More hard evidence for the case against Francona

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    I'm more concered with not the physical moves of Tito, but the phycholigcal grasp of the team...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    I'm more concered with not the physical moves of Tito, but the phycholigcal grasp of the team...
    Posted by beavis


    I think a lot of our current issues should be placed on both Theo and Terry.  Injuries don't help but watching some of the decisions being made doesn't leave any doubt in my mind as to why we are struggling.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    An absolutely stunning OP and repeated statments by andremitch defending his assertion.

    First and foremost, the Rays beat the Sox yesterday because the best availalble starter was Weiland and the Rays starter had an ERA under 3.  Plus the Sox have a lousy bullpen (who gave up 5 yesterday) and the Rays have a good one.  What happened was entirely predictable, and I honestly don't see how Francona could have prevented it.

    Second, the third inning dinger was preceded by a freak play--a bat and the ball arriving at Scutaro at the same time.  I wish Scutaro had hung in there, but can understand why he jumped.  Longoria should never have come to bat because Upton should have been the third out and the score 0-0.

    Third, all those stats provided by others, especially the one that says Zobrist is much better with the bases loaded than Longoria with two men on.  Plus right vs. lefty, etc.  You know who can get away with walking someone?  Opposing managers with a righty on the mound and Ortiz at bat and Youk in the on deck circle.  Youk is a very good player, but not right now. 

    Fourth, what is this baloney about being in anyone's head?  The only guy in anyone's head is Longoria, and he is in andremitch's head, period. 

    There is nothing magic about what the Rays are doing.  They have very good pitchers who are also confident and can throw strikes.  The Sox have lousy pitchers who are terrified of challenging hitters.  The Rays are also faster on the basepaths, but that was not a factor last night.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    An absolutely stunning OP and repeated statments by andremitch defending his assertion. First and foremost, the Rays beat the Sox yesterday because the best availalble starter was Weiland and the Rays starter had an ERA under 3.  Plus the Sox have a lousy bullpen (who gave up 5 yesterday) and the Rays have a good one.  What happened was entirely predictable, and I honestly don't see how Francona could have prevented it. Second, the third inning dinger was preceded by a freak play--a bat and the ball arriving at Scutaro at the same time.  I wish Scutaro had hung in there, but can understand why he jumped.  Longoria should never have come to bat because Upton should have been the third out and the score 0-0. Third, all those stats provided by others, especially the one that says Zobrist is much better with the bases loaded than Longoria with two men on.  Plus right vs. lefty, etc.  You know who can get away with walking someone?  Opposing managers with a righty on the mound and Ortiz at bat and Youk in the on deck circle.  Youk is a very good player, but not right now.  Fourth, what is this baloney about being in anyone's head?  The only guy in anyone's head is Longoria, and he is in andremitch's head, period.  There is nothing magic about what the Rays are doing.  They have very good pitchers who are also confident and can throw strikes.  The Sox have lousy pitchers who are terrified of challenging hitters.  The Rays are also faster on the basepaths, but that was not a factor last night.
    Posted by maxbialystock


    max, I agree the Rays do have five capable pitchers.  We have two at the moment along with a very on and off pen.  This has nothing to do with Longoria but I do feel the Rays do "to some extent" get into our players heads when we play them.  I like Francona but also feel Maddon may be a better manager in crucial situations.  If our team was healthy and had the staff many thought we did this season I really don't believe Tampa would be an issue at this point.

    We have internal issues that have slowly become more evident the last couple of years.  These issues might/should be addressed if we miss the playoffs this season.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    How can Francona continue to let Longoria beat him? There was absolutely no reason to pitch to him and let him; does Francona think Zobrist is even in the same league as Longoria? He should be walked intentionally every possible AB.  Let Francona get into the Rays heads the way Maddon gets into some of our guys. Simply pathetic.  OK - I am ready for the Francona sympathizers now - let's hear the defense........
    Posted by andrewmitch
    The thing is Francona and Maddon were up for the job of manager of the Red Sox at the same time. The Sox liked Maddon but felt they needed someone with more experience which Maddon did not have at that time. Guess what?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
      In fairness to Weiland,the main reason Tampa got 4 runs off of him in the 3rd inning is because of the broken bat hit to Scutaro with 2 outs.About 99.9% of the time,that's the 3rd out and he's done with the inning and starts off clean in the 4th.    Yes,he still allowed the HR to Longoria,but normally Longoria wouldn't have even been hitting in that inning with 2 runners on.I think he was pitching fairly well and just encountered some bad luck.
    Posted by mrmojo1120
    I watched that whole thing happened and thought that Weilland was pitching pretty well. The broken bat thing has been discussed on all the sports news since last night's game and how it was the undoing for the Sox. Why didn't Scutaro go for the ball since the bat was on the ground and sliding toward him.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    It's easy to see that Francona is managing not to lose rather than the better way of managing to win.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : max, I agree the Rays do have five capable pitchers.  We have two at the moment along with a very on and off pen.  This has nothing to do with Longoria but I do feel the Rays do "to some extent" get into our players heads when we play them.  I like Francona but also feel Maddon may be a better manager in crucial situations.  If our team was healthy and had the staff many thought we did this season I really don't believe Tampa would be an issue at this point. We have internal issues that have slowly become more evident the last couple of years.  These issues might/should be addressed if we miss the playoffs this season.
    Posted by craze4sox
    Maddon was talked about yesterday on the MLB Network as being a mad scientist and how he loves to play this role. He is a much better manager than Tito. I saw that last year.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    An absolutely stunning OP and repeated statments by andremitch defending his assertion. First and foremost, the Rays beat the Sox yesterday because the best availalble starter was Weiland and the Rays starter had an ERA under 3.  Plus the Sox have a lousy bullpen (who gave up 5 yesterday) and the Rays have a good one.  What happened was entirely predictable, and I honestly don't see how Francona could have prevented it. Second, the third inning dinger was preceded by a freak play--a bat and the ball arriving at Scutaro at the same time.  I wish Scutaro had hung in there, but can understand why he jumped.  Longoria should never have come to bat because Upton should have been the third out and the score 0-0. Third, all those stats provided by others, especially the one that says Zobrist is much better with the bases loaded than Longoria with two men on.  Plus right vs. lefty, etc.  You know who can get away with walking someone?  Opposing managers with a righty on the mound and Ortiz at bat and Youk in the on deck circle.  Youk is a very good player, but not right now.  Fourth, what is this baloney about being in anyone's head?  The only guy in anyone's head is Longoria, and he is in andremitch's head, period.  There is nothing magic about what the Rays are doing.  They have very good pitchers who are also confident and can throw strikes.  The Sox have lousy pitchers who are terrified of challenging hitters.  The Rays are also faster on the basepaths, but that was not a factor last night.
    Posted by maxbialystock



    no the best available starter is Aceves...why is this guy on the bench when inferior starters are allowed to get shelled for over a month in a tight pennant race?? our manager thinks Aceves' three innings of relief every five games is more important than starting every five games...I'm sorry but this is insane...this rookie Weiland has no business starting games in september....when i talk about a lack of urgency on boston's part it includes the manager...literally fiddling while rome is burning....just pitch your best pitchers and leave them in until you have to remove them...instead we get the usual musical chairs in the bullpen after the starters give up 5 runs in 4 innings...the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    And once again, Francona lets Longoria beat him

    Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Evan Longoria 3 - Teri Francona 2

    Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Dobbs?  Anyone??????????
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : You are clueless.  There is not a single manager who would employ that strategy so early in a game.  Sparky Anderson may be the lone exception to this but something like that would probably be employed approximately once a decade!  The problem with this team isn't Francona.  It is a decimated pitching staff which snowballs because you have guys like Kyle Weiland starting games  so that you need to go into the bullpen in the 3rd or 4th inning.  This in turn causes a ripple effect that depletes the entire bullpen because guys are suddenly pitching longer for multiple innings and shouldering much more of the workload then they signed on for.  Furthermore at the end of any 162 game season these guys are already wasted so this further depletes them.  All you bashers haven't the first idea how to manage a team when they're healthy let alone in situations when 40% of the team is beat up or on the DL.  Francona is still one of the top 5 managers in all of baseball. John Henry did not make billions throwing money away on stupid business ventures and wouldn't keep a guy like Francona around if he was a lousy manager.  That means a great deal more than trolls like you with 8 freakin' posts!  Where are you  when this team is in a good mode.  Nowhere to be seen like all trolls!
    Posted by william93063

    Great post.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    You guys can not believe that Zobrist has a better chance to drive in a run than Longoria?  Or can you??????  I would walk Longoria in nearly every AB this entire series and be very open about it.  Think about it - you essentially eliminate their best hitter and you significantly decrease their chances of winning.  He does not have protection in line up.  Go for throat.  Expose the weakness.  If Zobrist beats you then you aren't a good enough team to make the playoffs.  But if you let Longoria beat you then you are too stupid to be in the playoffs.
    Posted by andrewmitch


    You're insane.  Longoria is their best hitter, but he has an OPS of .828.  Zobrist has an .811.  You don't intentionally walk someone, then take the worst of a L/R matchup, all to save .017 in OPS.

    Do you know how many IBB Longoria has this year?  5 in 500+ PAs.  Other managers IBB him once every 100 ABs and you want to walk him every time?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    no the best available starter is Aceves...why is this guy on the bench when inferior starters are allowed to get shelled for over a month in a tight pennant race?? our manager thinks Aceves' three innings of relief every five games is more important than starting every five games.

    Aceves' has been about 100x more effective coming out of the BP than starting.

    1-1 with a 5.14 v 9-1 with a 2.25.

    If that's not enough, Aceves has pitched more than 5 innings once in three years.

    So when you pull him in the 5th, who do you bring in?  Weiland?

    I'd actually agree if this was the last game and we had to win.  But to cut out 33% of our BP with a 4-game lead is panicking, imo.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

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    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    "It's only the 2nd inning" and "It's only Septmeber" These games need to be played with much more a sense of urgency.  Is it better than Longoria hits a 3 Run Homer in the 7th inning or the 2nd inning?  Correct me if I am wrong here because I ain't no manager for a billionaire but I believe both equal 3 runs, correct?
    Posted by andrewmitch


    Believe me, many have tried. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

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    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    Dobbs?  Anyone??????????
    Posted by andrewmitch


    Yes, me.  Count me in.  Andrew mitch?  Only andrewmitch. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    You guys can not believe that Zobrist has a better chance to drive in a run than Longoria?  Or can you??????  I would walk Longoria in nearly every AB this entire series and be very open about it.  Think about it - you essentially eliminate their best hitter and you significantly decrease their chances of winning.  He does not have protection in line up.  Go for throat.  Expose the weakness.  If Zobrist beats you then you aren't a good enough team to make the playoffs.  But if you let Longoria beat you then you are too stupid to be in the playoffs.
    Posted by andrewmitch


    And this is a big part of the reason you are not a manager.

    Even if Zobrist is not as successful as often, you are gving him chances at more RBI merely by putting Longoria on base repeatedly.  Zobrist wouldn't have to get the hit as often as Longoria, because when he finally does come through, it will be worth more runs.

    You still don't understand how OBP works, do you?

    Putting people on base = bad.  Thinking you can neutralize an offense by repeatedly walking a hitter who will only be successful 3 times out of ten = worse. 

    Not to mention, you completely underestimate what a good player Ben Zobrist is.  And why you think he is incapable of driving in runs when he has 82 RBI this year - a whopping 6 fewer than Longoria - is beyond me. 

    Say, by chance did you know the Rays are 19-13 (.591) in games Evan Longoaria didn't start this year, and 64-55 (.537) in games he did?  Maybe someone else on that team actually can play....
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    no the best available starter is Aceves...why is this guy on the bench when inferior starters are allowed to get shelled for over a month in a tight pennant race?? our manager thinks Aceves' three innings of relief every five games is more important than starting every five games . Aceves' has been about 100x more effective coming out of the BP than starting. 1-1 with a 5.14 v 9-1 with a 2.25. If that's not enough, Aceves has pitched more than 5 innings once in three years. So when you pull him in the 5th, who do you bring in?  Weiland? I'd actually agree if this was the last game and we had to win.  But to cut out 33% of our BP with a 4-game lead is panicking, imo.
    Posted by Joebreidey

    Nice post, Joe. Also, with the starters we have had recently, having Aceves for 2-3 IP every 5 games is worth more than 1 game of 4-5 IP every 5 games.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : And this is a big part of the reason you are not a manager. Even if Zobrist is not as successful as often, you are gving him chances at more RBI merely by putting Longoria on base repeatedly.  Zobrist wouldn't have to get the hit as often as Longoria, because when he finally does come through, it will be worth more runs. You still don't understand how OBP works, do you? Putting people on base = bad.  Thinking you can neutralize an offense by repeatedly walking a hitter who will only be successful 3 times out of ten = worse.  Not to mention, you completely underestimate what a good player Ben Zobrist is.  And why you think he is incapable of driving in runs when he has 82 RBI this year - a whopping 6 fewer than Longoria - is beyond me.  Say, by chance did you know the Rays are 19-13 (.591) in games Evan Longoaria didn't start this year, and 64-55 (.537) in games he did?  Maybe someone else on that team actually can play....
    Posted by notin

    Yes, TB is not a one man team, but Longoria's numbers were effected by his injury and slow recovery.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : And this is a big part of the reason you are not a manager. Even if Zobrist is not as successful as often, you are gving him chances at more RBI merely by putting Longoria on base repeatedly.  Zobrist wouldn't have to get the hit as often as Longoria, because when he finally does come through, it will be worth more runs. You still don't understand how OBP works, do you? Putting people on base = bad.  Thinking you can neutralize an offense by repeatedly walking a hitter who will only be successful 3 times out of ten = worse.  Not to mention, you completely underestimate what a good player Ben Zobrist is.  And why you think he is incapable of driving in runs when he has 82 RBI this year - a whopping 6 fewer than Longoria - is beyond me.  Say, by chance did you know the Rays are 19-13 (.591) in games Evan Longoaria didn't start this year, and 64-55 (.537) in games he did?  Maybe someone else on that team actually can play....
    Posted by notin


    This is what I love.  Andrewbitch comes up with a really bad idea, and blames Tito for not trying.  A modicum of research woud've shown him that Longoria gets an IBB less than 1% of his PAs.  You'd have thought that would kind of act as a warning sign and lead him to ask why no one in BB gives him an IBB.

    Another funny part is that Longoria hasn't really hit us much this year.  He's hugely dangerous, but going into tonight's game, he had 2 HRs and a .208, and we've actually walked him more than any other team this year.

    Do you think that po' Andy knows any of this?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from joerock22. Show joerock22's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    I'm sorry, but didn't Francona win 2 World Series with this team?  I can't seem to remember...  He can't be that bad. 

    If you're that mad at Francona, ask Grady Little to come back.  Or don't you want to go back to those days? 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from saxydogg77. Show saxydogg77's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    You trolls are hilarious.  You've made up your mind:  "Fire Francoma", "Fire Theo".  Nothing anyone can say, no cold hard stats anyone can produce will ever change your simple, hateful minds.  Why don't you just end it all and let the rest of us enjoy this unprecedented Red Sox run in peace?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Andrewmitch was on here one night about two months ago and said that he was a headstrong Sox fan. Headstrong means obstinate, set in your ways. He is apparently aware of his temperament and personality but can't help himself. He won't change. It's just the way that he roots and thinks.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    By andrew's rationale, I guess Joe Maddon is a stupid manager too for pitching to Ortiz. If he doesn't pitch to Ortiz, the Rays would have won, 3-2.
     
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