napoli...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: napoli...

    You just named 3 catchers who all hit 300+ homers. Mauer won't sniff 200 homers.... please dont make me do more research just to show the obvious

    So now the only consideration for HOF is HRs, and not average?  So how did Boggs and Carew get in?

    And FWIW, you've come full circle in your illogic.

    If HRs are all that matter for HOF voting, then I presume that makes Hapoli even more valuable.  Napoli has probably 50% more HRs per PA than either Carter or Fisk.  I can therefore presume that, if Napoli plays as long as Fisk and Carter, then you'd consider him HOF material, based solely on HRs.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: napoli...

    The next step in the discussion is that SPs should only be paid 20% of what hitters get since they only play 20% of the games.

    No, because good SPs actually face more batters over a full season than any hitter ever faces  a pitcher. (Some face 800-950 batters or opponent PAs per season.)

    Joe, I was just mentioning the Ks to make a point. I do not value or devalue players due to Ks or K-rates. Get on base, hit for power, play defense, and I could care less if all your outs are Ks.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from 808soxfan. Show 808soxfan's posts

    Re: napoli...

    If the Napoli project fails, what about Berkman on contract for a year or two with Bogaerts after that?

    If Papi's ankle acts up, Berkman woud be nice to have.

    Meanwhile, Bogaerts would need a spot. I've only read reports about his SS skills or lack thereof. 3rd is taken by WMB. Seems like we are going to fill the outfield with Gomes/C Ross/Swisher/Ells and a cast of many.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You just named 3 catchers who all hit 300+ homers. Mauer won't sniff 200 homers.... please dont make me do more research just to show the obvious

    So now the only consideration for HOF is HRs, and not average?  So how did Boggs and Carew get in?

    And FWIW, you've come full circle in your illogic.

    If HRs are all that matter for HOF voting, then I presume that makes Hapoli even more valuable.  Napoli has probably 50% more HRs per PA than either Carter or Fisk.  I can therefore presume that, if Napoli plays as long as Fisk and Carter, then you'd consider him HOF material, based solely on HRs.

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Not my logic. It is the HOF voters logic. Their is nothing legendary whatsoever about Mauer.

    ..... if he had 3,000 hits or 300 homers .... he will need one or the other. Oh and his batting average must remain above .300. A World Series Ring? He needs to have two of these four things to get in.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The next step in the discussion is that SPs should only be paid 20% of what hitters get since they only play 20% of the games.

    No, because good SPs actually face more batters over a full season than any hitter ever faces  a pitcher. (Some face 800-950 batters or opponent PAs per season.)

    Joe, I was just mentioning the Ks to make a point. I do not value or devalue players due to Ks or K-rates. Get on base, hit for power, play defense, and I could care less if all your outs are Ks.

    [/QUOTE]

    My concern, or more precisely, my amusement was about how we cannot project Napoli because he doesn't play a full season, notwithstanding the fact that no catcher plays a full season.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The next step in the discussion is that SPs should only be paid 20% of what hitters get since they only play 20% of the games.

    No, because good SPs actually face more batters over a full season than any hitter ever faces  a pitcher. (Some face 800-950 batters or opponent PAs per season.)

    Joe, I was just mentioning the Ks to make a point. I do not value or devalue players due to Ks or K-rates. Get on base, hit for power, play defense, and I could care less if all your outs are Ks.

    [/QUOTE]

    My concern, or more precisely, my amusement was about how we cannot project Napoli because he doesn't play a full season, notwithstanding the fact that no catcher plays a full season.

    [/QUOTE]

    He's not really even a FT catcher. He has played a lot at 1B and some at DH. His limited PAs should not be fully attributed to being a catcher. Most years there are about 30 catchers with more innings caught than him, so I don't buy the "catcher needs more rest" argument.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You just named 3 catchers who all hit 300+ homers. Mauer won't sniff 200 homers.... please dont make me do more research just to show the obvious

    So now the only consideration for HOF is HRs, and not average?  So how did Boggs and Carew get in?

    And FWIW, you've come full circle in your illogic.

    If HRs are all that matter for HOF voting, then I presume that makes Hapoli even more valuable.  Napoli has probably 50% more HRs per PA than either Carter or Fisk.  I can therefore presume that, if Napoli plays as long as Fisk and Carter, then you'd consider him HOF material, based solely on HRs.

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Not my logic. It is the HOF voters logic. Their is nothing legendary whatsoever about Mauer.

    ..... if he had 3,000 hits or 300 homers .... he will need one or the other. Oh and his batting average must remain above .300. A World Series Ring? He needs to have two of these four things to get in.

    [/QUOTE]

    Why does he need one or the other?  Larkin didn't have that when he was voted in last year.  Alomar didn't have it when he was voted in the year before.  Neither did Ryne Sandberg, Ozzie Smith, or Kirby Puckett.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    Is Larkin a catcher?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    joe 99% of anything I said about Napoli stemmed from Drewski trumping his high OPS... to which I simply countered that his OPS probably would never be that high had the guy played regularly in 145+ games a year. Come on now and look at his stats... he has hundreds upon hundreds fewer bats then all the other OPS leaders Drewski named. 

    Joey Votto was probably the only player listed that comes close to Napoli in terms of AB's and GP and HR and RBI. Pujols, Fielder, and AGon should never be mentioned in Napoli comparisons, not ever.

    If a pitcher makes 15 starts a year and goes 7-0 each year you don't start comparing his winning percentage to guys who start 30 games a year. A yes pitcher Y has a favorable winning percentage to Seaver, Ryan, Kofax... etc...... no you don't do that.

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    joe 99% of anything I said about Napoli stemmed from Drewski trumping his high OPS... to which I simply countered that his OPS probably would never be that high had the guy played regularly in 145+ games a year. Come on now and look at his stats... he has hundreds upon hundreds fewer bats then all the other OPS leaders Drewski named. 

    Joey Votto was probably the only player listed that comes close to Napoli in terms of AB's and GP and HR and RBI. Pujols, Fielder, and AGon should never be mentioned in Napoli comparisons, not ever.

    If a pitcher makes 15 starts a year and goes 7-0 each year you don't start comparing his winning percentage to guys who start 30 games a year. A yes pitcher Y has a favorable winning percentage to Seaver, Ryan, Kofax... etc...... no you don't do that.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    You make some solid pts, Burr.   Keep in mind: when Adrian Gonzalez signed for 22M/yr, the sox had him under control for one year, and therefore had some leverage.  He was also coming off a down year.   It can be assumed that if he was a FA, he could have gotten more.  Prince Fielder is a DH and got about 25M per.  VMART makes 15M/yr FYI and is 34.

    I think conventional wisdom believes that Greinke's contract will be somewhere between CC's and Cain's.  Look at Hammy and all the question marks.  He almost relapsed last year, he is on the wrong side of 30 and has back issues EVERY year.  He will get 25M / yr.  So if its 25M/yr for a player who cant stay health and has alcoholism issues, what is the annual value of an elite player , under 30, with no question marks? 30M+?

    We saw the Sox pay 5M for a player who will only play in 25% of the games, cant field, and isnt elite offensively.

    IMO, the TV reneue is changing the market.  I think that salaries have gone very north , very fast.  I actually like softlaw as a poster, however, I think that he is living in yesterdays market.  That's no disrespect to him, because I mean literally yesterday, that is how fast this market has changed. 

    The main difference between Softlaws beliefs and mine is that he thinks that 2013 is a big labor embarassment.  If Softlaw is correct, then I agree that we should avoid bidding wars for guys like Napoli.  However, I believe that 2013 (and on) is a big labor embarassment.  I dont think 2013 is a one year trend.  I think this ballooning of salaries is going to continue.  As mentioned, Hammy's contract will push the "first rate contract" even more north than 25M+ it sits at right now. 

    The reason that I dont hate Napoli for four years is because I think that in four years 12M/yr will get you a mediocre player at best and therefore really isnt that much of a committment.  Even in 2012 ,  I would call 12M/yr an average contract.  Hunter is much older than Napoli, has an OPS that is far inferior, and just signed for 16M/yr. 

    I think you are a good poster and make some pts.  I actually agree with your pts, and that is why I am unwilling to go too far north of 4/50.  I think what we disagree on is what 4/50 will buy you.  I would submit its an average player at best.  While you are correct in that comparing Napoli to Pujols/Prince is a reach, consider that Pujols /Prince are signed to first rate contracts, and the contract we are talking about for Napoli is a fourth rate contract.

     

    Its bothersome to me a well; however, the two choices are keep up with the market or never sign an impact free agent again.  I think that a big market team like the sox should use all avenues available to field the best team possible.

    In today's market , 4 yrs / 50 for Napoli is good value. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    Yes but it is Naps "value" we don't need. Just because someone might pay Napoli that does not mean we should. Great post otherwise.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: napoli...

     

    The reason that I dont hate Napoli for four years is because I think that in four years 12M/yr will get you a mediocre player at best and therefore really isnt that much of a committment.  Even in 2012 ,  I would call 12M/yr an average contract.  Hunter is much older than Napoli, has an OPS that is far inferior, and just signed for 16M/yr. 

     

    If MN could play RF then he would be worth a lot more.

    TH  RF  UZR/150:   '10 - '12:     10.3    -0.7      13.0  

    MN 1B  UZR/150:   '10  - '12:     4.3     -9.4     -20.8 

     

     

     



     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes but it is Naps "value" we don't need.

    [/QUOTE]

    Forget about the word value for a moment...we need more good hitters.  Napoli would make us a better hitting team. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    I understand but what is the difference between 80 wins and 84 wins? We dont need him in the way.

     

    If a year ago you said "Napoli" and over Salty I would say okay; but only because we already had a good team.

     

    The dude cannot even catch... where are the CERA people on this? Napoli sucks

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I understand but what is the difference between 80 wins and 84 wins? We dont need him in the way.

     

    If a year ago you said "Napoli" and over Salty I would say okay; but only because we already had a good team.

     

    The dude cannot even catch... where are the CERA people on this? Napoli sucks

    [/QUOTE]


    Don't want him to catch much.  First base.  And he's not in the way of anybody at first base.  We ain't got any of them in the system.

    Look, if they don't sign Napoli I could live with LaRoche.  Or Morse maybe.  But if they don't acquire one of these better calibre guys they're just asking us to sit through another season of lousy, boring baseball.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: napoli...

    LaRoche is a good defender to isn't he? Why did we not keep him again? lol. He was here already.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    LaRoche is a good defender to isn't he? Why did we not keep him again? lol. He was here already.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, he got the cup a coffee treatment from Theo...one of Theo's stranger little moves.  Our new backup catcher David Ross also had a cup a coffee with us.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: napoli...

     I think that [softy] is living in yesterdays market.  That's no disrespect to him, because I mean literally yesterday, that is how fast this market has changed. 

    ...but yesterday, softy was in last year's market, and last year, he was in last decades market, and the year before last, he was in...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You just named 3 catchers who all hit 300+ homers. Mauer won't sniff 200 homers.... please dont make me do more research just to show the obvious

    So now the only consideration for HOF is HRs, and not average?  So how did Boggs and Carew get in?

    And FWIW, you've come full circle in your illogic.

    If HRs are all that matter for HOF voting, then I presume that makes Hapoli even more valuable.  Napoli has probably 50% more HRs per PA than either Carter or Fisk.  I can therefore presume that, if Napoli plays as long as Fisk and Carter, then you'd consider him HOF material, based solely on HRs.

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Not my logic. It is the HOF voters logic. Their is nothing legendary whatsoever about Mauer.

    ..... if he had 3,000 hits or 300 homers .... he will need one or the other. Oh and his batting average must remain above .300. A World Series Ring? He needs to have two of these four things to get in.

    [/QUOTE]

    There are 13 MLB catchers in the Hall of Fame.

     

    0 have 3,000 hits.  In fact, none are even close.  Fisk is the leader with 2,356 hits.

     

    Only 4 have 300 homers - Bench, Fisk, Berra and Carter.

     

    Only 4 have a BA higher than .300 - Cochrane, Dickey, Lombardi, Ewing.

     

    Only four catchers have 2 or more WS rings - Berra, Bench, Dickey and Cochrane.

     

    So how did Gabby Hartnett, Roy Campanella, Ray Schalk, Roger Bresnahan and Rick Ferrell get in?  

     

    Mauer is definite HOF material. Certainly much moreso than first balloter Kirby Puckett...

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: napoli...

    Too much logic for some to understand, and besides, who cares about tainted awards and HOFs?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: napoli...

    I think Mauer will certainly be considered for the HOF...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: napoli...

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I understand but what is the difference between 80 wins and 84 wins? We dont need him in the way.

     

    If a year ago you said "Napoli" and over Salty I would say okay; but only because we already had a good team.

     

    The dude cannot even catch... where are the CERA people on this? Napoli sucks

    [/QUOTE]


    We do have a good team.  We are better than 2/5 of the AL playoff teams (Oak and Balt).

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: napoli...

    As of now, we do not have a good team. Oakland & Balt are better than us, as are many other teams.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: napoli...

    It's hard to believe Napoli might be option #1 for us. I feel like we are back in the twilight zone years of the Redsox during the 1980s etc... where we have little hope of really winning. We hear rumors of Cherington shopping Lester and Buchholz?

    Someone pinch me fast. This must be a sign of dementia.

    Or it could just be a realization that this year's FA market stinks and that there is little hope of the Redsox being able to turn this team around quickly. For me, our best shot was Kuroda to have a chance to win next year. But that boat has now sailed so what next? It looks to be maybe a Napoli / Sanchez type move or Laroche/Sanchez possibly. Unless we are in complete revamp mode and really shopping Lester, Ellbury, Buchholz.

    What a haul those guys could command in terms of prospects. I think we should certainly explore it. Personally, I'd do the Will Myers / Lester deal straight up. It's probably a losing call for us but given the situation we are in I'd roll the dice in the hope that Myers does become a low cost, premium stud in our OF for the next 6 years. I like the retool option for premium prospects and Myers is clearly a stud.

    Maybe the Toronto situation and Baltimore's emergence etc...has changed the LIKELIHOOD of winning next year. Henry has a pretty good grasp of statistics right. The entire staff does. Maybe they have looked at the competitive landscape and determined that it's time to do a 2-3 year retool? One could make a strong case for that scenario. They have a good base of prospects to begin with. Adding another 4-5 top guys would give them almost an entire team of potential all stars on the farm.

    If they don't do some major signings this winter ( Hamilton, Sanchez...etc. ) will this be the year we pull a Marlin's winter?.

     

     

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