moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    This is a great article because it gives us some actual eyeball evidence of those 'range factors' that are usually just a phantom number:

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9603949/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

     

    According to two historical play-by-play-based systems, Baseball Prospectus's Fielding Runs Above Average and Baseball-Reference's Total Zone, Jeter has cost his team more in the field than any other player in history, with both methods assessing the damage at 230 to 260 runs.1

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Cue Yankee indignation in 3...2...1...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Let me point out that I didn't put this up just to make Jeter look bad-although I knew moon would appreciate it because he's been preaching for years about Jeter's lack of range.

    I really like the fact that this is based on an analysis you can see with your eyes instead of just 'zone ratings' on FanGraphs.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    the article's tipping point is 06'...right around the time i joined BDC...but i've heard people sniping at Jeter's SS play when they were still winning championships...FTR i don't think Moon will feel particularly validated over something that was/is fairly obvious to most...   

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    This is a great article because it gives us some actual eyeball evidence of those 'range factors' that are usually just a phantom number:

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9603949/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense 

    hey Nut'..it's a fair(though lengthy) read


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    It was interesting and I don't disagree with the conclusion.  However, I don't see how comparing him to 'the best shortstop in the game' says very much.  Seems like comparing him to an avg. shortstop would be more useful.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    So much for gold gloves have any meaning.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    He s-cks; given his postage stamp range,  I would have easily traded him in for the dozen or so RS SS's over the same time period.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop


    I don't think many would argue that Jeter's range is limited and it is has always been frustrating dealing with Yankee Fans who think he is a great SS, but as someone who lives in the Tri State area, I watch alot of Yankee games and always have and whatever Sabremetrics say, he is far from the worst SS during his time with the Yankees.....he may not get to balls that other SS's might, but as the article says, he handles well a high percentage of the ones he gets to, plus I would be hard pressed to think of a play Jeter made defensively that directly cost his team a game.....though we can all think of some that saved his team the game....there is something that can be said for reliability....I think alot of pitchers would rather have a SS behind them who they know will make the plays on the balls they get to, than a guy who will make spectacular plays but might let a ball go through their legs.....and at this point in his career, as Hillary C would say....what difference does it make 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to tomnev's comment:

    I don't think many would argue that Jeter's range is limited and it is has always been frustrating dealing with Yankee Fans who think he is a great SS, but as someone who lives in the Tri State area, I watch alot of Yankee games and always have and whatever Sabremetrics say, he is far from the worst SS during his time with the Yankees.....he may not get to balls that other SS's might, but as the article says, he handles well a high percentage of the ones he gets to, plus I would be hard pressed to think of a play Jeter made defensively that directly cost his team a game.....though we can all think of some that saved his team the game....there is something that can be said for reliability....I think alot of pitchers would rather have a SS behind them who they know will make the plays on the balls they get to, than a guy who will make spectacular plays but might let a ball go through their legs.....and at this point in his career, as Hillary C would say....what difference does it make 



    I that's kind of the point.  You can't think of a defensive play that cost the team a game because no one notices when he doesn't get to a ball that many ss would have made a play on.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to greenwellforpresident's comment:

     

    In response to tomnev's comment:

     

     

     

    I don't think many would argue that Jeter's range is limited and it is has always been frustrating dealing with Yankee Fans who think he is a great SS, but as someone who lives in the Tri State area, I watch alot of Yankee games and always have and whatever Sabremetrics say, he is far from the worst SS during his time with the Yankees.....he may not get to balls that other SS's might, but as the article says, he handles well a high percentage of the ones he gets to, plus I would be hard pressed to think of a play Jeter made defensively that directly cost his team a game.....though we can all think of some that saved his team the game....there is something that can be said for reliability....I think alot of pitchers would rather have a SS behind them who they know will make the plays on the balls they get to, than a guy who will make spectacular plays but might let a ball go through their legs.....and at this point in his career, as Hillary C would say....what difference does it make 

     

     



    I that's kind of the point.  You can't think of a defensive play that cost the team a game because no one notices when he doesn't get to a ball that many ss would have made a play on.

     

     

     



    Despite the somewhat contradictory nature. mostly agree with both statements above. Regardless, he tends to be a clutch defensive player; recall the relays in the 99 PS vs the RS and 2000 WS, or the 'flip'and stands plays vs Oak in the '01 PS. 

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    I would also say that despite his limited SS range on balls to his left or right he always got back on pop ups to the OF better than most SS....one of the reasons I thought at the time, the Yanlks should have converted him To CF when they got AROD

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     



    Lack of Range-wise to his left, he's up there. Otherwise I highly doubt he's the worst you've ever seen, especially with Lugo manning the patrols for your favorite team.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

     

    the more I hear how bad jeters defense was

    the more I realize how overrated SS defense must be

     

    wonder how many more PO games andy could have won

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    So much for gold gloves have any meaning.




    They do mean something when you get your first couple, then it becomes a popularity contest. So they are valid to a point.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to tomnev's comment:

    I would also say that despite his limited SS range on balls to his left or right he always got back on pop ups to the OF better than most SS....one of the reasons I thought at the time, the Yanlks should have converted him To CF when they got AROD



    Not that ARod was a great fielding SS, but why didn't they put Jeter at 3B?

    The worse fielder.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     



    Lack of Range-wise to his left, he's up there. Otherwise I highly doubt he's the worst you've ever seen, especially with Lugo manning the patrols for your favorite team.

     




    Call me biased, but with the SS, it's almost all about range to me.

    Lugo had plau range until his injury. He botched easy plays, but he was never the worst fielder for a decade like Jeter has been.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Sure reads like sour grapes to me.  Jeter was the center of a Yankees dynasty under Joe Torre and is a very good bet to get into the HOF.  I don't question the lack of range, but can remember a few others who lacked range but were still pretty effective.   Putting Lugo above Jeter is laughable.  Little doubt this is a Red Sox opinion board.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to MadMc44's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

     

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

    [/QUOTE]


    I love fielding and for that reason alone hated losing Iglesias, but I do not agree hitting and fielding are equally important at any position.  You get 3000 hits, you are a heckuva SS regardless of your range factor or whatever. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    the article's tipping point is 06'...right around the time i joined BDC...but i've heard people sniping at Jeter's SS play when they were still winning championships...FTR i don't think Moon will feel particularly validated over something that was/is fairly obvious to most...   



    Jete - I've always been a Jeter admirer despite his defensive shortcomings....but isn't it possible those championships were won despite his defense? 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to tomnev's comment:

     

     

     

    I would also say that despite his limited SS range on balls to his left or right he always got back on pop ups to the OF better than most SS....one of the reasons I thought at the time, the Yanlks should have converted him To CF when they got AROD

     

     



    Not that ARod was a great fielding SS, but why didn't they put Jeter at 3B?

     

     

    The worse fielder.

     



    I always assumed it was because Jeter was the existing, highly successful Yank SS (and captain?).  I don't meant that in a terrible way, but I remember thinking it was a bit selfish at the time. But even IF he was worse defensively, and IF he thought that was the case...it's hardly the worst thing an athlete's ever done.  Jeter is one of the good guys so even if - IF - that was selfishly motivated I'm happy to let it slide.

    And I don't think ARod could have played SS for much longer anyway....

     

     
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