New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    From Monday night's posting by Peter Abraham: 

    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/why_using_danie.html

    The Red Sox are warming to the idea of turning accomplished set-up man Daniel Bard into a starting pitcher, a plan that gained traction when the righthander told manager Bobby Valentine today that would be his preference.

    OK, campers.  Here we go again.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    no way... not even if we overpaid for a closer and set-up man to replace him and Paps.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    For the record, I voted 4.) 

    I am open to being convinced otherwise.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Thanks, moon.

    We may have a convergence of bad motives here.

    Bad motive #1 - Sox don't want to go out and get another starter, IMO.  Bard in #4 slot and Wakefield in #5 slot solves the issue of big bucks and FA auctions.

    Bad motive #2 - Bard seeks redemption of his career goals. 

    And somewhere, on a spreadsheet in the basement of Fenway, someone has worked it out so that the set-up guy and closer can be gotten, a RF secured, and Papi can have his $10 miml per year, and we can stay under the luxury tax.

    I don't think so.

    I am no math genius for sure, but some of this is not adding up.  This Bard thing if true shows some very flawed thinking in the FO, then, IMO.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    It's cheaper to assemble a bullpen than to add two quality starting pitchers, especially with the glut of quality relief pitchers available this year. If Aceves and Bard can start, the Red Sox can sign someone like Francisco Rodriguez to close, and three of Matt Capps, Brad Lidge, Mike Gonzalez, Juan Cruz, Octavio Dotel, LaTroy Hawkins, Takashi Saito, George Sherrill, Kerry Wood, Joel Zumaya, etc. to supplement Matt Albers, Franklin Morales, Bobby Jenks and Dan Wheeler (if he accepts arbitration). Junichi Tazawa, Alex Wilson, and board favorite Tim Wakefield could be around to back up Aceves and Bard if they falter as starters. That's a significantly more affordable and flexible configuration than adding a pair of mediocre starting pitchers. Bard and Aceves have more upside as starters than the No. 4-5 guys the team has publicly considered to date.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    I think you should start him and then Bard can go the way of Joba - ineffective year, messed up mind and finally TJ surgery.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    I say be more positive--if Bard wants to be a starter let him be a starter!

    The Sox have Jenks and Aceves already to fight it out to close, if they really want to go cheap.

    If Rollins signs some place other than Philly trade Scutaro there for Blanton. With Bard and Blanton you have your rotation. Heresey--sign Wake for $1 M as a swing man.

    If you can't trade Ells for Hanley even up--insert Iggy at SS.

    Pen: Jenks, Aceves, Morales, Hill (when ready), Albers, Atch, Doubrount and a signee.

    If you don't get Hanley pray that Papi chooses not to accept Arb and walks to Toron, or Balt, or TB. Then we sign Beltran for RF. Come home Ben and hire your coaching staff.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Problem for Bard, he will not go on a high pitch count in his first ten games.  Also it is possible that he may be shut down during the month of August or September to concieve his arm for the next following season.  So if that is the case, we also could see Beckett/Bucholtz to skip start due to minor injuries, then Bard unable to complete the season, etc.  We will see another September colapse!!

    Plus if Bard moves to rotation, it will cost Boston more money to fix the whole pitching staffs.  Better off to tell Bard that he stay as a closer!!


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    If Bard can make the transition to a middle tier low 4 caliber starter, yes. Only the staff insiders can answer that. Both Bard and Aceves have way more value if they are capable of middle tier starter performance. Aceves almost surely has that capability, Bard is a maybe that should be examined. Easy to sign 2 or 3 adequate pen arms to one year deals. Bard has not excelled in high stress closer circumstances. He would be more than adequate as a closer, but if ne can start he has way more vaue and fit on this team.

    The Red Sox collapse and early season fiasco resulted from virtual zero beyond Beckett and Lester. Papelbon and Bard were overused, which resulted in their, both, up and down fatigue and too many looks for opponents.

    The market has zero in starting pitcher value, outside of some back bencher long odds veteran one year contract dice rolling. Buehrle is bar far the best quality of an impotent AL starting pitching FA labor pool, but supply and demand makes his age and mileage an aircraft carrier red flag. Every team now pipe dreams about being contenders, so only the supressed injury rejects will be attempted to be passed onto trade block. No team will be trading AL MLB quality ready and fit starting pitching over the winter.

    Markets dictate what a team construction options are. The Red Sox will have to follow the blueprint of the 2009 Yankee dominant offense, and hope that current starting pitching payroll decides to come to work fit and prepared to finish a full season. Despite Beckett's overall season numbers in 2011, he once again was an embarrassment by season end. Lester also seems to have adopted the same work ethic, after being the best Red Sox starter for years. 

    The Red Sox were a RH OF bat short of possessing the wire to wire consistent offensive machine that it took to reach the post season with 2 fat cat starters falling flat on their fat faces at year end, followed by virtual zero in the form of a portly circus sideshow and death and taxes certainty on the disabled list. Pedro's indictment of Beckett, Lester via association, was on the money and welcome. Only guys who finish strong get a pass on body fat index.

    Cherington needs to:

    1. Find a way to get his quarter of a billion dollar pitching rotation to show up fit and focused, and stop defrauding the paying customer. He needs to approach that, not from the adding another FA big market contract seeking freeloader, but by taking care of the matters internally by what Mike McCarthy calls every man accountability to every other man on the team. In the Red Sox case, that other man would be Pedroia and a few others. 

    Yes, Cherry, fix what is under the quarter of a billion dollar starter staff hood, don't pay another 80 million for CJ Wilson to depreciate to a Ford Pinto after you pay sticker and drive it off the lot. Convert Aceves and Bard, if possible, to members of the rotation. Get off the pitch counts, pay attention to mechanics of delivery, and build endurance and increase staff average IP per start. Budget a few million for back bencher starting slots from veteran dumpster pool (not Wastefield), and fill out the starter depth from the farm. Have a heart to heart talk with Beckett and Lester and Buch, and let them know that accountability is now the season expectation from start to finish. They are paid to respond to the responsiblity of being as good or better producers than their peers, on a wire to wire basis.

    2. Stop the Inepstein modus of buying and retaining career highs. Trade some career high profiles looking for massive contracts and trade for young talent that is a better short and long term fit. 

    3. End the veteran FA ceremonial welfare contracts. Build the 25 man MLB contract roster with value and fit, not record chasers in wheelchairs. 

    Shake up the roster by willingness to make moves that media and fan convention will denounce. Be a best interest of the team executive, and understand that your manager is impotent unless you move the slackards, malcontents and contract year play the game safe performers.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Rotation:

    Beckett
    Lester
    Buch
    Aceves
    Bard or 1 to 2M vetaran reject

    Depth is 1 or 2 other veteran rejects plus farm, Doubrant, Tazawa, Wilson

    Pen:

    Sign one upper tier pen arm to 2 year deal 5-6M  
    Jenks
    Sign one middle tier pen arm to 1 year deal budget 2M for 2 outside pen
    Morales
    Dumpster Vet
    Dumpster Vet
    Farm shuttle 

        
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Pen:

    Sign one upper tier pen arm to 2 year deal 5-6M  
    Jenks
    Sign one middle tier pen arm to 1 year deal budget 2M for 2 outside pen
    Morales
    Dumpster Vet
    Dumpster Vet
    Farm shuttle 

    There are no "upper tier" pen arms going for 2 yrs. $5-6M. You need to start getting realistic about what good pitching costs on the market. Yes, we could get lucky on a gamble, but moving Bard and Aceves to the rotation would mean we have to get lucky 3-4 times with our pen choices.... not likely.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Putz, 2011, in a smaller supply. Wrong.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    It's all about the Benjaman'$
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    I think Bard is letting his ego get the better of him.

    Red Sox are wiling to go along because they are out of options - they don't like what they see in the FA auctions and/or don't have the $$ to pursue them.  Plus, there is always the possibility that they will acquire another John Lackey.

    There is a logic (if you can call it that) on the part of the Red Sox FO that says if Bard washes out as a starter - again - he can always go back to the pen. But not if he blows out his arm by the All-Star break and needs to go on the DL or worse sign up for TJ surgery.

    Then we are back to Jump Street - looking for a starter - again.

    There are no easy solutions and few, if any, attractive in-house options for the pitching staff.  But Bard going back to being a starter, when he can be a dependable setup or closer, is just magical thinking.

    Here endeth the lesson.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    I would like to see both Aceves and Bard get the opportunity to start. It will be easier and cheaper to re-build the pen than to acquire two new starters.  What is there to lose?  If it doesn't work out , they can return to the pen. A strong five man rotation is the most important component of a championship team. It is something that has been lacking recently.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    In Response to Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?:
    [QUOTE]I would like to see both Aceves and Bard get the opportunity to start. It will be easier and cheaper to re-build the pen than to acquire two new starters.  What is there to lose?  If it doesn't work out , they can return to the pen. A strong five man rotation is the most important component of a championship team. It is something that has been lacking recently.
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    I am not totally against the idea.  But, while Aceves is, to some degree, a proven starter, Bard is a total gamble.  So, yes, if it works out, the sox solve the starter problem from within, for cheap.  Wonderful.  But, you ask what there is to lose.  Well, if it doesn;t work out and Bard goes back to the pen, we are right back to September 2011 without even 5 guys to fill out the rotation.  I would personally rather not take a shot in the dark (Bard as starter) when it comes to shoring up the rotation.  Aceves, I am all for giving a shot to start though.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    He has enough pitches to be a starter. 

    Is the rule of thumb that if a guy can be a starter you make him a starter? 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    In Response to Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?:
    [QUOTE]He has enough pitches to be a starter.  Is the rule of thumb that if a guy can be a starter you make him a starter? 
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Sort of.  I'd say you lean toward making him a starter.  But it depends on the team's circumstances.  Papelbon showed some potential as a starter in '05, but the team desperately needed a closer.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Meh.  If they want to try him out as a starter I'm not totally against it.  I don't have a lot of confidence he'll be as good there as he is in the pen, but I don't see it as a disaster.  I think with the offense they should have (assuming Papi is back), they can get a lot of mileage out of one mid-tier FA pitcher (either pen or back of rotation ... whatever is the best buy) + some combination of:
    Aceves
    Bard
    Morales
    Tazawa
    Doubront
    Weiland
    [insert other names like Miller and other dumpster dives]
    ... any/all of which can be tested in the pen and/or back of rotation.  Yeah, it's not sexy.  But when it comes to the BP and back of rotation, I think there's a lot of merit to having a lot of cheap options since there are very few pitchers for these slots in whom you can have a lot of confidence in how they will perform in any given season.  Some of them will suck so bad you hope they never set foot in Fenway again ... then again, this happens with highly paid 'stars' too.  Plus someone will likely be this year's diamond in the rough.  Basically, I just don't see much merit to spending a lot on these spots, either in $$$ or prospects, when it's such a crapshoot.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Not only is it cheaper to rebuild the pen, but this year there is a glut of relievers and a dearth of starters (which will likely be the case every year, come to think of it).

    Chad Finn argued that if you are going to pay 10 million for Madson, then you might as well throw 12 million at Buehrle and get 200 innings instead of 65.  But Buehrle is looking like his is going to go for more like John Lackey money.  And Madson isn't the only guy out there.  You could get three guys (and at least 200 innings of relief) for what Buehrle is going to cost (Frank Francisco, Cordero and Brad Lidge for instance).  Then the gamble is that between Bard and Aceves you end up with one being as good or better than Buehrle is/was/will be.  And the potential is that you end up with two guys who are better than Buehrle. 

    That upside makes the Bard and Aceves to starting rotation experiment worth it to me.

    Jenks
    Morales
    Lidge
    Cordero
    Francisco
    Atchison/Albers/Bowden/Wake and Hill when he gets back. 

    Not too shabby a list.  Also, with Lowrie, Reddick, Ranaudo and Iglesias all viable trade bait, a top notch reliever could be had by trade if you aren't comfortable with that, or no one steps in to be a real good closer by the July deadline.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    The Yanks took two BP aces, Joba and Hughes, tried to turn them into starters and have lost both of them - neither is now a good starter or good BP.  Sox don't need to take a good BP and dismantle it totally to try two guys as starters...although Aceves may be a good fit as a SP.  Sox need to bring in a true starter.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    Hughes was not ever supposed to be a bullpen ace.  It is just that the best year he has had was in the bullpen while he recovered from an arm injury.  He may well have a good career ahead of him, but if he ends up on the cutting room floor (so to speak) it is because of the arm injury he suffered as a starter BEFORE becoming a reliever.

    And while I cannot argue with the fact that bouncing Joba around from role to role probably contributed to his arm problems, it is certainly not indicative of all relievers turned into starters.  You cite Joba, and Texas can cite Wilson, and Ogando, and Feliz will be next.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    In response to "Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?": [QUOTE]Thanks, moon. We may have a convergence of bad motives here. Bad motive #1 - Sox don't want to go out and get another starter, IMO.  Bard in #4 slot and Wakefield in #5 slot solves the issue of big bucks and FA auctions. Bad motive #2 - Bard seeks redemption of his career goals.  And somewhere, on a spreadsheet in the basement of Fenway, someone has worked it out so that the set-up guy and closer can be gotten, a RF secured, and Papi can have his $10 miml per year, and we can stay under the luxury tax. I don't think so. I am no math genius for sure, but some of this is not adding up.  This Bard thing if true shows some very flawed thinking in the FO, then, IMO. Posted by summerof67[/QUOTE] My fear 1.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?

    In response to "Re: New Poll: Bard as Starter. What think?": [QUOTE]I think you should start him and then Bard can go the way of Joba - ineffective year, messed up mind and finally TJ surgery. Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE] My fear 2.
     
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