Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    how many years did Bowden languish in pawtucket....anyone? anyone?

    its a good thing we had wakefield pitching in 2011 when we needed that win late in the season, right?

    Seriously? You are choosing Bowden as your poster boy for who we kept down too long?

    1) It wasn't Wake who was our worst starter in 2011. It was Lackey and then Andrew Miller.

    The guy who was next in line was not and should not have been Bowden, it was actually the younger guy, Doubront, who came to camp out of shape and wasn't "handed the job" because he went on the DL. They gave Weiland a shot and he had an 8.00+ ERA.  I guess you like that better than Wake, and Kyle has done great since then. So has Bowden.

     

    The fact is, we haven't had any Trouts (who also was not handed the job out of ST in his first MLB season either. Name the names of anyone besides Youk and Boggs (thanks notin) who were clearly held back too long.

     

    Middlebrooks and Ciriaco? Really?

    Will had just 397 AA PAs and 160 AAA PAs. I don't recall anyone, including you claiming he should have been our starting 3Bman opening day 2012.

    Ciriaco? He had a couple partial MLB seasons before us. His career minor league OBP in over 3000 PAs was .299. Sounds like a guy we were too cautious about? You do realize he cam back down to earth his last 111 PAs last year.

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Dont you think if Craig Hanson was ever meant to be any good he would have found a way to eventually succeed?




    I'm just glad he eventually helped us get Jason Bay when we had to get rid of Manny.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Dont you think if Craig Hanson was ever meant to be any good he would have found a way to eventually succeed?




    Not really, player development can definitely be retarded.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Joe,

    So, are you implying his 36 IP in a partial season in AAA in 2006, a full season in AAA in 2007 (51 IP) and a partial season in 2008 before the trade somehow might have stunted his growth?

    BTW, it's not like a 3.23 reliever ERA in AAA is that great, and a 1.472 AAA WHIP is downright lousy.

    I guess it's possible he may have done better had he jumped more quickly from AA(where he did well)  to MLB, but there is really no clear case that proves we held back any prospect too much, since maybe Youk.

    I'm kinda glad we never handed the FT job to Weiland, Bowden, or the overweight Doubront of 2011.

    Should we be playing Brentz, Lava(oops, he's not a "softy rookie") and Webster or DLR?

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

     

     



    Name any MLB position player for any team who came up throuhh the minors and was handed an opening day roster spot with no MLB experience....

     

     



    thank you

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The only player I can think of in recent history who was handed an opening day starting spot with NO previous MLB experience is Albert Pujols. And if anyone is going to argue that Bradley is even close to Albert Pujols, the team would be idiotic not to retain the extra year of control.

     

    Especially since all the people who think this team NEEDS JACKIE BRADLEY RIGHT AWAY NOW TODAY WITHOUT QUESTION are also all the same people who feel this is a lost season and a .500 team at best. 

     

    Or is georom convinced that those first 10 games from Bradley will launch this ".500 team at best" (his words) into playoff contention??

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    ...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    One thing the Red Sox do that might mislead myopic fans is that they often leverage a position with a backup plan by contracting a free agent vet.  Remember JT Snow?  Obviously, the Red Sox didn't need him, as Youk exceeded expectations as a first baseman.   On the surface of things, a petulant fan might criticize the organization for a wasted signing, but if Youk didn't deliver, they would have at least had a good fielder and passable hitter as a backup.  It's basically a backup plan or insurance policy, and while the Steven Drew signing is not completely analogous to this one because Drew was signed for a lot more money, there are similiarities.  

    By the way, an earlier post asked if there was a Red Sox prospect that was held back too long?  While I agree with the premise of the OP of this thread, I do submit Youk as Exhibit A of a prospect, who in retrospect, looks as if the team may have missed one or two of his prime years.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:


    why is it so hard to admit a mistake...whats with you folks? grow up...the sox are too cautious....did you really need LL to tell you that? how many dumpster signings do you have to endure before you realize that this org just dosnt count on rookies contributing? 

     

    once again please explain to me how Aviles/punto made the team last spring but Middlebrooks/pedro C didnt (especially pedro given his performance/valentine's endorsement) even get a roster spot?



    LOL

    If the sox didn't make these "dumpster signings" and the rookies choked, you'd be whining about the Sox not having a backup plan.


    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don't remember you saying a thing about Milldlebrooks last Spring.

     

    Speaking of admitting mistakes, when is Larry going to apologize to us for hiring the worst manager in baseball last year?

    I think we deserve one, after enduring that season.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:

     

    One thing the Red Sox do that might mislead myopic fans is that they often leverage a position with a backup plan by contracting a free agent vet.  Remember JT Snow?  Obviously, the Red Sox didn't need him, as Youk exceeded expectations as a first baseman.   On the surface of things, a petulant fan might criticize the organization for a wasted signing, but if Youk didn't deliver, they would have at least had a good fielder and passable hitter as a backup.  It's basically a backup plan or insurance policy, and while the Steven Drew signing is not completely analogous to this one because Drew was signed for a lot more money, there are similiarities.  

    By the way, an earlier post asked if there was a Red Sox prospect that was held back too long?  While I agree with the premise of the OP of this thread, I do submit Youk as Exhibit A of a prospect, who in retrospect, looks as if the team may have missed one or two of his prime years.

     




    I would partially agree with Youk, but we had batting champion Bill Mueller at 3b in 2003-05...Kinda hard to give him playing time. He got some playing time and then went FT in 2006 at age 27 when Mueller was gone.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:

     

    One thing the Red Sox do that might mislead myopic fans is that they often leverage a position with a backup plan by contracting a free agent vet.  Remember JT Snow?  Obviously, the Red Sox didn't need him, as Youk exceeded expectations as a first baseman.   On the surface of things, a petulant fan might criticize the organization for a wasted signing, but if Youk didn't deliver, they would have at least had a good fielder and passable hitter as a backup.  It's basically a backup plan or insurance policy, and while the Steven Drew signing is not completely analogous to this one because Drew was signed for a lot more money, there are similiarities.  

    By the way, an earlier post asked if there was a Red Sox prospect that was held back too long?  While I agree with the premise of the OP of this thread, I do submit Youk as Exhibit A of a prospect, who in retrospect, looks as if the team may have missed one or two of his prime years.

     




    I would partially agree with Youk, but we had batting champion Bill Mueller at 3b in 2003-05...Kinda hard to give him playing time. He got some playing time and then went FT in 2006 at age 27 when Mueller was gone.

     



    Exactly. The one case that could be made for a good player being kept down, was the right call by Theo anyways.

    I guess one could argue for having Youk at 1B instead of Millar, but Kevin had an .857 OPS in 2004 while Youk started at .780 in about 250 PAs.

    2005 saw Millar slip to about .750, and Youk probabaly would have done better, but then Youk did not fit softy's warped criteria at this point.

    Anyone here think Youk should have been FT in 2004?

    Millar .857

    Mueller .811

    When Youk did finall become a FT'er, he had an .810 OPS that year (2006).

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    how many years did Bowden languish in pawtucket....anyone? anyone?

    its a good thing we had wakefield pitching in 2011 when we needed that win late in the season, right?

    Seriously? You are choosing Bowden as your poster boy for who we kept down too long?

    1) It wasn't Wake who was our worst starter in 2011. It was Lackey and then Andrew Miller.

    The guy who was next in line was not and should not have been Bowden, it was actually the younger guy, Doubront, who came to camp out of shape and wasn't "handed the job" because he went on the DL. They gave Weiland a shot and he had an 8.00+ ERA.  I guess you like that better than Wake, and Kyle has done great since then. So has Bowden.

     

    The fact is, we haven't had any Trouts (who also was not handed the job out of ST in his first MLB season either. Name the names of anyone besides Youk and Boggs (thanks notin) who were clearly held back too long.

     

    Middlebrooks and Ciriaco? Really?

    Will had just 397 AA PAs and 160 AAA PAs. I don't recall anyone, including you claiming he should have been our starting 3Bman opening day 2012.

    Ciriaco? He had a couple partial MLB seasons before us. His career minor league OBP in over 3000 PAs was .299. Sounds like a guy we were too cautious about? You do realize he cam back down to earth his last 111 PAs last year.

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Joe,

    So, are you implying his 36 IP in a partial season in AAA in 2006, a full season in AAA in 2007 (51 IP) and a partial season in 2008 before the trade somehow might have stunted his growth?

    BTW, it's not like a 3.23 reliever ERA in AAA is that great, and a 1.472 AAA WHIP is downright lousy.

    I guess it's possible he may have done better had he jumped more quickly from AA(where he did well)  to MLB, but there is really no clear case that proves we held back any prospect too much, since maybe Youk.

    I'm kinda glad we never handed the FT job to Weiland, Bowden, or the overweight Doubront of 2011.

    Should we be playing Brentz, Lava(oops, he's not a "softy rookie") and Webster or DLR?

     

     



    He shouldn't have been on the 40 man and called up in 2005. He held out briefly in 2005 on top of that. He should save started 2006 in the minors.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.



    did you really just say wakefield was in better shape than FD? seriously...very funny

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.

     



    did you really just say wakefield was in better shape than FD? seriously...very funny

     

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox



    and he also thought signing BV was a good idea. So how smart can he really be??

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment: 

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

    and he also thought signing BV was a good idea. So how smart can he really be??



    LOL...well played.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.

     



    did you really just say wakefield was in better shape than FD? seriously...very funny

     

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

     



    and he also thought signing BV was a good idea. So how smart can he really be??

     



    so where does that leave Ben with his moves? In the Insane Asylum?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.

     



    did you really just say wakefield was in better shape than FD? seriously...very funny

    No, of course not, I said Doubront came to camp out of shape, went on the DL when he had a chance to win the 5th slot, then fell on the depth chart to below Miller and Weiland. I guess that doesn't mean he was worse than them, but he never got his chance. Also, Lackey was worse than Wake, so another point could and should be that if Doubie was to be given a shot, it would/should have been for Lackey not Wake.

     

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

    I have admitted I missed it. I said I was sorry. Maybe you missed it. I hope you're not going to pull a softy and keep bringing up my past mistakes that I have admitted to.

    ;)

     

    BTW, I'm still waiting on a list of Sox prospects held back too long.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

    The entire case you're trying to make here boils down to one big appeal to authority. You've been asked to provide examples of prospects the Red Sox kept down too long and haven't been able to do so (Bowden? Ciriaco?? Seriously?); the very article you posted on page 1 examines the issue in depth and provides a number of examples that dispel the notion that the Red Sox promote their prospects too slowly, and other posters have provided still more examples. So you keep falling back on the one quote by Lucchino, which is really all you have to base your position on.

    Sorry, but I'm not a believer in Lucchino's infallibility, and his opinion in this case doesn't appear to be supported by the facts. It's time to let this one go.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Maybe we should have let the fat Doubie pitch in 2011.

    Or Weiland get 25 starts.

    Or Bowden.

    Or ______.

     

     


    no  we had wakefield..we were honored as fans to see him go for the record...how did that work out for you?

    The same as it worked out for you:

    better than Lackey

    better than Weiland

    better than Miller

    Doubront was not an option early on, and was lower on depth chart than those listed above- maybe due to being out of shape.

     



    did you really just say wakefield was in better shape than FD? seriously...very funny

     

    btw, once again i think you need to contact lucchino about not understanding the red sox promotion scheme and being wrong about what he said...after all Moon you have 10 million posts and LL is only CEO/Pres of the red sox

     



    and he also thought signing BV was a good idea. So how smart can he really be??

     

     



    so where does that leave Ben with his moves? In the Insane Asylum?

     



    well he didn't want BV so he's got that working for him. and in his first offseason not handcuffed by the old GMs mistakes he has put together a competitive team without sacrificing and developmental pieces. So i'd say that leaves him in a pretty good place.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    well he didn't want BV so he's got that working for him. and in his first offseason not handcuffed by the old GMs mistakes he has put together a competitive team without sacrificing and developmental pieces. So i'd say that leaves him in a pretty good place.

    Since the Dodger trade, there is nothing to brag about.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    well he didn't want BV so he's got that working for him. and in his first offseason not handcuffed by the old GMs mistakes he has put together a competitive team without sacrificing and developmental pieces. So i'd say that leaves him in a pretty good place.

    Since the Dodger trade, there is nothing to brag about.



    according to you... you'd rather the sox give up on 3013 and plan for the future.

    i don't see why we can't compete this year AND plan for the future..... that's exactly what we did. our future is very bright and there is a lot to like about this 2013 team. probably couldn't say that if they had enacted your plan of laying down for 2013.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Myths Dispelled #1: Sox Management Overly-Conservative in Promoting Young Prospects to Big Club

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    The only 2 players the Sox really left in the minors too long I can think of are Youkilis and Wade Boggs.  And that lengthy list covers 30 years.

     



    And with Youk, they had Bill mueller, who was a batting champion, playing 3b at the time.

     



    ....and in 1981 3B Carney Lansford hit .336 for the Sox....plus people seem to think Boggs was in his late 20s when he was promoted rather than 24...

     
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