Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

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    Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    Moon - I made this point in another thread but I fell off my seat reading your comment. For 500 At Bats, a .300 average equates to 25 extra hits. Some of those by the law of averages would not only be extra base hits but they would produce some runs that a BB would not. Also, there have been only a handful of players in the history of baseball that have had .400 OBA with BA at or below .250 (M.Bishop in 1930, Mickey Tettleton with 97 BB in 339 official AB's, Gene Tenace with 124 BB in 420 official At bats. If someone had 450 official PA and a .250 average they would have 113 hits. For that player to have a .400 OBA average, they would need 112 BB's to get up to a .400 OBA. That would mean they would have the same number of Walks as hits. Most guys in the history of baseball (99%+) who have OBA of .400 have very high batting averages.

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to ADG's comment:

     

    Moon - I made this point in another thread but I fell off my seat reading your comment. For 500 At Bats, a .300 average equates to 25 extra hits. Some of those by the law of averages would not only be extra base hits but they would produce some runs that a BB would not. Also, there have been only a handful of players in the history of baseball that have had .400 OBA with BA at or below .250 (M.Bishop in 1930, Mickey Tettleton with 97 BB in 339 official AB's, Gene Tenace with 124 BB in 420 official At bats. If someone had 450 official PA and a .250 average they would have 113 hits. For that player to have a .400 OBA average, they would need 112 BB's to get up to a .400 OBA. That would mean they would have the same number of Walks as hits. Most guys in the history of baseball (99%+) who have OBA of .400 have very high batting averages.

     



     

    You may want to buy a new seat, but I'm sure you'll check it first to make sure nobody puts a tack on it.

     

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    This post was in error.

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist


    So Eddie Yost (.231 / .412)  did not exist in 1956?

     

    Or Eddie Joost in 1948?  (.263 / .429)  OK he hit over .260, but his OBP Was WAY over .400.

     

    Or Eddie Stanky in 1945?  (.258 / .412)

     

    And those are just the Eddie's.

     

    Ferris Fain in 1953 hit .256 with a .405 OBP.  

     

    They exist.   And some of them are not named Eddie...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to ADG's comment:

    Moon - I made this point in another thread but I fell off my seat reading your comment. For 500 At Bats, a .300 average equates to 25 extra hits. Some of those by the law of averages would not only be extra base hits but they would produce some runs that a BB would not. Also, there have been only a handful of players in the history of baseball that have had .400 OBA with BA at or below .250 (M.Bishop in 1930, Mickey Tettleton with 97 BB in 339 official AB's, Gene Tenace with 124 BB in 420 official At bats. If someone had 450 official PA and a .250 average they would have 113 hits. For that player to have a .400 OBA average, they would need 112 BB's to get up to a .400 OBA. That would mean they would have the same number of Walks as hits. Most guys in the history of baseball (99%+) who have OBA of .400 have very high batting averages.



    Your math is off, but on the right track.  In order to hit .250 / .400 with 450 PA, a playrr would need 90 hits and 90 walks.

     

    90 hits in 360 ab = .250 BA

    90 hits plus 90 BB in 450 pa = .400 obp

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    My point was theoretical. I used round numbers to make my point.

    And, besides, Adam Dunn did do it.

    2002:

    He batted .249 with an OBP of .400. He also hit 26 HRs in 535 PAs.

    I could have said, I'd prefer a .275 BA/.375 OBP to a .300 BA/.350 OBP player assuming XBHs and SBs are about even.

    The other fact is that in reality, low BA/high OBP players tend to hit for power, so their SLG makes then much better hitters than purely high BA players with low BBs and low XBHs.

    I think of Adam Dunn as that type of player. Although he only went over .400 for a full season once, he also did have these seasons as well:

      BA  OBP  HRs  RBIs  Ks

    .266  .388  46  102  195 (led league)

    .247  .387  40  101  168 (led league)

    .234  .365  40    92  194 (led league)

    .264  .386  40  106  165

    .236  .386  40  100  164

    \

    His overall BA with Cincy was .239. His OBP was .367. That OBP made him a very effective batter. Couple that with the HRs, and he was an awesome offensive threat.

    .267  .398  38  105  177

    .260  .356  38  103  199

     

    Sox4ever

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    Of course none of the Eddie's nor Ferris Fain were much fkr power.

     

    Daric Barton has never done an actual .250 / .400 season, but he is another I could see accomplishing it with no power to speak of.  Assuming he ever stays healthy...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    Here are some other big BA/OBP differentials:

    The ones in red are .250 and under and .400 and over.

    It's been done 5 times since 1990.

     

    Barry Bonds .362/.609 (+247)

    some with lower BAs:

    Giambi  .271/.440 

    Giambi  .253/.413

    Giambi  .250/.412

    Thome  .277/.426 and .275/.410

    Sheffield .250/.424

    McGwire  .278/.424

    Tettleton .248/.419 and .238/.396

    R Henderson .241/.410 and .268/.400

    D Tartabull   .266/.409

    J Cust           .256/.408

    Delgado       .279/.408 and .277/.406

    A Gon          .277/.407

    Dykstra       .273/.404

    T Phillips     .277/.404

    W Weiss      .260/.403

    J Burnitz     .270/.402

    P Fielder    .261/.401

    Posada      .272/.400

    A Dunn      .249/.400

    P Burrell    .256/.400

     

    Sox4ever

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    McGwire had a .252/.413 and a .253/.411.

    Toy Cannon had a .248/.403.

    Sheffield had a .250/.424.

    Giambi had a .250/.412 and a .253/.413.

    Mccovey, Jack Clark, Jack Crooks, Fain, 

     

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    McGwire had a .252/.413 and a .253/.411.

    Toy Cannon had a .248/.403.

    Sheffield had a .250/.424.

    Giambi had a .250/.412 and a .253/.413.

    Mccovey, Jack Clark, Jack Crooks, Fain, 

     



    I counted 5 times since 1990, and there were several close ones. It's not a common thing, but my point wasn't about the precise numbers, it was more about the fact that there are hitters with relatively low BAs that get on base with much higher frequency than some with high BAs. Enough to outweigh the added value of the extra singles, in some cases.

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    The silence by ADG is deafening.

    Sox4ever

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    Talk about completely missing the point.  Whether a guy like that does or does not exist is beyond the point.  Extreme examples are laid out to make a point, to argue the theoritical side of what goes into the stats to reach a deeper understanding of them.  

     

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    There is also the possibility that many of those walks were either intentional or strategic pitching around a guy in certain situations, and did not necessarily benefit the team. There are a lot of variables in trying to evaluate all of these stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    There is also the possibility that many of those walks were either intentional or strategic pitching around a guy in certain situations, and did not necessarily benefit the team. There are a lot of variables in trying to evaluate all of these stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     



    Yes and usually when a player is IBB (not all the time but often) it is because he is a dangerous hitter.  A guy who hits a lot of HR's and hits a lot of doubles.  Theres a difference between facing a player who is hitting .318 but can't slug and a guy who is batting .310 and can't slug.

     

    Those are the respected batting average for Jose Iglesias and David Ortiz. Walks are not as valuables as hits, but they do hold value.  But batting average only averages the amount OF hits and not the quality of the hit.  Now SLG doesn't take into account hitting with runners in scoring position but it does weight singles, doubles, triples, and HR's.

    a guy who hits .300 hit 60 XBH is worth more than a guy who hits .300 with 30 XBH.  It's not that I don't find AVG indicative, I just think it's better to look at SLG% and par it up with OBP%.  Which AVG is a function of OBP%  

    We can argue all day how looking at one stat alone can be very misleading and this is true for ALL of the stats.  The basic premise that has been laid out by the anti BA people isn't that BA isn't a very good stat to look at only that people tend to put more weight into it.

    Do some people weight OBP to heavily? or perhaps over estimate how much a high OBP can make up for a lower AVG? yes, but it seems me that it is much much more common that AVG is the overhyped stat.

    People who tend to look at and value OBP, very commonly weight it with SLG% which combined is a much better measure of the offensive contributions a player brings to the plate than AVG alone.  There is an old school of thought (not everyone) where people tend to look at a very small window of numbers, and AVG tends to be the prime suspect of those people....along with WINS. 

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    this is the post

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    McGwire had a .252/.413 and a .253/.411.

    Toy Cannon had a .248/.403.

    Sheffield had a .250/.424.

    Giambi had a .250/.412 and a .253/.413.

    Mccovey, Jack Clark, Jack Crooks, Fain, 

     

     



    I counted 5 times since 1990, and there were several close ones. It's not a common thing, but my point wasn't about the precise numbers, it was more about the fact that there are hitters with relatively low BAs that get on base with much higher frequency than some with high BAs. Enough to outweigh the added value of the extra singles, in some cases.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Ricky did it twice - '96 and '97.  Also, if you extended your search back one more year, Jack Clark did it in 1989.

    ADG sure taught you a lesson, Moon :)

     

     

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    A walk is part of the At Bat Process, thats it.

     

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Talk about completely missing the point.  Whether a guy like that does or does not exist is beyond the point.  Extreme examples are laid out to make a point, to argue the theoritical side of what goes into the stats to reach a deeper understanding of them.  

     



    Yes, and ADG took my point literally. And, on top of that, he got teh facts wrong.

    Not the first time he's been wrong twice on just one statement.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    I counted 5 times since 1990, and there were several close ones. It's not a common thing, but my point wasn't about the precise numbers, it was more about the fact that there are hitters with relatively low BAs that get on base with much higher frequency than some with high BAs. Enough to outweigh the added value of the extra singles, in some cases.

     

     

     



    Ricky did it twice - '96 and '97.  Also, if you extended your search back one more year, Jack Clark did it in 1989.

     

    ADG sure taught you a lesson, Moon :)

     

    So, 6 times since 1990 and 7 times since 1989. 

    Seven times in 25 years.

    That's about once every 3 years. Hardly impossible.

    My point stands on its merits and its theory. There are a heck of a lot of batters who do not hit for high average, but get enough walks to make their OBP significantly higher than some hitters with very good BAs.

    Enough to sometimes offset the greater value of the extra hits player A has over player B.

    Sox4ever

     
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    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    Who's a better batter this season?

    Player A .324 BA

    Player B .293 BA (5 more XBHs)

     

    Now, add these other numbers:

    Player A   .379 OBP / .531 SLG

    Player B  .398 OBP / .537 SLG

     

    Player A is Adrian Beltre and B is Goldschmidt

    Sox4ever

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Here are some other big BA/OBP differentials:

    The ones in red are .250 and under and .400 and over.

    It's been done 5 times since 1990.

     

    Barry Bonds .362/.609 (+247)

    some with lower BAs:

    Giambi  .271/.440 

    Giambi  .253/.413

    Giambi  .250/.412

    Thome  .277/.426 and .275/.410

    Sheffield .250/.424

    McGwire  .278/.424

    Tettleton .248/.419 and .238/.396

    R Henderson .241/.410 and .268/.400

    D Tartabull   .266/.409

    J Cust           .256/.408

    Delgado       .279/.408 and .277/.406

    A Gon          .277/.407

    Dykstra       .273/.404

    T Phillips     .277/.404

    W Weiss      .260/.403

    J Burnitz     .270/.402

    P Fielder    .261/.401

    Posada      .272/.400

    A Dunn      .249/.400

    P Burrell    .256/.400

     

    Sox4ever



    Moon - But you said you'd rather have a leadoff hitter who did it. The small number of players in the history of baseball were power hitters.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Who's a better batter this season?

    Player A .324 BA

    Player B .293 BA (5 more XBHs)

     

    Now, add these other numbers:

    Player A   .379 OBP / .531 SLG

    Player B  .398 OBP / .537 SLG

     

    Player A is Adrian Beltre and B is Goldschmidt

    Sox4ever




    Saying who was better between Beltre and Goldschmidt is purely that person's opinion. I don't think a 'better' argument can be made between the two of them.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Moon Think Again - Guys with .250 BA and .400 OBA Don't Exist

    In response to ADG's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

     

    Here are some other big BA/OBP differentials:

    The ones in red are .250 and under and .400 and over.

    It's been done 5 times since 1990.

     

    Barry Bonds .362/.609 (+247)

    some with lower BAs:

    Giambi  .271/.440 

    Giambi  .253/.413

    Giambi  .250/.412

    Thome  .277/.426 and .275/.410

    Sheffield .250/.424

    McGwire  .278/.424

    Tettleton .248/.419 and .238/.396

    R Henderson .241/.410 and .268/.400

    D Tartabull   .266/.409

    J Cust           .256/.408

    Delgado       .279/.408 and .277/.406

    A Gon          .277/.407

    Dykstra       .273/.404

    T Phillips     .277/.404

    W Weiss      .260/.403

    J Burnitz     .270/.402

    P Fielder    .261/.401

    Posada      .272/.400

    A Dunn      .249/.400

    P Burrell    .256/.400

     

    Sox4ever

     

     



    Moon - But you said you'd rather have a leadoff hitter who did it. The small number of players in the history of baseball were power hitters.

     

     

     



    It's a theory. Maybe you don't understand the point I was getting at.

     

    I thought I was talking about any slot in the order, but I'd rather have a player leading off with a higher OBP and lower BA than vice versa.

     

    Ricky Henderson was not a power hitter. He was the games best leadoff hitter precisely because he got on base (despite a low BA some years) and then he stole bases laike a madman.

    Never say never in baseball, unless you check the facts first.

     

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