NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : I don't think a single press report drew the conclusion that Bautista was probably even on PEDS. As with me, they were commenting on the highly suspicious aspects of his game and back ground. Most were saying that the controvery and suspicion were there, and that there were some indicators but most also presented the other side of the situation. Maybe he really did improve that much without cheating. It's possible. It's possible he is a cheater also. We do not know. My comments were that he is under suspicion and all those Google listing pretty much indicate that right? It is of course very unfortunate that anyone who has outlier level improvements in their game are suspect.Especially the zero to hero types. What if a player actually does work extremely hard and get in great shape ( like Yaz did in 67 ) and they end up having a tremendous year. Such years seem to be a real phenomena but being Superman for 5-10 years seems unusual in baseball history when it suddenly happens at 28 years old and then eventually completely goes away on a sudden basis, and that same guy ends up hitting .230 and suddenly can't get around on a 92 MPH fastball. The data regarding the DR is also compelling as well as indicators of the sudden 50 HR pop and pitchers just wanting nothing to do with them so they walk that player. It seems that if players in Bautista's situation were pitched to they would hit 70-80 HR. When that phenomena happens they are suddenly a Manny, an Ortiz, an Arod, a Bautista, a Bonds, a Sosa, a Pujols...etc. The guy no one can get out. The guy who is off the charts good.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Pertinent point, which is why I don't like to see anybody spraying gasoline to fanthe fumes. One other thing: If you look at the altered states of body type before/after with players like McGuire/Bonds/Aroid - this aspect is missing with Bautista. The writers should look before they leap, and analyze all facets of Bautista's progression before jumping the gun.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    HGH doesn't transform the body like steroids. Since they are testing for steroids now they are probably less of a factor.

    A lot of us think that the subject should just never come up. Everyone is presumed innocent and we should just ignore indicators. Never discuss them. I don't feel that way. And most sports writers consider it their job to discuss subjects like PED use. They are clearly part of the sport still. If sportswriters and fans didn't explore the subject Bonds would probably still be hitting 50 HR this year. Young players would be more inclined to try them, in order to be able to even compete in the majors. Such discussion is needed. None of us like it but we need to continue to clean up the sport.

    I used to like to watch bike racing. That sport is so doctored up it took the fun out of it completely for me. It could happen to baseball also, and probably has already to a degree.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]HGH doesn't transform the body like steroids. Since they are testing for steroids now they are probably less of a factor. A lot of us think that the subject should just never come up. Everyone is presumed innocent and we should just ignore indicators.Never discuss them. I don't feel that way. And most sports writers consider it their job to discuss subjects like PED use. They are clearly part of the sport still. If sportswriters and fans didn't explore the subject Bonds would probably still be hitting 50 HR this year. Young players would be more inclined to try them, in order to be able to even compete in the majors. Such discussion is needed. None of us like it but we need to continue to clean up the sport. I used to like to watch bike racing. That sport is so doctored up it took the fun out of it completely for me. It could happen to baseball also, and probably has already to a degree.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Indicators should not be ignored. Just as the indicators I pointed out in Bautista's BB/PP ratio shouldn't be ignored.

    It's not the job of sportswriters to make unfounded accusations.
    It was the job of MLB to acknowledge what they turned a blind eye to.
    They are the ones responsible. Selig should be the one going before congress - he and his 23 mil a year salary.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs. They still refuse to allow testing for hgh. MLBPA is a racketeering unit.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]HGH doesn't transform the body like steroids. Since they are testing for steroids now they are probably less of a factor. A lot of us think that the subject should just never come up. Everyone is presumed innocent and we should just ignore indicators. Never discuss them. I don't feel that way. And most sports writers consider it their job to discuss subjects like PED use. They are clearly part of the sport still. If sportswriters and fans didn't explore the subject Bonds would probably still be hitting 50 HR this year. Young players would be more inclined to try them, in order to be able to even compete in the majors. Such discussion is needed. None of us like it but we need to continue to clean up the sport. I used to like to watch bike racing. That sport is so doctored up it took the fun out of it completely for me. It could happen to baseball also, and probably has already to a degree.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    Who are "a lot of us who think that the subject should just never come up"? Even a few of us? No one on this thread has taken that position. The issue is how the subject is discussed once it is brought up and what the implications are for a specific player in this instance.

     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : Who are "a lot of us who think that the subject should just never come up"? Even a few of us? No one on this thread has taken that position. The issue is  how the subject is discussed once it is brought up and what the implications are for a specific player in this instance.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]


    Is this how you would bring it up expitch, basically say "I have said that the case against him is not compelling, which means, as of now, "not guilty ".

    That is some great sports writing if that would be your approach. Sports writers have a different responsibility. Addressing the issue from both sides is their responsibility. There is nothing wrong with addressing the issue. There is nothing wrong with virtually any or the sports reporter articles on this subject IMO. I haven't read a single sports writer accuse him of PED use. I have read a lot of articles discussing the facts regarding this issue. For example, he started hitting HR at a faster pace in late 2009. He has always had pop but mainly didn't connect well. There have been lots of comments supporting his situation. He has been treated quite well IMO.

    I said he was under suspicion and then had to go through 2-3 pages of grief over it. YOU don't want it brought it up.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs. They still refuse to allow testing for hgh. MLBPA is a racketeering unit.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs and ownership is 0% responsible? Who collects the dough for ticket/concessions sales? Who reaps the rewards for the big TV contracts? Get off your Reagan high horse for a minute and look at the facts for once.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Granderson - 2011 UZR-150 = Negative 6.9 Ellsbury - 2011 UZR-150 = PLUS 15.6 Same position, same year. Granderson 2011 hits - 148 Ellsbury 2011 hits - 200 Granderson average - .269 Ellsbury average - .319 And Granderson clearly has more park advantage. LH hitter in the HR capital of baseball for LH hitters ( maybe Philadelphia has passed them recently but Yankee stadium is HR heaven for left handers. Similar OBP. Similar slugging. Similar XBH...etc. Ellsbury should win.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps you missed this post Softy. Let me add these Fangraphs numbers to it:

    2011 WAR value:

    Granderson: 7.3
    Ellsbury: 8.7

    Dollar Value: 

    Granderson: $32.8 mil
    Ellsbury: $39 mil

    OPS:

    Granderson: .943
    Ellsbury OPS: .913 

    Slugging:

    Granderson: .570
    Ellsbury: .539

    Offensively it's largely a wash but they are not even remotely similar defensively according to the metrics. The metrics were real important last year when Ellsbury was criticized but now when they show him to be well above average we never hear about them.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    expitch some times the self-ordained important people on the forum feel they speak for the masses... hilarious of course but very true.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs and ownership is 0% responsible? Who collects the dough for ticket/concessions sales? Who reaps the rewards for the big TV contracts? Get off your Reagan high horse for a minute and look at the facts for once.

    Walmart makes billions off product sales. If you steal from them, you are 100% responsible.

    Jack Daniels makes billions off of poduct sales. If drink too much and destroy your liver, Jack Daniels company is not responsible for your medical care.

    PGA of America makes millions off the Ryder Cup. If you play in it and come to play on Dr. Galea's HGH joint injury cocktail, you are 100% responsible for your drug use.

    Get off your Obama high horse and take responsiblity for coming to work sober.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs and ownership is 0% responsible? Who collects the dough for ticket/concessions sales? Who reaps the rewards for the big TV contracts? Get off your Reagan high horse for a minute and look at the facts for once. Walmart makes billions off product sales. If you steal from them, you are 100% responsible. Jack Daniels makes billions off of poduct sales. If drink too much and destroy your liver, Jack Daniels company is not responsible for your medical care. PGA of America makes millions off the Ryder Cup. If you play in it and come to play on Dr. Galea's HGH joint injury cocktail, you are 100% responsible for your drug use. Get off your Obama high horse and take responsiblity for coming to work sober.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]F#ck you. I come to work sober every day. Do you? If you did you would be the first lawyer I met who did. Do you know what you call 100 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean? An excellent start.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Obama is a lawyer.

    MLBPA members who use PED's for purpose of athletic performance are violating the federal controlled substances act. They are not above this law, and are 100% responsible for violating it. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Obama is a lawyer. MLBPA members who use PED's for purpose of athletic performance are violating the federal controlled substances act. They are not above this law, and are 100% responsible for violating it. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]You may think I love Obama, but while I voted for him I don't. As far as baseball players violating the federal controlled substances act, ownership is at least quietly complicit in the law breaking.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    No, MLBPA refused to allow testing. Only a recent Congressional pressure put in current diluted subtance abuse testing policy. HGH is still not inculded due to MLBPA.

    Owners are not responsible for a working condition that the MLBPA refuses to allow.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : Is this how you would bring it up expitch, basically say " I have said that the case against him is not compelling, which means, as of now, "not guilty  ". That is some great sports writing if that would be your approach. Sports writers have a different responsibility. Addressing the issue from both sides is their responsibility. There is nothing wrong with addressing the issue. There is nothing wrong with virtually any or the sports reporter articles on this subject IMO. I haven't read a single sports writer accuse him of PED use. I have read a lot of articles discussing the facts regarding this issue. For example, he started hitting HR at a faster pace in late 2009. He has always had pop but mainly didn't connect well. There have been lots of comments supporting his situation. He has been treated quite well IMO. I said he was under suspicion and then had to go through 2-3 pages of grief over it. YOU don't want it brought it up.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    You lost it a long way back on this topic, even before your "last post," and have continued to make matters worse for yourself. You habitually misrepresent what people say, repeat yourself ad nauseam, market red herrings, get tangled in your own contorted language, scream in print, and then bleat "You don't want it brought it."  Do you think other readers here are stupid -- or just me -- and haven't been able to follow the course of this thread -- if they have even bothered?  When all else fails, as it does time after time, you whip out your absurd vocabulary of personal denigration: dumb, stupid, no, make that stupidest.  I have said that you don't read well and are a sloppy writer. The evidence for that judgment is clear cut, as opposed to that against Bautista.
    And you know all of my motives, from seeking revenge over a petty disagreement to wanting to stuff the topic of steroids entirely. Sad, really.
    In short, you went off the rails on this subject with your crude and irresponsible original post and have been slipping your wheels in wet turf ever since.
    For the third time, I say take Moon's advice. Ice it.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Expitch, You have completely wasted our time with this BS. Bautista is under suspicion for PED use. Everyone here knows that. No one is accusing him but we all know he is under suspicion. If it bothers you that I alluded to that in regard to the mvp vote, then why don't you waste another 2-3 pages of worthless drivel over it because no one is reading it anymore. We are all sick of it. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]MLBPA is 100% responsible for PEDs and ownership is 0% responsible? Who collects the dough for ticket/concessions sales? Who reaps the rewards for the big TV contracts? Get off your Reagan high horse for a minute and look at the facts for once. Walmart makes billions off product sales. If you steal from them, you are 100% responsible. Jack Daniels makes billions off of poduct sales. If drink too much and destroy your liver, Jack Daniels company is not responsible for your medical care. PGA of America makes millions off the Ryder Cup. If you play in it and come to play on Dr. Galea's HGH joint injury cocktail, you are 100% responsible for your drug use. Get off your Obama high horse and take responsiblity for coming to work sober.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    When businesses like Exxon and Shell make $15 billion a quarter and pay huge amounts of money to buy our government lock, stock and barrel, that is stealing from us. They are the thiefs and they deserve to be made to pay the same tax rates as the rest of us. When a billionaire is paying taxes at a lower rate than a $50,000 per year teacher, there is something very wrong with that picture.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Expitch, You have completely wasted our time with this BS. Bautista is under suspicion for PED use. Everyone here knows that. No one is accusing him but we all know he is under suspicion. If it bothers you that I alluded to that in regard to the mvp vote, then why don't you waste another 2-3 pages of worthless drivel over it because no one is reading it anymore. We are all sick of it. 
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    I was bothered not by the act of allusion but by the actual words of the allusion.
    "No one is reading it anymore."  "We are all sick of it."
    "No one." "All."  "We." "Everyone."
    You not only know all my motives, but you think and speak for all. 
    I've tried hard in these exchanges to cure you of fatuous overstatement, which has repeatedly brought you grief.  My failure.



     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    The only grief has been from you, in case you haven't noticed. Everyone else knows that what I said was accurate. He is suspected of PED use. Wake up.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    Just looking at Google's top 10 for "Bautista PED" they all come up with key words of "wrong, incorrect, unfair."

    Shaughnessy accuses this team of a lot of things and most disregard his words. Why take a bunch of other writers at their word over Bautista?

    What I don't understand is why people who claim to know something about baseball think it odd a player would find himself at 29. Again look at Ortiz, Dewey, and a slew of others. Once again BurritoT sees something the supposed experts don't, baseball hitters best years are from 29 to 33-34. 

    Chances are Bautista will be down to -30 homers a year by the time he reaches 35... 

    boomer you often use the phrase "Dominican Milkshake" which often makes the tone of your posts to suggest that only Dominicans are capable of cheating. 

    I suggest you target Ortiz rather than Bautista if you want to be fair and balanced.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]The only grief has been from you, in case you haven't noticed. Everyone else knows that what I said was accurate. He is suspected of PED use. Wake up.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUote
    I have been sufficiently awake to expose your shoddy handling of the topic.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]Just looking at Google's top 10 for "Bautista PED" they all come up with key words of "wrong, incorrect, unfair." Shaughnessy accuses this team of a lot of things and most disregard his words. Why take a bunch of other writers at their word over Bautista? What I don't understand is why people who claim to know something about baseball think it odd a player would find himself at 29. Again look at Ortiz, Dewey, and a slew of others. Once again BurritoT sees something the supposed experts don't, baseball hitters best years are from 29 to 33-34.  Chances are Bautista will be down to -30 homers a year by the time he reaches 35...  boomer you often use the phrase "Dominican Milkshake" which often makes the tone of your posts to suggest that only Dominicans are capable of cheating.  I suggest you target Ortiz rather than Bautista if you want to be fair and balanced.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    Boom uses a lot of phrases that betray his indifference to "fair and balanced." He seems to think that a fair summary of this issue is that "some writers suspect that Bautista is on PED's." 
    The key words that you cite above seem to have escaped his notice. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    "While analysis of the numbers may tell part of the story, the true reason for Bautista's success isn't buried within a bevy of baseball statistics. It's the immeasurable qualities or the intangible improvements to his game that have turned things around." bluejayhunter.com

    A player can improve given the chance.... age and experience necessary. See: Ortiz.
     
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    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter! : F#ck you. I come to work sober every day. Do you? If you did you would be the first lawyer I met who did. Do you know what you call 100 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean? An excellent start.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Good one.
    Give 'em hell Carnie!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: NEWS FLASH - In case you haven't noticed Ellsbury is having one of the greatest years ever for a lead off batter!

    When businesses like Exxon and Shell make $15 billion a quarter and pay huge amounts of money to buy our government lock, stock and barrel, that is stealing from us. They are the thiefs and they deserve to be made to pay the same tax rates as the rest of us. When a billionaire is paying taxes at a lower rate than a $50,000 per year teacher

    Obama is owned by BP. That is his ethical crime, not legal campaign donations and lobbying from corporations.

    Corporate officers and employees pay a fortune in income and payroll taxes and most shareholders are less than 1000 shares who pay up to 15% on dividends.

    Billionaires don't pay a lower tax rate than a member of the sorry teachers union. They pay the highest income tax rate. Dividends are taxed at 15% for Billionaires and 10% for teachers union members, so teachers pay lower tax rates on income and dividends.

    Most Americans pay zero income taxes.

    Wealthy people pay over 80% of all federal taxes.

    Obama is getting ready to be fired, and his prevarication about tax rates will be exposed to where even idiots like you can understand it.
     

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