NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In case you haven't noticed Ortiz has been under suspicion also, every bit as much as Bautista. It's a very similar scenario isn't it. Projected to not be a starter even and then BAM, superman.

    Regarding Ellsbury, I for one predicted he would be a 20 HR hitter last year and projected him for a "monster" year in 2011. He went to the Arizona Performance Institute last year when rehabbing and clearly added more strength. Both Youk and Pedroia also went there and came back transformed. For him to have more pop this year was predictable. Also, he is not from the DR and is not hitting 54 HR for God's sake, or putting up an OBP of .449.

    Jose is astonishing. Ellsbury is as I projected him. Look it up. Comparable career to Johnny Damon during his prime years. Discussed him as probably having better years in his prime than Lou Brock. Said he wouldn't have Rickey Henderson's longevity but may put up comparable numbers during his prime.

    Ellsbury was a consistent 300 hitter in his early 20's. Bautista was putting up numbers which indicated fringe major league guy. 

    Finally, do a search for "Jacoby Ellsbury and Steroids" and compare that to "Jose Bautista and Steroids". Jacoby has like 3 listings, none of which imply PED use. It's pages and pages of listings for Jose, most of which discuss the controversy and suspicion swirling around him.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    I have never, ever accused Jose Bautista of PED use. I just reported that yes he is under suspicion, and noted the reasons,and it is clear that he has been under suspicion right. Did I create that suspicion yesterday? No. It's been there since last year.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Most people do not imply a 28 homer guy to be on steroids, its the minute they hit 45+ that they automatically get labeled. You know this to be true.

    You could do steroids all year long and so long as you go from 9 homers to 28 nobody in the world will care to notice.

    You go from 15 homers in a 115 game season to 50 homers in 160 games and your already in deep water, cheating or not. Unfair.

    Boom I won't post anymore on it, just wanted to get my take in. I do believe if Bautista was playing for us you would have found a different example to use.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Most people do not imply a 28 homer guy to be on steroids, its the minute they hit 45+ that they automatically get labeled. You know that is true. You could do steroids all year long and so long as you go from 9 homers to 28 nobody in the world will care to notice. You go from 15 homers in a 115 game season to 50 homers in 160 games and your already in deep water, cheating or not. Unfair.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    On the money.

     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    I've cited Ortiz several times to the consternation of many. He fits the profile almost as much as Bautista. Did any of us consider Manny as a PED user? All those years he spent his winters in Brazil, of all places. He might have been doing them since his days with Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez for all we know. I truly hate PED use. It destroys the integrity of the game. I hope they do HGH testing next year.

    I don't like to bring up PED use as it is always an issue. I only brought it up in passing regarding the all star vote, because it probably is an issue in the minds of sports writers IMO. Maybe a reason he only got 1 first place vote last year after hitting 54 HR.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]I've cited Ortiz several times to the consternation of many. He fits the profile almost as much as Bautista. Did any of us consider Manny as a PED user? All those years he spent his winters in Brazil, of all places. He might have been doing them since his days with Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez for all we know. I truly hate PED use. It destroys the integrity of the game. I hope they do HGH testing next year. I don't like to bring up PED use as it is always an issue. I only brought it up in passing regarding the all star vote, because it probably is an issue in the minds of sports writers IMO. Maybe a reason he only got 1 first place vote last year after hitting 54 HR.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    Or maybe the writers waited to see if Bautista's year was not a fluke.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In case you haven't noticed Ortiz has been under suspicion also, every bit as much as Bautista. It's a very similar scenario isn't it. Projected to not be a starter even and then BAM, superman. Regarding Ellsbury, I for one predicted he would be a 20 HR hitter last year and projected him for a "monster" year in 2011. He went to the Arizona Performance Institute last year when rehabbing and clearly added more strength. Both Youk and Pedroia also went there and came back transformed. For him to have more pop this year was predictable. Also, he is not from the DR and is not hitting 54 HR for God's sake, or putting up an OBP of .449. Jose is astonishing. Ellsbury is as I projected him. Look it up. Comparable career to Johnny Damon during his prime years. Discussed him as probably having better years in his prime than Lou Brock. Said he wouldn't have Rickey Henderson's longevity but may put up comparable numbers during his prime. Ellsbury was a consistent 300 hitter in his early 20's. Bautista was putting up numbers which indicated fringe major league guy.  Finally, do a search for "Jacoby Ellsbury and Steroids" and compare that to "Jose Bautista and Steroids". Jacoby has like 3 listings, none of which imply PED use. It's pages and pages of listings for Jose, most of which discuss the controversy and suspicion swirling around him.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    I'm not questioning the sources. Just the fact that they are groundless in that they offer no proof. Once the press draws conclusions from circumstantial evidence, it puts the accused on the hot seat. No matter how ya slice it, that's not responsible journalism. 

    I keep thinking about actor David Janssen's plight in THE FUGITIVE. That was loosely based on a true case. Slanderous statements, regardless of the source, are damaging. Which is why the victum's have legal recourse.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]I've cited Ortiz several times to the consternation of many. He fits the profile almost as much as Bautista. Did any of us consider Manny as a PED user? All those years he spent his winters in Brazil, of all places. He might have been doing them since his days with Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez for all we know. I truly hate PED use. It destroys the integrity of the game. I hope they do HGH testing next year. I don't like to bring up PED use as it is always an issue. I only brought it up in passing regarding the all star vote, because it probablyis an issue in the minds of sports writers IMO. Maybe a reason he only got 1 first place vote last year after hitting 54 HR.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Maybe. If so, then it's  further reason why it's dangerous for writers to be suspicious w/o proof.
    Should he have been entitled to more votes?

    Or maybe the fact he hit .260 and his team was not in contention played into it.
    Which makes the 2011 voting all the more interesting.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]I've cited Ortiz several times to the consternation of many. He fits the profile almost as much as Bautista. Did any of us consider Manny as a PED user? All those years he spent his winters in Brazil, of all places. He might have been doing them since his days with Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez for all we know. I truly hate PED use. It destroys the integrity of the game. I hope they do HGH testing next year. I don't like to bring up PED use as it is always an issue. I only brought it up in passing regarding the all star vote, because it probably is an issue in the minds of sports writers IMO. Maybe a reason he only got 1 first place vote last year after hitting 54 HR.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    On Integrity of the Game we share the same platform, I wish enhancements never existed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    When players have a bust out year, pitchers often continue challenging him until he does it over time. Then they adjust. For example, Papi hit 31 dingers in 2003. He walked 58 times (509 PA's).

    In 2004, he hit 41 dingers, and walked 75 times 669 PA's.
    In 2005, he hit 47 homers and for the first time in his career, he walked over 100 times. (Actually 102 in 702 PA's). Keep in mind, he had Manny behind or in front of him...and a good line-up protecting him. His ratio of BB/PA in MN was 1 BB per 9.1 PA's. It was 1/8.77 in 2003. 1/8.92 in 2004. 1/7 in 2005.

    I'd say pitchers stopped challenging him and he showed better plate discipline.
    When he hit 54 dingers in 2006, he walked 1/5.76 PA!

    With Bautista, before coming to Toronto, he walked a career high 68 times in 614PA's in 2007 (1 per 9 PA's). In his first full year in Toronto, he walked 56 times in 404 PA's. (1 per 7.2 PA).He only hit 13 dingers. So, his BB/PA ratio rose, but not because he was a power threat yet. It was because he was improving plate discipline.

    In his bust out year, he walked 100 times in 683 PA's Once every 6.83 PS).
    By ratio, that's not much of a jump.  His numbers this year, 127 BB in 623 PA's
    (1 per 4.91 PA!) tell me they are pitching around him, and he's being selective.

    It's not like he suddenly graduated the university of balls & strikes in one season. His first full season in the majors, his ratio was 1 BB every 10 at bats.
    He has learned how to be a good hitter. Which explains why his BA went from .241 in 3 years in Pittsburgh, to .260 last year, to .304 this year.
    Steroid use is usually seen in the power variance, but not so much in avg.

    He claims he made mechanical adjustments. By reducing his strike zone to more strikes, he was able to hit more pitches with authority...pitches he can now size-up.

    Papi said similar about why he's able to hit lefties this year. He's laying off pitches that made him look bad last year, (he referred to the outside ones). Last year, he was susceptible to the inside heat. Couldn't get around on it. It appeared like he was aging out. But the reality was, he was being set up inside by pitchers who had him looking outside.

    Here's the difference:
    2010 vs. lefties:  .222 BA  .599  OPS  13 BB 200 PA's
    2011 vs. Lefties: .331 BA  1.003 OPS  26 BB 193 PA's. 

    Much better plate coverage. The difference in OPS is amazing.
    Keep in mind, both players said they made mechanical adjustments.
    They could have said "Hell, I'm not doing a damn thing different. I can't explain..."

    My point is that the indicators are there for both players in regards to improvement in plate coverage. Redick is another example of the same, and he will eventually hit for more power as a result. I'm willing to bet the same can and will be said for Jake in that better plate discipline has increased his power, as he will continue to be less susceptible to the inside pitches that used to eat him up. The more he goes to the opposite field, the more apparent it'll become.

    He is already getting less FB's to hit this year and less strikes in the zone compared to any other year. And his BB totals will likely follow suit over the coming years, despite his speed, as pitchers will become more weary of his power.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    I'd say most hitters are at their best 29 to 33 years old... that is their prime.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : I'm not questioning the sources. Just the fact that they are groundless in that they offer no proof. Once the press draws conclusions from circumstantial evidence, it puts the accused on the hot seat. No matter how ya slice it, that's not responsible journalism.  I keep thinking about actor David Janssen's plight in THE FUGITIVE. That was loosely based on a true case. Slanderous statements, regardless of the source, are damaging. Which is why the victum's have legal recourse.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I don't think a single press report drew the conclusion that Bautista was probably even on PEDS. As with me, they were commenting on the highly suspicious aspects of his game and back ground. Most were saying that the controvery and suspicion were there, and that there were some indicators but most also presented the other side of the situation. Maybe he really did improve that much without cheating. It's possible. It's possible he is a cheater also. We do not know. My comments were that he is under suspicion and all those Google listing pretty much indicate that right?

    It is of course very unfortunate that anyone who has outlier level improvements in their game are suspect. Especially the zero to hero types. What if a player actually does work extremely hard and get in great shape ( like Yaz did in 67 ) and they end up having a tremendous year. Such years seem to be a real phenomena but being Superman for 5-10 years seems unusual in baseball history when it suddenly happens at 28 years old and then eventually completely goes away on a sudden basis, and that same guy ends up hitting .230 and suddenly can't get around on a 92 MPH fastball.

    The data regarding the DR is also compelling as well as indicators of the sudden 50 HR pop and pitchers just wanting nothing to do with them so they walk that player. It seems that if players in Bautista's situation were pitched to they would hit 70-80 HR. When that phenomena happens they are suddenly a Manny, an Ortiz, an Arod, a Bautista, a Bonds, a Sosa, a Pujols...etc. The guy no one can get out. The guy who is off the charts good.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Matt Kemp nealry has the Triple Crown in his lap.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    You could look at Dwight Evans career, his numbers after 1980 dwarfed his entire career averages.  1981 was a strike year and Dewey led the league in homers, and he was already 30. His ribbies, doubles and all his numbers all went up, still knowcking in 100 runs at 37 years of age.

    I am not great at math but it looks like it may have been a 70% increase in production after turning 30 and already ahving played 8 full seasons in the league.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Real journalist present both sides of every story but they also do not shy away from discussing the controversial. I think Bautista's situation has been handled quite well. No real journalist has accused him. He has been given the benefit of the doubt, even when the circumstantial indicators are substantial. Would it surprise any of them if he ended up a cheater? Probably not. If it turns out that he never was a cheater or never gets caught if he is, then baseball writers will consider him strongly in their voting. My whole point though was that the issue is in peoples minds. Reporters have a journalistic responsibility to report on the facts when such instances happen. They have treated him fairly in my opinion.


     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : Your remark, "I could have phrased it better," is the  understatement of the month on this board. ... Don't blame others if your sloppy language and overstatement invite a calling out. ...
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    His English class is still concentrating on spelling.  It will be two more years before they start teaching him composition.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Rickey Henderson's best year ever for RBI = 74. Ellsbury now has 98 with quite a few games left. Has any leadoff batter ever had more than 100 RBI? Rickey Henderson never had more than 64 XBH in a year. Ellsbury now has 78 folks, with games left to play. He is a PLUS 15.6 UZR/150 and is now a 8.7 WAR, with a valuation of $39.2 MIL for his year SO FAR. He should edge out Bautista for the MVP vote if it were held today. He's been that good ladies and gentlemen. Ellsbury is having one of the greatest year's ever for a leadoff batter.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    How can you have "one of the greatest years ever for a leadoff batter" when you are third in the league in runs scored (behind by twenty), and not even in the top ten for OBP?

    These are the two most important stats for a leadoff batter.


    I should know.  I am the best leadoff batter ever (1.000 OBP).
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    good points.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Name one guy in the modern era who has put up better overall numbers as a lead off guy. I'll grant some Rickey Henderson years with the very high OBP and number of steals and such but Ellsbury has been in the ball park on those even. He probably ends with over 100 RBI. and 80 XBH. He might have more XBH than Pedroia had in his mvp season, which was his major calling card that year.

    I have been a fan of Granderson for years. He's a class act and up until 2-3 weeks ago I would have voted for him as MVP but I think Ellsbury has edged him now.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Real journalist present both sides of every story but they also do not shy away from discussing the controversial. I think Bautista's situation has been handled quite well. No real journalist has accused him. He has been given the benefit of the doubt, even when the circumstantial indicators are substantial. Would it surprise any of them if he ended up a cheater? Probably not. If it turns out that he never was a cheater or never gets caught if he is, then baseball writers will consider him strongly in their voting. My whole point though was that the issue is in peoples minds. Reporters have a journalistic responsibility to report on the facts when such instances happen. They have treated him fairly in my opinion.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    If it "turns out" that Baustista didn't cheat, then ( and only then? ) will writers consider him strongly in their voting. For goodness sake, Boom do you realize what you are saying here? How long is "turns out"? By whose measure?
    By whose authority is the issue settled? You mean that Bautista must wait for all of this to happen. Then writers will consider him "strongly," presumably, according to you, if an absence of PED's from his record can be established. How do you know this? Maybe some writers will not even rank this issue that high in their considerations.  That sounds like the French system to me. "Unless you can prove that you're innocent, you will remain under suspicion."
    I don't know whether my summary is what you meant to say, but it's what your language says or strongly implies. 

     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    He's a class act and up until 2-3 weeks ago I would have voted for him as MVP but I think Ellsbury has edged him now.--soxpatscelts
    --------------------------------
    What am I missing, SPC? I don't place much stock in the MVP award but why, when presented with the seasons of these two players, would someone picks Ells?
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    David Ortiz and Adrian Gonzalez lead the Red Sox in OPS and SLG and OBP. Ortiz leads the Red Sox in HR. Gonzalez leads the team in RBI's and BA.

    Ellsbury is 4th in OBP on the Red Sox. Pedroia is 3rd, and Pedroia has 26 steals and an 80% success rate on SB. Ellsbury has been caught stealing 30% of the time.   

    Granderson is well ahead of Ellsbury in OPS SLG HR and RBI's and runs scored. Granderson also has 24 steals. Granderson OBP is over .370.

    Granderson's team has won the AL East.

      
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : How can you have "one of the greatest years ever for a leadoff batter" when you are third in the league in runs scored (behind by twenty), and not even in the top ten for OBP? These are the two most important stats for a leadoff batter. I should know.  I am the best leadoff batter ever (1.000 OBP).
    Posted by EddieGaedel[/QUOTE]

    Something tells me you were just created for this thread. Hmmm.

    Did you know your grandson was just drafted this year? You must be proud Eddie!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    someone was drafted from your lineage. It may have been great grandson or great grand nephew...etc.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_4411895. Show user_4411895's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : Something tells me you were just created for this thread. Hmmm. Did you know your grandson was just drafted this year? You must be proud Eddie!
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Please respond to the content.  How can someone be the best leadoff hitter ever and not even lead the league in runs scored?  And be out of the top ten in OBP?
     

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