moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     



    Lack of Range-wise to his left, he's up there. Otherwise I highly doubt he's the worst you've ever seen, especially with Lugo manning the patrols for your favorite team.

     

     




    Call me biased, but with the SS, it's almost all about range to me.

     

    Lugo had plau range until his injury. He botched easy plays, but he was never the worst fielder for a decade like Jeter has been.

    [/QUOTE]


    So Lugo was better than Jeter in the field? I admit Lugo's injury impacted him. However, this comment pretty much speaks for itself.

     

    You are a marvelous analyst; however it appears your credibility has taken a hit. At least you admit bias, so it's a smaller hit.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

     

     

     

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     

     




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

     

     

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

     



    Absurd. I don't care if he played SS like Adam Dunn; the guy's got 5 rings, a 313 BA, and 3300-ish hits.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

     

     

     

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     

     




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

     

     

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

     



    Absurd. I don't care if he played SS like Adam Dunn; the guy's got 5 rings, a 313 BA, and 3300-ish hits.

     



    Please Steven, I love you, but don't trot out the horrible "ring" argument!   If rings count, then Jeter is 1 worse than Charlie Silvera and 2 worse than Jim Loscutoff.   ;-)

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     

     




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

     

     

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I love fielding and for that reason alone hated losing Iglesias, but I do not agree hitting and fielding are equally important at any position.  You get 3000 hits, you are a heckuva SS regardless of your range factor or whatever. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You say you "agree" that fielding and hitting are equally important at any position. I do not think this is true at every position.

    I think the catcher and SS carry far more weight on defense than other positions. Their fielding (and game-calling for the catcher) may matter more than hitting. Other positions probably have the hitting outweigh the fielding.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     



    Lack of Range-wise to his left, he's up there. Otherwise I highly doubt he's the worst you've ever seen, especially with Lugo manning the patrols for your favorite team.

     

     

     




    Call me biased, but with the SS, it's almost all about range to me.

     

     

    Lugo had plau range until his injury. He botched easy plays, but he was never the worst fielder for a decade like Jeter has been.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    So Lugo was better than Jeter in the field? I admit Lugo's injury impacted him. However, this comment pretty much speaks for itself.

     

    You are a marvelous analyst; however it appears your credibility has taken a hit. At least you admit bias, so it's a smaller hit.

    [/QUOTE]

    Look at the range numbers for Lugo before the injury. Yes, he was making maybe 20 more erros than Jeter, but was probably making way more than 50 plays a year on Jeter due to superior range. After the injury? No arguement: hw was as bad or worse than Jeter.

    I have never been a Lugo defender. There is no pro-Sox "bias" with me here. I hated the signing and argued with softy for years over Lugo's value. From 2003 to 2006, his range factor/9 was over 4.5. It was 4.21 in 2007, then fell off a cliff with injuries and.or aging. Jeter had one season out of 19 with a RF/9 above 4.5. It's a career 4.08. Lugo's is 4.51 (including the injury years).

    When Lugo became a FT SS until 2007, his UZR/150 was +2.8 (9th out of 22 qualifiers). Jeter was 19th at -.80. More importantly to me, and this may be my bias:

    RngR (2001-2007) 22 qualifying SSs:

    1) Lugo +36.3

    2) AGon +18.5

    4) OCab  +15.0

    22) Jeter -57.0 (Last Place)

    I can't believe I am defending Lugo. softy berated me for saying "we won despite Lugo" and ranted for years about his "wire-to-wire" 2007 season.

    I think his signing turned out to be one of the worst signings, but the injury was a major part of the failure.

    When healthy, Lugo was much better than Jeter. Some here will look at the erros and FLG% and call me nuts. But look further...

    2001-2007:

    Lugo (6367 innings) 134 Errors (.966) PO+A= 3837 (5.4 plays per 9 inn)

    Jete  (7722 innings) 104 Errors (.976) PO+A= 4137 (4.8 plays per 9 inn)

    Over 150 games Lugo made about 90 more plays and 10 more errors (28 to 18).

    Call me biased towards range not FLG%, but it has nothing to do with Sox vs Yanks or any love for Lugo.

     

     

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars's comment:

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

     

    the article's tipping point is 06'...right around the time i joined BDC...but i've heard people sniping at Jeter's SS play when they were still winning championships...FTR i don't think Moon will feel particularly validated over something that was/is fairly obvious to most...   

     



    Jete - I've always been a Jeter admirer despite his defensive shortcomings....but isn't it possible those championships were won despite his defense? 

     

    hey Sonic...yeah very possible/probable, i just mean that in the sense of he wasn't exactly  killing them through those seasons nor in the WS...granted his bat was such they wouldn't want to lose that offense, but i don't think they felt they would need to lift him for defense...i've always wished he was a better defender, but it's not like they had to hold their breath when the ball was hit there 


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    I think the Red Sox have used Jeter as the model for the kind of shortstop they want.  They definitely value offense at the position, as many people have noted.

    Jeter has a career WAR of 72 which is hard to argue with.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I think the Red Sox have used Jeter as the model for the kind of shortstop they want.  They definitely value offense at the position, as many people have noted.

    Jeter has a career WAR of 72 which is hard to argue with.



    I'm not. I have said numerous times, Jeter should be a first ballot HOF'er. 

    WAR counts defense heavily for a SS, so to think that Jeter has the second highest SS WAR in MLB over the last 20 years (ARod is #1) tells a lot about his hitting.

    Here's a breakdown of Jeter's "value" from the fangraph's page:

    Batting +329.9 (2nd to ARod and 135 points higher than Nomar in 3rd)

    Running +43.6 (5th out of 129 qualifying SSs since 1994)

    Fielding -136.4 (129th out of 129 SSs)

    Positional +113.2

    Imagine what his WAR would be, if he had been just a 0.0 UZR/150 SS!

     

    Jeter's 74.4 WAR places him 5th out of 925 positional players since 1994.

    1 ARod, 2 Bonds, 3 Pujols, 4 Chipper Jones.

     

    However, out of 925 qualifying players over the last 2 decades, here are the worst valued fielders according to fangraph's value measurement:

    924) Manny   -156.1

    923) B Williams  -154.2

    T922) G Sheffield  -136.4

    T922) D Jeter   -136.4

    920) A Dunn -127.7

     

    917) M Young

     

    904) J Bay

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Jeter does have a great arm for relays, but that's about the best I can say about his defense.

    He's a HOF'er first ballot IMO, but he will always be one of the worst fielding SSs I have ever seen (coming from a fan who cherishes SS range above nearly all else). 

    Sox4ever

     



    Lack of Range-wise to his left, he's up there. Otherwise I highly doubt he's the worst you've ever seen, especially with Lugo manning the patrols for your favorite team.

     

     

     

     




    Call me biased, but with the SS, it's almost all about range to me.

     

     

     

    Lugo had plau range until his injury. He botched easy plays, but he was never the worst fielder for a decade like Jeter has been.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    So Lugo was better than Jeter in the field? I admit Lugo's injury impacted him. However, this comment pretty much speaks for itself.

     

    You are a marvelous analyst; however it appears your credibility has taken a hit. At least you admit bias, so it's a smaller hit.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Look at the range numbers for Lugo before the injury. Yes, he was making maybe 20 more erros than Jeter, but was probably making way more than 50 plays a year on Jeter due to superior range. After the injury? No arguement: hw was as bad or worse than Jeter.

     

    I have never been a Lugo defender. There is no pro-Sox "bias" with me here. I hated the signing and argued with softy for years over Lugo's value. From 2003 to 2006, his range factor/9 was over 4.5. It was 4.21 in 2007, then fell off a cliff with injuries and.or aging. Jeter had one season out of 19 with a RF/9 above 4.5. It's a career 4.08. Lugo's is 4.51 (including the injury years).

    When Lugo became a FT SS until 2007, his UZR/150 was +2.8 (9th out of 22 qualifiers). Jeter was 19th at -.80. More importantly to me, and this may be my bias:

    RngR (2001-2007) 22 qualifying SSs:

    1) Lugo +36.3

    2) AGon +18.5

    4) OCab  +15.0

    22) Jeter -57.0 (Last Place)

    I can't believe I am defending Lugo. softy berated me for saying "we won despite Lugo" and ranted for years about his "wire-to-wire" 2007 season.

    I think his signing turned out to be one of the worst signings, but the injury was a major part of the failure.

    When healthy, Lugo was much better than Jeter. Some here will look at the erros and FLG% and call me nuts. But look further...

    2001-2007:

    Lugo (6367 innings) 134 Errors (.966) PO+A= 3837 (5.4 plays per 9 inn)

    Jete  (7722 innings) 104 Errors (.976) PO+A= 4137 (4.8 plays per 9 inn)

    Over 150 games Lugo made about 90 more plays and 10 more errors (28 to 18).

    Call me biased towards range not FLG%, but it has nothing to do with Sox vs Yanks or any love for Lugo.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Except I'm not a big fan of these new and IMO still highly imperfect metrics, albeit illuminating, There's the crux of our disagreement. And I'm aware that with you it's not an affiliation thing, at least the conscious part.

    Actually, I have the reverse argument with others, who to some degree don't acknowledge Jeter's limitations.

    FWIW, I don't see Lugo, or practically anyone else for that matter, make the FLIP play and some other PS gems; who would have expected that from one of the worst SSs ever?

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Except I'm not a big fan of these new and IMO still highly imperfect metrics, albeit illuminating, There's the crux of our disagreement. And I'm aware that with you it's not an affiliation thing, at least the conscious part.

    Actually, I have the reverse argument with others, who to some degree don't acknowledge Jeter's limitations.

    FWIW, I don't see Lugo, or practically anyone else for that matter, make the FLIP play and some other PS gems; who would have expected that from one of the worst SSs ever?

    Lugo has made plenty of "highlight reel" plays in his career. Many showing good range. He used to be very atheletic.

    The Lugo we saw in Boston was as bad as Jeter, but looking at his career in total, he was better. Jeter has made some great plays. Probabaly all MLb SSs have at some point in their careers, or they wouldn't have stuck to that position throught the minors. If you are a SS in MLB, you are probabaly a very good fielder. The talk on this thread is "relative" to other MLB fielders. Just because you may be one of the wrost MLb SSs over the last decade, does not mean you are "bad" compared to college, HS and sandlot player. Jeter must have been good enough to not be moved to 2B or 3B in the minors or early on in the bigs, but once he became a legend, it was hard to move him.... when probably he should have been.

    Sox4ever

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Except I'm not a big fan of these new and IMO still highly imperfect metrics, albeit illuminating, There's the crux of our disagreement. And I'm aware that with you it's not an affiliation thing, at least the conscious part.

    Actually, I have the reverse argument with others, who to some degree don't acknowledge Jeter's limitations.

    FWIW, I don't see Lugo, or practically anyone else for that matter, make the FLIP play and some other PS gems; who would have expected that from one of the worst SSs ever?

    Lugo has made plenty of "highlight reel" plays in his career. Many showing good range. He used to be very atheletic.

    The Lugo we saw in Boston was as bad as Jeter, but looking at his career in total, he was better. Jeter has made some great plays. Probabaly all MLb SSs have at some point in their careers, or they wouldn't have stuck to that position throught the minors. If you are a SS in MLB, you are probabaly a very good fielder. The talk on this thread is "relative" to other MLB fielders. Just because you may be one of the wrost MLb SSs over the last decade, does not mean you are "bad" compared to college, HS and sandlot player. Jeter must have been good enough to not be moved to 2B or 3B in the minors or early on in the bigs, but once he became a legend, it was hard to move him.... when probably he should have been.

    Sox4ever

     



    Without some of those PS gems, the NYY may not have gotten the brass ring in '99 and '00. And to repeat, the FLIP play was well documented in the Torre book, who, while admitting his limitations, said - He has a unique awareness and internal calculus that was needed to make such a play.

    I guess it's safe to say he's the worst SS ever with 5 GGs, LOL. And the worst SS over a season to ever win that last one.

    Otherwise, I agree, reluctantly. Even his trademark deep in the hole play may have often not have been necessary if he got there in the 1st place.

     

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

     

    the article's tipping point is 06'...right around the time i joined BDC...but i've heard people sniping at Jeter's SS play when they were still winning championships...FTR i don't think Moon will feel particularly validated over something that was/is fairly obvious to most...   

     



    Jete - I've always been a Jeter admirer despite his defensive shortcomings....but isn't it possible those championships were won despite his defense? 

    hey Sonic...yeah very possible/probable, i just mean that in the sense of he wasn't exactly  killing them through those seasons nor in the WS...granted his bat was such they wouldn't want to lose that offense, but i don't think they felt they would need to lift him for defense...i've always wished he was a better defender, but it's not like they had to hold their breath when the ball was hit there 

    [/QUOTE]

    I get it....and having an elite bat - not for a SS, but overall - at SS is huge.  For a few years the infield of Tex/Cano/Jeter/ARod was an amazing offensive force.

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

     

    the article's tipping point is 06'...right around the time i joined BDC...but i've heard people sniping at Jeter's SS play when they were still winning championships...FTR i don't think Moon will feel particularly validated over something that was/is fairly obvious to most...   

     



    Jete - I've always been a Jeter admirer despite his defensive shortcomings....but isn't it possible those championships were won despite his defense? 

     

     

    hey Sonic...yeah very possible/probable, i just mean that in the sense of he wasn't exactly  killing them through those seasons nor in the WS...granted his bat was such they wouldn't want to lose that offense, but i don't think they felt they would need to lift him for defense...i've always wished he was a better defender, but it's not like they had to hold their breath when the ball was hit there 

     

     

    I get it....and having an elite bat - not for a SS, but overall - at SS is huge.  For a few years the infield of Tex/Cano/Jeter/ARod was an amazing offensive force.

     



    And also set a record one season for fewest errors for an IF - 14. Of course, that's only 1 factor. And while UZR-150/RF says something, as far as I know, it doesn't take into account clutch plays, tags on SB/pickoffs, DPs, relays, and intangibles.

     

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    It is not something I relish in defending a Yankee, but judging someones ability and skill level at SS just based on Range does not seem to be fair to me....a SS needs to be judged on many many other factors, probably more than I can even think of, but here are a few.....1) How successfuly does he handle the balls he gets to....b) How Accurate and strong are his throws to 1B c) How strong are his throws from deep in the hole....d) How good are his throws from the cutoff position.....e) How well does he go back on pop ups in fair and foul territory......f) How well does he position himself based on his knowledge of the batters.....g) How well does he trun the double play at 2B.....h) How are his throws to 2b on DP balls....does he set the 2Bmen up for a good turn....i) how is his positioning on cutoffs and backing up other plays....j) How well does he receive and apply the swipe tag on SB attempts.....k) Does he make the play in clutch situations, or does he fold under the pressure(we have all seen many players who dont)....and finally l) the aforementioned range factor......as I said I am sure we could think of more.....and I might even concede that range may be the most important factor, but you can have the greatest range in the world and you will be playing in A balls if you cant do most of the others well.....and from my view watching him over the years, and not comlicated Sabremetric numbers, Jeter would rate pretty high in the other factors....that might not make him a great fielding SS, but it sure as does make him not a bad one.

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to tomnev's comment:

     

    It is not something I relish in defending a Yankee, but judging someones ability and skill level at SS just based on Range does not seem to be fair to me....a SS needs to be judged on many many other factors, probably more than I can even think of, but here are a few.....1) How successfuly does he handle the balls he gets to....b) How Accurate and strong are his throws to 1B c) How strong are his throws from deep in the hole....d) How good are his throws from the cutoff position.....e) How well does he go back on pop ups in fair and foul territory......f) How well does he position himself based on his knowledge of the batters.....g) How well does he trun the double play at 2B.....h) How are his throws to 2b on DP balls....does he set the 2Bmen up for a good turn....i) how is his positioning on cutoffs and backing up other plays....j) How well does he receive and apply the swipe tag on SB attempts.....k) Does he make the play in clutch situations, or does he fold under the pressure(we have all seen many players who dont)....and finally l) the aforementioned range factor......as I said I am sure we could think of more.....and I might even concede that range may be the most important factor, but you can have the greatest range in the world and you will be playing in A balls if you cant do most of the others well.....and from my view watching him over the years, and not comlicated Sabremetric numbers, Jeter would rate pretty high in the other factors....that might not make him a great fielding SS, but it sure as does make him not a bad one.

     



    Well put; on item h, Kubek was supposedly very good at. Otherwise, I agree that range is the most important, but those other factors aren't chopped liver.

    Also, the SS is usually the general out there, which Jeter excells at, of course.

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    I'd hate to be him.

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

     

     

     

    I have to agree with nhsteven---if Jeter is a first ballot he is not the worst SS...what's he getting into the H of F for?

    Jeter has positioned himself over the years to compensate for his slow feet. Jeter , from a die hard Sox fan, would be on my all star team every year. He is so clutch, so team first---I hope if Xander has aspirations they would be to be as good if not better than Jeter. If he holds him in that kind of regard to me that would tell me all I need to know about the kid.

    Jeter is probably one of the top 10 best SS for his combined hitting and fielding ability.

     

     




    If you weight fielding and hitting equally, then no.

     

     

    If you add leadership, clutchness, and other intangibles, then he's up there.

     



    Absurd. I don't care if he played SS like Adam Dunn; the guy's got 5 rings, a 313 BA, and 3300-ish hits.

     

     

     



    Please Steven, I love you, but don't trot out the horrible "ring" argument!   If rings count, then Jeter is 1 worse than Charlie Silvera and 2 worse than Jim Loscutoff.   ;-)

     

     

     



    I doubt the NYY would have won in '99 and 2000 without him. One would think that would be the most important indicator of all; while not the case, to claim Rings ring hollow can be construed as hollow in itself, and one can always find a counter argument for anything; FWIW, Charlie Silvera was a clutch player off the bench, not that he had alot to do with his teams success, because he wasn't starting; so this borders on the preposterous. Also, it appears Boston fans don't have a problem discussing Bill Russell in this regard when comparing him to Wilt, do they? You can't have it both ways.

     

     
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    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    .i've always wished he was a better defender, but it's not like they had to hold their breath when the ball was hit there 

    Jeter has always made the plays hit right at him as good as anyone, however, to me, SS means so much more than that.

    If you're not even looking for it, you won't notice. The "missed plays". I've noticed countless missed plays by Sox short stops over the last 40 years. There are numbers that back up my judgement on those Sox SSs, and there is ample evidence to back up my shorter sample size (but not all that short) observations of Jeter, especially over the last decade or so.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to tomnev's comment:

    It is not something I relish in defending a Yankee, but judging someones ability and skill level at SS just based on Range does not seem to be fair to me....a SS needs to be judged on many many other factors, probably more than I can even think of, but here are a few.....1) How successfuly does he handle the balls he gets to....b) How Accurate and strong are his throws to 1B c) How strong are his throws from deep in the hole....d) How good are his throws from the cutoff position.....e) How well does he go back on pop ups in fair and foul territory......f) How well does he position himself based on his knowledge of the batters.....g) How well does he trun the double play at 2B.....h) How are his throws to 2b on DP balls....does he set the 2Bmen up for a good turn....i) how is his positioning on cutoffs and backing up other plays....j) How well does he receive and apply the swipe tag on SB attempts.....k) Does he make the play in clutch situations, or does he fold under the pressure(we have all seen many players who dont)....and finally l) the aforementioned range factor......as I said I am sure we could think of more.....and I might even concede that range may be the most important factor, but you can have the greatest range in the world and you will be playing in A balls if you cant do most of the others well.....and from my view watching him over the years, and not comlicated Sabremetric numbers, Jeter would rate pretty high in the other factors....that might not make him a great fielding SS, but it sure as does make him not a bad one.



    Jeter may make 10-20 less erros than many SSs, but if he gets to 30-80 less balls than those same ones, I seriously doubt all the defensive intangibles wipe the slate clean and bring him even to others.

    His hitting, leadership and other intangibles is what brings him up to a plus, but he is clearly not even close to an average SS and hasn't been for close to a decade. (In my opinion, he never has been, but I'm only calling him one of the worst of the last decade.)

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    Still over 3000 hits and a first round HOF. 'nough said.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: moonslav you will love this - graphic & video evidence of Jeter's lack of range at shortstop

    In response to GEAUX-TIGRES' comment:

    Still over 3000 hits and a first round HOF. 'nough said.



    The HOF is not about his fielding and range.

    'nough said.

     

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