Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    The Red Sox have promoted as many 22-23 year old prospects as any team in the AL East over the past five years ... yes, that include the Rays.

     
  2. This post has been removed.

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Myths Dispelled #1: Sox management has not promoted hardly any young prospects for opening day, other than Pedroia.

    The issue isn't who is being promoted, the issue is when. Space is working overtime to try and defend sending Bradley to the minors. His "I'm on the board" was cowardly CYA. He's working so hard to defend Red Sox managment, that he's framing the issue in a way that has nothing to do with the issue of Bradley "breaking camp" with the "big club". And I hate those childish terms.



    So now you hate standard baseball terminology as well as the Red Sox? I always said you were an equal opportunity hater. :-)

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Fishing for Trout: Do Red Sox prospects move too slowly?

    by: Alex Speier on Tue, 11/13/2012 - 10:34am

    Mike Trout won AL Rookie of the Year honors in his age 20 season. The last time the Sox had a 20-year-old in the majors was 1995. (AP)The 2012 season altered perceptions of what young players can accomplish in the big leagues.

    On Monday, Mike Trout became the youngest American League Rookie of the Year recipient ever when his season for the ages -- achieved as a 20-year-old -- earned unanimous recognition in balloting. In the National League, Bryce Harper -- who excelled as a 19-year-old -- became the youngest NL position player to win the award, and the second youngest ever behind only Dwight Gooden.

    Those two were not alone in their precocious dominance. Orioles third baseman Manny Machado, who turned 20 in July, also played a key role in helping Baltimore reach the playoffs for the first time since 1997. Jurickson Profar made his big league debut as a 19-year-old; his talent as a teenager is such that there is already a case to be made that he’s rendered one of Texas’ All-Star middle infielders (Elvis Andrus and Ian Kinsler) expendable.

    It was a dazzling display by four remarkable young talents. In particular, the debuts by Trout and Harper ranked among the best in major league history by players of their ages.

    In New England, the mesmerizing accomplishments of those players also came with a question: Why don’t the Red Sox have such impactful young players? And with that came a corollary: Why do the Red Sox wait so long to graduate their prospects to the big leagues?

    Fans were not alone in posing such questions. Team CEO/president Larry Lucchino even raised the point near the end of the season in an interview on WEEI’s Dennis & Callahan.

    “Baseball is a game for the young. As cliched as it sounds, I've been saying that over and over, particularly this year. It is a game for young players,” said Lucchino. “We're seeing it with the Trouts, the shortstop in Texas, some of the younger players that have come up, to be sure. I think there is a reason for that. I think that has to do with the effectiveness of the Commissioner's drug program -- I think that the removal of the steroid curse, and equally important, the elimination of amphetamines. ... The game became, has become, much more a game for younger players.

    “We have taken a very conservative approach historically to the advancement of players in our minor league system,” Lucchino added. “I think that's just an undeniable fact. I hope that as we focus more on scouting and player development in the next few years in particular, that will change -- that there will be a presumption for slightly more rapid growth.”

    The statement was an intriguing one on a number of levels, suggesting a possible rift in the operating philosophy of the team’s baseball operation. But, upon further examination, it also seems that Lucchino’s premise may have been flawed.

    The Red Sox have not had a Trout or a Harper or a Jason Heyward or a Giancarlo Stanton come up in recent years. But they’re not alone. Such standout talents rarely come along. It’s not uncommon for a team to have one such player emerge every decade or three.

    In the last 10 years, there are nine teams that haven’t had a single player reach the majors by his age 20 season. The Sox are among them. But that reflects, at least in part, on where the team has drafted (almost always, for the last 44 years, late in the first round), meaning that the opportunities to take high schoolers with prodigious almost-straight-to-the-majors skill sets have not existed. At the same time, the team’s limited success in the international amateur market has meant that, for the last decade, the team has been without players who were ready to advance to the big leagues after being signed at age 16.

    But the idea that the Sox follow a typically conservative player development course is somewhat misleading. The team is actually fairly aggressive in terms of its placements of players according to levels for their ages, even at the risk of permitting prospects to struggle against more advanced competition, since such adversity offers the opportunity for growth.

    Typically, when a player is a borderline call between two levels, the team will err on the side of pushing him to the more advanced level. That pattern has been seen with players such as Jose Iglesias (who was assigned to Triple-A Pawtucket as a 21-year-old at the start of 2011), Xander Bogaerts (who opened this year as the youngest position player in the Carolina League), Henry Owens (who was assigned to full-season Single-A Greenville this year despite never having pitched after being drafted last summer) and many more.

    That said, the Sox also reside in a division that, for nearly two decades, has been the most ferocious in the game. The standard for big league readiness in the AL East has simply been different than it has been in other divisions for two primary reasons.

    First, the potential for a younger, overmatched prospect to get his brains beaten in is increased. Secondly, teams have less latitude to permit players to develop in the big leagues while maintaining their competitive ambitions.

    Still, within the framework of the daunting AL East, the Sox have still been as aggressive as any team in the division in promoting their young players to the big leagues. Over the last five years, the Sox are tied for the lead in the AL East in terms of the most players age 22 and under (7) and the most players 23 and under (13). Despite the fact that the team is in perennial contention (or, at least, it was until 2012), it has brought up as many 22-year-olds in the last five years as the Blue Jays and Orioles, and more than either the Yankees or Rays.

    Put another way: Which Red Sox players have remained in the minors beyond the point of their readiness for the big leagues? The examples are limited.

    Ryan Lavarnway likely was ready to move up to the big leagues this year before his August promotion. However, the Sox had arguably the most productive catching tandem in the American League (Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Kelly Shoppach) blocking his path through the first four months of the year. Finally, the team decided to dump Shoppach shortly after the trade deadline to open a spot for Lavarnway.

    A case can be made that the Sox should have found a way to bring Clay Buchholz back to the majors earlier in 2009 than ended up being the case. He spent all of the first half dominating in Triple-A Pawtucket, remaining behind pitchers like Brady Penny and John Smoltz while the Sox tried to figure out whether either could contribute meaningfully to the rotation.

    Beyond those two, it seems difficult to find instances in which the Sox didn’t put their most talented prospects on relatively fast tracks to the big leagues, aside, perhaps, from spending a couple weeks playing with call-up dates to save the team from an extra year of salary arbitration or to guarantee an extra season of pre-free agent big league service time.

    Will Middlebrooks had all of 40 games in Triple-A by the time he made his big league debut this year. Ryan Kalish had spent 37 games in Pawtucket when the Sox moved him into their starting lineup in 2010. Jacoby Ellsbury had barely had time to unpack in a locker in Pawtucket in 2007 when he reached the majors. Both Josh Reddick and Justin Masterson were promoted to the big leagues directly from Double-A.

    Daniel Bard spent less than two months in Pawtucket in 2009 before he was moved up; Jon Lester was in Triple-A for less than three months before his big league debut in 2006 (and that duration was largely a result of the team’s effort to manage his innings increase). Dustin Pedroia was given a permanent spot in the big leagues at the start of 2007 at a time when no one but he and Red Sox front office members thought he was ready for it.

    By and large, then, the Sox have actually been fairly aggressive in moving their players up through the system. Few would have suggested otherwise until 2012, when the emergence of a few young stars who aren’t yet old enough to drink coincided with the move through the system of the Sox’ most dazzling prospect in years in Xander Bogaerts, who at 19 years old performed at an elite level against both High-A and Double-A competition, finishing the year as the first Sox teenager since Tony Conigliaro with at least 20 homers at any level(s).

    So why wasn’t Bogaerts promoted to the big leagues?

    Several reasons. First, he had spent just 23 games in Double-A at the end of the year -- considerably less than the 58 games that Harper spent in Double-A and Triple-A before his call-up, or the 111 games in the upper levels that Trout played before his permanent spot was forged on the Angels’ roster, or the 109 games that Machado spent this year in Double-A.

    And while Bogaerts held his own in Portland, hitting .326 with a .351 OBP, .598 slugging mark and .948 OPS in 23 games, he also had one walk and 21 strikeouts. That disparity suggests that he needs to make advances in his ability to work deeper into counts and to handle breaking stuff at the upper levels before he’s in position to contribute at the big league level.

    Moreover, there are other relevant considerations related to Bogaerts’ service time and status. The Sox would have had to add him to the 40-man roster and thus likely burn an unnecessary option on him at the start of 2013 to send him back down to the minors. At the same time, the team would have had to clear a 40-man spot for him, meaning that a September trial for Bogaerts would have meant the loss of another player in the organization. And, of course, it’s possible that a September trial could have accelerated Bogaerts’ path to either salary arbitration or free agency by a year – somewhat pointlessly, given that the Sox had nothing to play for in September, at a time when the team also needed to gauge the big league readiness of Jose Iglesias at shortstop.

    Team officials acknowledged that they might have considered a call-up for Bogaerts had they been in contention and if he was the best candidate to address an area of need. Had the team been in the same position as the Orioles, then the logic expressed by Dan Duquette in adding Machado to its big league roster -- “Our future is now,” Duquette said in September of the service time decision with Machado -- might have prevailed in Boston with Bogaerts as well.

    But given the different circumstances, there seemed little point to rushing Bogaerts beyond the pace at which he is already blitzing through the minors. At 19, Bogaerts was the second youngest position player in the Carolina League and the youngest in the Eastern League. He’s already moving quickly. It would be hard to say that there's a screaming need for him to move any faster, or that the team has been particularly conservative about his development path, or those of any of their other players.

    "Traditionally, over the last 10 years or so, the major league team has been very competitive," explained Sox farm director Ben Crockett. "All three of those guys this year (Trout, Harper, Machado) are on teams that [were] in the [postseason] hunt, but in general, it's hard to break young players in in that type of situation. It's also based on need of those teams, that a young player might provide an upgrade on what they had or fits well into the mix. Those guys are also pretty elite talents, were able to succeed at every level.

    "[But] in general, I think our teams are young for their level, going through team by team, with a couple of them within the youngest couple in their league at any given time. It's a mix. You want to push guys and challenge guys, you don't want to push guys over their head where they're going to fail and potentially take a step back. It's not an exact science, but it's a balance of trying to push guys to a place where they can hone whatever they need to improve and have them in a place where they have a chance to succeed but also are challenged by the level."

    The Sox will promote players to the big leagues when a) they represent the best option to help the team win and b) winning matters. Those circumstances prevailed for a few teams in a remarkable 2012 season with a potentially historic class of young rookies in Trout, Harper and Machado (not to mention another insanely gifted young player in Dylan Bundy who made his big league debut with the O's). They were not in play for the Red Sox.

    Still, for an organization that makes no secret of its belief that its hopes of a return to competitive success must be driven by a fertile farm system, there should be plenty of opportunities in the coming seasons to see young players matriculating to the majors at a fairly aggressive pace.




     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Fishing for Trout: Do Red Sox prospects move too slowly?

    by: Alex Speier on Tue, 11/13/2012 - 10:34am

    Mike Trout won AL Rookie of the Year honors in his age 20 season. The last time the Sox had a 20-year-old in the majors was 1995. (AP)The 2012 season altered perceptions of what young players can accomplish in the big leagues.

    On Monday, Mike Trout became the youngest American League Rookie of the Year recipient ever when his season for the ages -- achieved as a 20-year-old -- earned unanimous recognition in balloting. In the National League, Bryce Harper -- who excelled as a 19-year-old -- became the youngest NL position player to win the award, and the second youngest ever behind only Dwight Gooden.

    Those two were not alone in their precocious dominance. Orioles third baseman Manny Machado, who turned 20 in July, also played a key role in helping Baltimore reach the playoffs for the first time since 1997. Jurickson Profar made his big league debut as a 19-year-old; his talent as a teenager is such that there is already a case to be made that he’s rendered one of Texas’ All-Star middle infielders (Elvis Andrus and Ian Kinsler) expendable.

    It was a dazzling display by four remarkable young talents. In particular, the debuts by Trout and Harper ranked among the best in major league history by players of their ages.

    In New England, the mesmerizing accomplishments of those players also came with a question: Why don’t the Red Sox have such impactful young players? And with that came a corollary: Why do the Red Sox wait so long to graduate their prospects to the big leagues?

    Fans were not alone in posing such questions. Team CEO/president Larry Lucchino even raised the point near the end of the season in an interview on WEEI’s Dennis & Callahan.

    “Baseball is a game for the young. As cliched as it sounds, I've been saying that over and over, particularly this year. It is a game for young players,” said Lucchino. “We're seeing it with the Trouts, the shortstop in Texas, some of the younger players that have come up, to be sure. I think there is a reason for that. I think that has to do with the effectiveness of the Commissioner's drug program -- I think that the removal of the steroid curse, and equally important, the elimination of amphetamines. ... The game became, has become, much more a game for younger players.

    We have taken a very conservative approach historically to the advancement of players in our minor league system,” Lucchino added. “I think that's just an undeniable fact. I hope that as we focus more on scouting and player development in the next few years in particular, that will change -- that there will be a presumption for slightly more rapid growth.”

    The statement was an intriguing one on a number of levels, suggesting a possible rift in the operating philosophy of the team’s baseball operation. But, upon further examination, it also seems that Lucchino’s premise may have been flawed.

    The Red Sox have not had a Trout or a Harper or a Jason Heyward or a Giancarlo Stanton come up in recent years. But they’re not alone. Such standout talents rarely come along. It’s not uncommon for a team to have one such player emerge every decade or three.

    In the last 10 years, there are nine teams that haven’t had a single player reach the majors by his age 20 season. The Sox are among them. But that reflects, at least in part, on where the team has drafted (almost always, for the last 44 years, late in the first round), meaning that the opportunities to take high schoolers with prodigious almost-straight-to-the-majors skill sets have not existed. At the same time, the team’s limited success in the international amateur market has meant that, for the last decade, the team has been without players who were ready to advance to the big leagues after being signed at age 16.

    But the idea that the Sox follow a typically conservative player development course is somewhat misleading. The team is actually fairly aggressive in terms of its placements of players according to levels for their ages, even at the risk of permitting prospects to struggle against more advanced competition, since such adversity offers the opportunity for growth.

    Typically, when a player is a borderline call between two levels, the team will err on the side of pushing him to the more advanced level. That pattern has been seen with players such as Jose Iglesias (who was assigned to Triple-A Pawtucket as a 21-year-old at the start of 2011), Xander Bogaerts (who opened this year as the youngest position player in the Carolina League), Henry Owens (who was assigned to full-season Single-A Greenville this year despite never having pitched after being drafted last summer) and many more.

    That said, the Sox also reside in a division that, for nearly two decades, has been the most ferocious in the game. The standard for big league readiness in the AL East has simply been different than it has been in other divisions for two primary reasons.

    First, the potential for a younger, overmatched prospect to get his brains beaten in is increased. Secondly, teams have less latitude to permit players to develop in the big leagues while maintaining their competitive ambitions.

    Still, within the framework of the daunting AL East, the Sox have still been as aggressive as any team in the division in promoting their young players to the big leagues. Over the last five years, the Sox are tied for the lead in the AL East in terms of the most players age 22 and under (7) and the most players 23 and under (13). Despite the fact that the team is in perennial contention (or, at least, it was until 2012), it has brought up as many 22-year-olds in the last five years as the Blue Jays and Orioles, and more than either the Yankees or Rays.

    Put another way: Which Red Sox players have remained in the minors beyond the point of their readiness for the big leagues? The examples are limited.

    Ryan Lavarnway likely was ready to move up to the big leagues this year before his August promotion. However, the Sox had arguably the most productive catching tandem in the American League (Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Kelly Shoppach) blocking his path through the first four months of the year. Finally, the team decided to dump Shoppach shortly after the trade deadline to open a spot for Lavarnway.

    A case can be made that the Sox should have found a way to bring Clay Buchholz back to the majors earlier in 2009 than ended up being the case. He spent all of the first half dominating in Triple-A Pawtucket, remaining behind pitchers like Brady Penny and John Smoltz while the Sox tried to figure out whether either could contribute meaningfully to the rotation.

    Beyond those two, it seems difficult to find instances in which the Sox didn’t put their most talented prospects on relatively fast tracks to the big leagues, aside, perhaps, from spending a couple weeks playing with call-up dates to save the team from an extra year of salary arbitration or to guarantee an extra season of pre-free agent big league service time.

    Will Middlebrooks had all of 40 games in Triple-A by the time he made his big league debut this year. Ryan Kalish had spent 37 games in Pawtucket when the Sox moved him into their starting lineup in 2010. Jacoby Ellsbury had barely had time to unpack in a locker in Pawtucket in 2007 when he reached the majors. Both Josh Reddick and Justin Masterson were promoted to the big leagues directly from Double-A.

    Daniel Bard spent less than two months in Pawtucket in 2009 before he was moved up; Jon Lester was in Triple-A for less than three months before his big league debut in 2006 (and that duration was largely a result of the team’s effort to manage his innings increase). Dustin Pedroia was given a permanent spot in the big leagues at the start of 2007 at a time when no one but he and Red Sox front office members thought he was ready for it.

    By and large, then, the Sox have actually been fairly aggressive in moving their players up through the system. Few would have suggested otherwise until 2012, when the emergence of a few young stars who aren’t yet old enough to drink coincided with the move through the system of the Sox’ most dazzling prospect in years in Xander Bogaerts, who at 19 years old performed at an elite level against both High-A and Double-A competition, finishing the year as the first Sox teenager since Tony Conigliaro with at least 20 homers at any level(s).

    So why wasn’t Bogaerts promoted to the big leagues?

    Several reasons. First, he had spent just 23 games in Double-A at the end of the year -- considerably less than the 58 games that Harper spent in Double-A and Triple-A before his call-up, or the 111 games in the upper levels that Trout played before his permanent spot was forged on the Angels’ roster, or the 109 games that Machado spent this year in Double-A.

    And while Bogaerts held his own in Portland, hitting .326 with a .351 OBP, .598 slugging mark and .948 OPS in 23 games, he also had one walk and 21 strikeouts. That disparity suggests that he needs to make advances in his ability to work deeper into counts and to handle breaking stuff at the upper levels before he’s in position to contribute at the big league level.

    Moreover, there are other relevant considerations related to Bogaerts’ service time and status. The Sox would have had to add him to the 40-man roster and thus likely burn an unnecessary option on him at the start of 2013 to send him back down to the minors. At the same time, the team would have had to clear a 40-man spot for him, meaning that a September trial for Bogaerts would have meant the loss of another player in the organization. And, of course, it’s possible that a September trial could have accelerated Bogaerts’ path to either salary arbitration or free agency by a year – somewhat pointlessly, given that the Sox had nothing to play for in September, at a time when the team also needed to gauge the big league readiness of Jose Iglesias at shortstop.

    Team officials acknowledged that they might have considered a call-up for Bogaerts had they been in contention and if he was the best candidate to address an area of need. Had the team been in the same position as the Orioles, then the logic expressed by Dan Duquette in adding Machado to its big league roster -- “Our future is now,” Duquette said in September of the service time decision with Machado -- might have prevailed in Boston with Bogaerts as well.

    But given the different circumstances, there seemed little point to rushing Bogaerts beyond the pace at which he is already blitzing through the minors. At 19, Bogaerts was the second youngest position player in the Carolina League and the youngest in the Eastern League. He’s already moving quickly. It would be hard to say that there's a screaming need for him to move any faster, or that the team has been particularly conservative about his development path, or those of any of their other players.

    "Traditionally, over the last 10 years or so, the major league team has been very competitive," explained Sox farm director Ben Crockett. "All three of those guys this year (Trout, Harper, Machado) are on teams that [were] in the [postseason] hunt, but in general, it's hard to break young players in in that type of situation. It's also based on need of those teams, that a young player might provide an upgrade on what they had or fits well into the mix. Those guys are also pretty elite talents, were able to succeed at every level.

    "[But] in general, I think our teams are young for their level, going through team by team, with a couple of them within the youngest couple in their league at any given time. It's a mix. You want to push guys and challenge guys, you don't want to push guys over their head where they're going to fail and potentially take a step back. It's not an exact science, but it's a balance of trying to push guys to a place where they can hone whatever they need to improve and have them in a place where they have a chance to succeed but also are challenged by the level."

    The Sox will promote players to the big leagues when a) they represent the best option to help the team win and b) winning matters. Those circumstances prevailed for a few teams in a remarkable 2012 season with a potentially historic class of young rookies in Trout, Harper and Machado (not to mention another insanely gifted young player in Dylan Bundy who made his big league debut with the O's). They were not in play for the Red Sox.

    Still, for an organization that makes no secret of its belief that its hopes of a return to competitive success must be driven by a fertile farm system, there should be plenty of opportunities in the coming seasons to see young players matriculating to the majors at a fairly aggressive pace.




    Good article. Did you read it, besides the bolded paragraph?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Basically that big article would suggest that the Sox have promoted almost all their young talent who deserved it at an early age..

    Lester

    Buchholz

    Pedey

    WMB

    Ellsbury

    Bard

    Doubront

    Kalish

    Reddick

    Just because they dont make the opening day roster doesnt change the fact that ALL these players were 22-23 years old. I thought their age was the arguement, not WHEN they were promoted...You got proved wrong and now are trying to move the goal posts.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Myths Dispelled #1: Sox management has not promoted hardly any young prospects for opening day, other than Pedroia.

    The issue isn't who is being promoted, the issue is when. Space is working overtime to try and defend sending Bradley to the minors. His "I'm on the board" was cowardly CYA. He's working so hard to defend Red Sox managment, that he's framing the issue in a way that has nothing to do with the issue of Bradley "breaking camp" with the "big club". And I hate those childish terms.



    Softy, my friend, all I can say is my view on Bradley is a. not static unlike your views on every player, and b. no matter how you paint me, I am not defending sending Bradley to the minors to start the year.  I am "on board" due to a combination of Bradley's excellent camp and the nature of the injury puzzle on the projected opening day roster.  I am "on board" to give Bradley a spot so Gomes and others can DH platoon while Papi is out.  If he steps up big from the get go, keep him up and let the Bradley Era begin.  Barring undeniable success though, I am, however, "on board' to make sure he gets his 20 back in Rhode Island for the smart-money gamble that it will be worth it down the line.

    Had I, like you are wont to do, written my opnion of Bradley in stone from the get go, I suppose it would be cowardly to reverse my entrenched position.  But, that is never how I approach my analysis of the fickle and subtle game of baseball.  If you do not allow for fluxuations and change in performance, You will rarely be correct in your analysis.  I have no problem allowing for my own thoughts on Bradley to evolve over the course of this camp from "great prospect, but given his performance last year, best to let him season at Pawtucket for a while" to "you know, this kid might just be star dust, if the circumstances are right, lets see what he can do".  

    So, I appreciate your typical slanders, calling me cowardly and my terms childish.  But I'll take my open view and continue to be happy being "on board", thank you.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Just because they dont make the opening day roster doesnt change the fact that ALL these players were 22-23 years old. I thought their age was the arguement, not WHEN they were promoted...

    Yeah, focusing on "making the opening day roster" is rather bizarre and seems utterly beside the point. Trout and Harper are cited every time this discussion comes up, but they didn't make their teams' opening day rosters. I haven't done any research on this, but I'd guess that the category of prospects who make a major league roster for the very first time coming out of spring training (in other words, no September call-up or "cup of coffee" of any other sort the year before) is a very small one.

     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Just because they dont make the opening day roster doesnt change the fact that ALL these players were 22-23 years old. I thought their age was the arguement, not WHEN they were promoted...

    Yeah, focusing on "making the opening day roster" is rather bizarre and seems utterly beside the point. Trout and Harper are cited every time this discussion comes up, but they didn't make their teams' opening day rosters. I haven't done any research on this, but I'd guess that the category of prospects who make a major league roster for the very first time coming out of spring training (in other words, no September call-up or "cup of coffee" of any other sort the year before) is a very small one.




    Yeah, kind of trivial when they come up. The arguement is age.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Just because they dont make the opening day roster doesnt change the fact that ALL these players were 22-23 years old. 

    It's classic softy bait and switch.

    He makes a statement, gets proven wrong, then attempts to change the accepted definition of the term to fit his slant.

    The Sox have clearly had many player basically jump over AAA and get a shot in the majors. The challenge is to show which players did great at a young age that you felt could have done great had they been called up earlier. The article suggests Buchholz, but look what happened in 2008. That year, he later admitted he had lost confidence in himself. One could argue, we should have waited longer. 

    In the past, when softy was pressed to "name names" on who "Wastefield" was holding back, he responded, "Doubront" at the time Doubront was on the DL and then recovering and rehabbing in AAA through May. That was also the year that Felix famously came to camp out of shape, and yet softy wanted to reward him with the 5 slot. Later, he resonded, "Weiland", and we all know how that worked out (0-3  7.66 and 8.72  in his 5 starts). BTW, Weiland was 0-3 with a 6.62 ERA in the league that softy thinks is more like AAAA than MLB.

    Should we have brought Lava up earlier?

    Should we have brought Kelly up earlier?

    Craig Hanson?

    Masterson?

    Rizzo?

     

    I do agree, we should have started Iggy last year, but I really don't see asny clear examples of wasted youth.

     

     

     
  16. This post has been removed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to UnionFallsNY's comment:

     

    Were Machado and Trout brought up on opening day last year?

     



    Trout was brought up in July of 2011. He hit .163 that month and ended at .220. I suppose softy thinks he should have started on day 1 2011.

     

    His first game in 2012 was April 28th.

    Machado was called up in August of 2012.

    Hmm...

     

    Minor league PAs:

    Trout 1312

    JBJ       615

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Myths Dispelled #1: Sox management has not promoted hardly any young prospects for opening day, other than Pedroia.

    The issue isn't who is being promoted, the issue is when. Space is working overtime to try and defend sending Bradley to the minors. His "I'm on the board" was cowardly CYA. He's working so hard to defend Red Sox managment, that he's framing the issue in a way that has nothing to do with the issue of Bradley "breaking camp" with the "big club". And I hate those childish terms.



    Breaking Camp is a childish term? You invent terms left and right and you criticize breaking camp?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Just because they dont make the opening day roster doesnt change the fact that ALL these players were 22-23 years old. 

    It's classic softy bait and switch.

    He makes a statement, gets proven wrong, then attempts to change the accepted definition of the term to fit his slant.

    The Sox have clearly had many player basically jump over AAA and get a shot in the majors. The challenge is to show which players did great at a young age that you felt could have done great had they been called up earlier. The article suggests Buchholz, but look what happened in 2008. That year, he later admitted he had lost confidence in himself. One could argue, we should have waited longer. 

    In the past, when softy was pressed to "name names" on who "Wastefield" was holding back, he responded, "Doubront" at the time Doubront was on the DL and then recovering and rehabbing in AAA through May. That was also the year that Felix famously came to camp out of shape, and yet softy wanted to reward him with the 5 slot. Later, he resonded, "Weiland", and we all know how that worked out (0-3  7.66 and 8.72  in his 5 starts). BTW, Weiland was 0-3 with a 6.62 ERA in the league that softy thinks is more like AAAA than MLB.

    Should we have brought Lava up earlier?

    Should we have brought Kelly up earlier?

    Craig Hanson?

    Masterson?

    Rizzo?

     

    I do agree, we should have started Iggy last year, but I really don't see asny clear examples of wasted youth.

     

     



    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

    Yes, too early.

    I'm still waiting for someone to name names of all the great Sox prospects held down too long, compare that number to the ones brought up too early or right on time, and then make your point again.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

    Yes, too early.

    I'm still waiting for someone to name names of all the great Sox prospects held down too long, compare that number to the ones brought up too early or right on time, and then make your point again.



    You're not seriously expecting softlaw, geo or ADG to support their position with actual facts are you?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

    Yes, too early.

    I'm still waiting for someone to name names of all the great Sox prospects held down too long, compare that number to the ones brought up too early or right on time, and then make your point again.

     



    You're not seriously expecting softlaw, geo or ADG to support their position with actual facts are you?

     



    maybe you should tell Lucchino that he is wrong about being very conservative about moving players up....after all you seem to know more than him

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to UnionFallsNY's comment:

     

    Were Machado and Trout brought up on opening day last year?

     



    Trout was brought up in July of 2011. He hit .163 that month and ended at .220. I suppose softy thinks he should have started on day 1 2011.

     

    His first game in 2012 was April 28th.

    Machado was called up in August of 2012.

    Hmm...

     

    Minor league PAs:

    Trout 1312

    JBJ       615



    Moon,  I believe JBJ played college baseball and Trout did not.  Those are addition low A ball type of ABs that shouldn't be discounted.  I am not sure how many years he played but the numbers might be much closer to the ABs that Trout had if you add them in.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

    Yes, too early.

    I'm still waiting for someone to name names of all the great Sox prospects held down too long, compare that number to the ones brought up too early or right on time, and then make your point again.

     



    You're not seriously expecting softlaw, geo or ADG to support their position with actual facts are you?

     

     



    maybe you should tell Lucchino that he is wrong about being very conservative about moving players up....after all you seem to know more than him

     




    Someone in the FO has probably shown LL the numbers and told him he's wrong.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Craig Hanson is the best example of bring up a player to early.

    Yes, too early.

    I'm still waiting for someone to name names of all the great Sox prospects held down too long, compare that number to the ones brought up too early or right on time, and then make your point again.

     



    You're not seriously expecting softlaw, geo or ADG to support their position with actual facts are you?

     

     



    maybe you should tell Lucchino that he is wrong about being very conservative about moving players up....after all you seem to know more than him

     




    So now you take his word as gold?Maybe we should have brought all those guys up at age 20-21, because thats about all his statement could suggest.

    We have listed names over the last decade of the Sox prospects that were brought up at the age of 22-23. Those are plain facts that CANT be disputed.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share