More hard evidence for the case against Francona

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : This is what I love.  Andrewbitch comes up with a really bad idea, and blames Tito for not trying.  A modicum of research woud've shown him that Longoria gets an IBB less than 1% of his PAs.  You'd have thought that would kind of act as a warning sign and lead him to ask why no one in BB gives him an IBB. Another funny part is that Longoria hasn't really hit us much this year.  He's hugely dangerous, but going into tonight's game, he had 2 HRs and a .208, and we've actually walked him more than any other team this year. Do you think that po' Andy knows any of this?
    Posted by Joebreidey


    "Po Andy" - that's almost as good as 'Andrew b*tch'.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    I'm sorry, but didn't Francona win 2 World Series with this team?  I can't seem to remember...  He can't be that bad.  If you're that mad at Francona, ask Grady Little to come back.  Or don't you want to go back to those days? 
    Posted by joerock22


    If the Sox don't win this year, then Francona hasn't won a World Seris title in FOUR YEARS!!!

    Last I checked, that would be the third longest drought in team history.  More important, it would be the longest drought in which the team only had one manager.  So  think we can all see where the problem is....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    William 93063 is one of the few people on this board that make complete sense. There isn't another manager in the league, not one, who would walk Longoria in the second inning to load the bases with a 14 year old pitcher on the mound. Nope I change my mind... we need to have a raffle and make anyone who posts on this board the next manager of the Red Sox! It's obvious Francona knows nothing about the game after being a part of MLB for 30 years. The fact that this is the most successful 10 year stretch in the team's existence all comes down to... what? The players? Nope you can't give them credit, because if you give them credit for winning you must give them credit for losing and AndrewMitch can't do that. It must be something else but it is certainly NOT Theo, Tito or the players. Maybe that's why Ortiz points to the sky when he gets a hit. A higher power helps the Sox win. The only thing that makes me happy when the Sox lose is to know that the Sarah Palin's of baseball on this board will be distraught. I used to think Yankees fans were the bigges whiners... my apologies. Dude- if Longoria doesn't homer WE ONLY SCORED 2 RUNS HOW CAN YOU WIN SCORING TWO RUNS MAYBE CRAWFORD CAN GET A HIT FROM TIME TO TIME WITH RUNNERS ON. THAT'S TITO'S FAULT TOO HE SHOULD ONLY PLAY PLAYERS WHO WILL HIT HOMERUNS THAT NIGHT. I ALSO BLAME HIM FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ. SOX 2,3,4,5 pitchers and the pen all stink. That's why we've blown this lead. PERIOD. Sorry for the ALL CAPS that was terrible.
    Posted by Wolfpack13


    Thank you Wolf,

    Common sense seems to be not so common these days(and in addition to many armchair reactionary Monday Morning quarterbacks on these message boards and the callers of the Sport's Hub and WEEI the criminals in Washington come to mind and I'm referring to both major parties, the trouble is they are both partying at our expense) but Francona is a man with more then his fair share.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : And this is a big part of the reason you are not a manager. Even if Zobrist is not as successful as often, you are gving him chances at more RBI merely by putting Longoria on base repeatedly.  Zobrist wouldn't have to get the hit as often as Longoria, because when he finally does come through, it will be worth more runs. You still don't understand how OBP works, do you? Putting people on base = bad.  Thinking you can neutralize an offense by repeatedly walking a hitter who will only be successful 3 times out of ten = worse.  Not to mention, you completely underestimate what a good player Ben Zobrist is.  And why you think he is incapable of driving in runs when he has 82 RBI this year - a whopping 6 fewer than Longoria - is beyond me.  Say, by chance did you know the Rays are 19-13 (.591) in games Evan Longoaria didn't start this year, and 64-55 (.537) in games he did?  Maybe someone else on that team actually can play....
    Posted by notin


    Really?  So any manager who issues an IBB is being stupid?

    Again, you are going by averages and I am going by potential.  No one on The Rays team has close to the potential that Longoria does at hurting you.  Period. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Andrew your are right he does have the most potential to hurt you.
    However you do not IBB a guy every time. That would mean insteas of 3 for 10 at best he'd be 10 for 10. Yes it is not a hit but it is a man on base. Which means the guys behind him when they are successful they score runs. BTW Longoria is a good base stealer thus many IBBs become doubles against the RS then what? You use the IBB when it is to your advantage and only then. Giving a man 10 free IBB/singles is just dumb on all accounts.
    BTW the potential for Zobrist this year is equal to Longoria.

    You are also saying based upon potential the Rays should IBB Agon every time since he has more potential to hurt you than Youk or Pedroia if they are hitting 4th.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Jim,

    Re:  Longoria's base stealing ability.  Given Casey Kotchman and nearly half of the senior citizen's in the Boston Metro area could run at all vs Tek, I think that point is irrelevant.

    Re:  10/10 vs 3/10 = Compute the Slugging % and RBI in those 2 different scenarios.

    Re:  The Gonzo analogy.  I disagree.  He has Ortiz batting behind him.  Is there anyone in the Rays line up even on the same planet as Ortiz?

    -  AndrewMitch
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    The stolen bases were stolen off of Beckett's slow move to the plate. Why place all of the blame on Tek? As a comprimise, one could blame both equally. That's now the style however a a bitter, headsrong, obstinate person named Andrew.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    andrewmitch, I think some pretty strong counter-arguments have been made here against walking Longoria.

    However, I do agree that Longoria has been a guy who has consistently hurt us, especially at Fenway.  In 32 career games in our park, including the 2008 ALCS, he now has 11 HR and 32 RBI.    
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Yes do look at the Slg% and RBIs for Longoria and Zobrist they are almost the same  and there are miniscule differences.

    The scenario had to do with your contention of potential not the differences from the RS batting order to the Rays. As for potential Agon has more than Ortiz just as you say Longoria has more than Zobrist. Yes the differences are minuscule as they are with Longoria and Zobrist. I'm using your Rays scenario with the RS so I'm comparing apples to apples.
    You just compared Ortiz to the Rays changing your theory.
    Remember your theory had to do with POTENTIAL on that team not another team.

    SBs can not be irrelvant. Your theory says to walk Longoria every time. So if anyone can steal off of Tek (your statement) that means you have just given Longoria 10 doubles aka 10 IBBs and 10 SB

    Let's take your theory a step further. Based upon IBBing the guy who can hurt you the most who would you IBB everytime on the RS? Jake, Agon, Ortiz???
    You can not IBB any one ALL the time. You do it when it is to your advantage only, And I contend that when it does not work Terry would still get hammered for.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    One of the questions is, when you compare Longoria and Zobrist numbers, which ones do you look at-season averages, career averages, numbers vs. pitcher, numbers in ballpark?

    If you look at career numbers in Fenway there is no comparison.  Longoria's slugging pct. is .570, Zobrist's is .344.  Longoria has 11 home runs at Fenway (including postseason), Zobrist has 1.

    While not fully agreeing with andrewmitch's point, I think he is correct that Longoria has proven much more dangerous to us than Zobrist.  
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Hfxsoxnut - so you get my point then based on your last 2 posts.  finally :)

    Jim - I was saying compare the Slugging % and RBI in a 3 for 10 for 3 Bombs vs 10 IBB's........The 3 for 10 would equal at least 6 RBI (given at least one man would have to be on in order to do the opposite and walk him) and the 10 IBB's would equal NO RBI given I said you would not IBB w/ bases juiced......That's the comparison that needs to be made.  In short, and counter to what little league coaches brain wash their players w/, a walk is NOT as good as a hit.........and then you bring up the RS.  Why?  They HAVE protection that line up.  The Rays do not.  That's why you could isolate Longoria; that has to be the #1 strategy to beating the Rays.  Make Evan irrelevant.......Rays can not win without his bat on a consistent basis.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Andrew went to the gamethread with his TALKING POINT in hand last night. It was " Do not let Longoria beat you, walk him everytime up". So Andrew had his ego gratification all set up on this. Why bother enjoying the game when you can play the EGO game instead?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    And Andrew was right.

    You however, only come on here to attack other posters.  And I've had about enough of you.  Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    How can Francona continue to let Longoria beat him? There was absolutely no reason to pitch to him and let him; does Francona think Zobrist is even in the same league as Longoria? He should be walked intentionally every possible AB.  Let Francona get into the Rays heads the way Maddon gets into some of our guys. Simply pathetic.  OK - I am ready for the Francona sympathizers now - let's hear the defense........
    Posted by andrewmitch



    So you think that Longoria should be intentionally walked every at bat.  Even in the first inning with the bases empty.  Thanks for letting me know you don't need to be taken seriously.  I can't even believe you wrote that.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : Really?  So any manager who issues an IBB is being stupid? Again, you are going by averages and I am going by potential.  No one on The Rays team has close to the potential that Longoria does at hurting you.  Period. 
    Posted by andrewmitch


    What is the difference between Longoria's OPS and Zobrist's OPS?  You can't just ignore the numbers, and hope that everyone else will.

    If issuing an IBB to Longoria is so important, how come no one else does?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to More hard evidence for the case against Francona : So you think that Longoria should be intentionally walked every at bat.  Even in the first inning with the bases empty.  Thanks for letting me know you don't need to be taken seriously.  I can't even believe you wrote that.
    Posted by snakeoil123


    In 8,952 PAs in the 1st inning, there have been 10 IBBs.  That is one per 895.2 PAs.  That means the odds of AM being right are approximately 895.2-1.  It's incredible that anyone would even suggest it.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Re:  The Gonzo analogy.  I disagree.  He has Ortiz batting behind him.  Is there anyone in the Rays line up even on the same planet as Ortiz?

    Just out of curiosity, if no one on TB is on the same planet as Ortiz, then why doesn't Maddon IBB Ortiz every AB?  I mean, if you're saying Longoria is not on the same planet as Papi, and Longoria should be IBB'd every AB, then why shouldn't Papi?

    And just to take it a step further, if we should walk Longoria because he has an .840 OPS, and Gonzo, Pedroia, Papi, and Ellsbury all have higher OPS', then by your standards, shouldn't Maddon give an intentional walk to Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzo, and Papi to start the game?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    I remember an at-bat in Game 3 of the 2007 ALDS against the Angels when Schilling issued the classic 'unintentional intentional' walk to Vlad Guerrero.  There were 2 outs and runners on first and third, Willits on deck.  Schilling didn't give Guerrero anything remotely resembling a hittable pitch, and ended up walking him.  He then got Willits fairly easily.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : What is the difference between Longoria's OPS and Zobrist's OPS?  You can't just ignore the numbers, and hope that everyone else will. If issuing an IBB to Longoria is so important, how come no one else does?
    Posted by Joebreidey


    Joe, you really need to stop looking at what other managers do. Other than that, how are you?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    One of the questions is, when you compare Longoria and Zobrist numbers, which ones do you look at-season averages, career averages, numbers vs. pitcher, numbers in ballpark? If you look at career numbers in Fenway there is no comparison.  Longoria's slugging pct. is .570, Zobrist's is .344.  Longoria has 11 home runs at Fenway (including postseason), Zobrist has 1. While not fully agreeing with andrewmitch's point, I think he is correct that Longoria has proven much more dangerous to us than Zobrist.  
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut

    You can not look at anything but this year since what is in the past is in the past and has no bearing on today.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

     I certainly wouldn't walk Longoria every time up, but I would walk him in critical situations just as I would walk Ortiz, if I were Madden, in similar situations. Some folks use season-long stats to determine how a manager should make decisions but those can be misleading when a hitter, for example, has had a great 1st half of the season and a mediocre 2nd half. That is to say I would presently pitch to Gonzalez and walk Ortiz in tight situations. And in like manner, Albers had a great first half of the season and a lousy 2nd half, so I'd only pitch him now in total blowouts. If a guy has been red-hot lately, it really doesn't matter what his season-long stats indicate.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    Joebriedy the problem with your post is that you are using your head. Sox fans such as AndrewMitch use their heart. If what AndrewMitch said made any sense AT ALL you would see 3-4 intentional walks in every baseball game. Why would any team pitch to Robinson Cano when there's no one near as good as him behind him in the order? Pujols would be walked 1-2 times a game! Why didn't the Yankees IBB Bautista EVERY SINGLE AT BAT last night? If managers knew the game as well as AndrewMitch... Bautista would have a minimum, MINIMUM 162 IBBs. They don't do this and Tito doesn't do this because IT IS IDIOTIC.
    Can you imagine Francona IBB walking Longoria 2-3 times a game?!? Ha what a joke. By the way... when did Evan Longoria become All the other posters who defend Tito to rock heads like AM are wasting their time... all AndrewMitch does is yell at his tv screen all night at Francona and even when the Sox win he says "they won despite Francona." No one other than 10% of dumb Sox fans think Francona knows nothing about the game.
    Andrewmitch... I have been on this board for 2 years it is the dumbest post and defense of your argument I have ever read.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona

    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona:
    In Response to Re: More hard evidence for the case against Francona : Joe, you really need to stop looking at what other managers do. Other than that, how are you?
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    I'm fine.

    But if you are going to judge what Tito does, you have to do that in context of what others do.  That doesn't always determine your strategy, but it gives you a guideline.  If you see managers do something 50% of the time, and Tito does it 45% or 55% of the time, I don't pay much attention to it.  If he does it 100% or 0% of the time, then maybe you have to wonder.

    At the end of the day, if no one does it, then no one does it.  Saying that no one does it, therefore Tito is wrong FOR NOT DOING IT, is insane.  There is a reason why Longoria gets an IBB less than 1% of his PAs.

    Unless you're willing to say that all 30 managers are wrong, then you have no point.  And even if all 30 are wrong, which they aren't, it still makes Tito equal to them.

    At the end of the day, either all 30 managers, making about $100M between them, are right, or AM is right.

    My money is on the 30 managers.
     
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