegally on a "banana boat" and buy what you write.

    Like I said, Theo and his staff would laugh at your take.  I'm also quite confident  They did their home work before handing over 80mil to Lackey  You choose to Google, copy and paste them with an added twist to make your argument look more convincing to others.  Beckett never really missed a beat from his days in Florida to Boston.  Whats your latest rant?  Are you going to try and differentiate hurricane season from earthquakes to make Lackeys situation different than Josh's :) 
     
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