Nice article re: Valentine and change

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Nice article re: Valentine and change

    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2012/04/the_prescient_w.html?camp=obnetwork

    I particuliarly like what Al Leiter had to say here:

    "Is he going to get on your nerves? Absolutely he will. If you’re sensitive, you’ll have some issues. But I had some of the best years of my career when I played for him and it was because I was prepared to pitch. He made sure of that."My advice to the Red Sox players is to listen to what he tells you and don’t worry about what he says to the media. If you listen to him, you’ll be a better player.”



    Will our players, management, and owners be smart enough to give him a chance to change what needs changing? We shall all see. I for one am hopeful that we can begin to rebuild this once proud team. We need a professional clubhouse culture with everyone focused on winning, not whining. We need some players to get healthy, and others to stay healthy by maintaining their bodies. And, this off season, we need the owners to step up to the plate one more time to fix the many holes keeping us from another WS ring. We need them to stop rolling dice on marginal talent hoping to find a diamond in the rough. How about just buying some real diamonds for a change? Not rubies/emeralds suggested to be diamonds like Crawford, or turquoise /amethyst like Lackey. But this is for next seasons discussion. For now, let's just try to clean up from last years mess. Get a top down management style in place. Any players not cooperative with it-send 'em packing and I don't care who they are, or think they are. There can be no room for adolescent rebellion on this team. That was last seasons failed approach.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    Don't pay attention to what he says in the media?  How are the players supposed to ignore his comments to the media when the media is going to hound the players for their reaction to Bobby V's comments?  How do you ignore your Boss publicly telling everyone in the world that you lack heart?

    How do you send someone packing when they have a huge multi-year contract,  a high ERA, and a bad arm, particularly when you don't have any say as to who stays or who goes? 

    Tito:  "Ah, Theo, Lackey is a punk and needs to go".
    Theo:  "He makes too much money and produces too little.  No ones going to take him so deal with it".

    ************

    Theo:  "Tito, the team isn't playing well.  Do something"
    Tito:  " Ah, I'm doing the same things I was doing when we won 70% back in June and July.  I have an idea, how about you get me a healthly MLB quality pitcher?.
    Theo:  " Sorry, we spent too much on Crawford and Jenks and Ownership won't approve adding payroll.  Deal with it."

    **************

    "Send them packing" has to be the biggest bunch of B S ever.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    Honestly, fair points, but that's easy for Leiter to say. When he was managed by Valentine, his career was basically in it's twilight. He had, in this order after Valentine left:

    a good season at 37
    an average season at 38
    a bad season at 39

    Then retirement. He wasn't particularly a "New Yorker" either having spent his mid-to-late 20s, and into his 30s in Toronto and Florida.

    For him to apply the logic that worked for him, at that time in his career, in NY...really has NO bearing on anything going on in Boston. Also, Valentine was in his early 50s then, his early 60s now. We all have had relatives, and few people are as mentally acute in their 60s as they were in there 50s...it just happens.

    Sure, he absolutely deserves a chance, but there is plenty of genuine reason to worry that this will absolutely blow up and end up being a horrible decision. At any rate, ownership is giving him a chance. Lucchino is his buddy, I see this as half a favor to let the guy back into the majors when nobody else wanted to give him a job when he obviously wanted one (you don't spend years managing in Japan for fun). This is like oil and vinegar, if Pedroia has been that outspoken, right or wrong, kind of shows you the mentality of the players: THEY run the ship in Boston.
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change : and we all know the name of that ship. her anniversary is coming up soon also.
    Posted by mryazz[/QUOTE]

    100 year anniversary no less. The irony is unbelievable.

    Hopefully Dicaprio never stars in this story, though he did a very good job in The Departed.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    If I thought he was doing a good job, you could live with the fact that he's annoying.  But he's made more mistakes in 12 games than Tito would do in 2 years.

    Watching Morales pitch to Napoli was like watching Pedro pitch to matsui, or watching Beckett pitch to Longoria in 2008.  It seemed automatic that Napoli was going to hit the ball hard someplace.  Same as Longoria v Bard.  There didn't seem to be any chance that something bad wasn't going to happen.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    I agree he's had some deer in the headlight moments, but isn't that to be expected...in all fairness? He's been out of the game for years, and he really needs to get to know the players he's managing. It takes more than a few spring training games, as I'm sure you'd agree. Look, I'm in no way infatuated with Valentine or feel a need to justify every move he makes. I have no idea if he will succeed or not. But what I do know very well, is that this is a team that's lost it's way. Professionalism has been replaced with a selfish "me first" attitude, and it stinks. I want to see someone take the bull by the horns, and right this ship. We, as I know you are well aware, are just a few pieces away from a legit shot at contending for a ring. Our chances diminish greatly if anarchy is allowed to reign. Like Bobby or not you should pull for his success, because by doing so you pull for the Red Sox success. And the inverse is, of course, true as well. 





    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]If I thought he was doing a good job, you could live with the fact that he's annoying.  But he's made more mistakes in 12 games than Tito would do in 2 years. Watching Morales pitch to Napoli was like watching Pedro pitch to matsui, or watching Beckett pitch to Longoria in 2008.  It seemed automatic that Napoli was going to hit the ball hard someplace.  Same as Longoria v Bard.  There didn't seem to be any chance that something bad wasn't going to happen.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]I agree he's had some deer in the headlight moments, but isn't that to be expected...in all fairness? He's been out of the game for years, and he really needs to get to know the players he's managing. It takes more than a few spring training games, as I'm sure you'd agree. Look, I'm in no way infatuated with Valentine or feel a need to justify every move he makes. I have no idea if he will succeed or not. But what I do know very well, is that this is a team that's lost it's way. Professionalism has been replaced with a selfish "me first" attitude, and it stinks. I want to see someone take the bull by the horns, and right this ship. We, as I know you are well aware, are just a few pieces away from a legit shot at contending for a ring. Our chances diminish greatly if anarchy is allowed to reign. Like Bobby or not you should pull for his success, because by doing so you pull for the Red Sox success. And the inverse is, of course, true as well.  In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]

    Excellent post Teakus! You are voice of reason amongst irrational mouthpieces.
    If there is dissention in the ranks, that will make Valetine's job much harder. I recently posted that the veteran players must not let that happen. They have to support the organization, and put their personal feelings aside. Take one for the team, so to speak.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    nice points Teakus......hard work is what is required. We'll find out if this current crop has what it takes. Upper management better start getting FOCUSED though.....they seem out of step with things.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    Thanks Iceman4 and Harv53 for the kind words. Changing a culture is much harder than changing out a person or two. It's gonna take some time and a serious will to change. It also requires that the guy we allegedly brought in to effect change, is actually allowed to lead us towards that change. Henry, Lucchino, and Werner need to ALL be onboard with it.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from krismk. Show krismk's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    My cousin the scarab has seen a thing or two in the past few thousand years.

    When there is talk of change in any organization, the optimists (and those who will benefit the most) take center stage and preach that change is intrinsically good and for the better.  Those who are not all-in are branded as non-team players, uncooperative, ineffective  and ultimately non-supportive of management, regardless of past performace and technical competence.

    The best strategy is to leave.. and then kick the revolutionaries simultaneously in the wallet and on the playing field.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from chronic352. Show chronic352's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    The last few years and the beginning of this year Youk looks like his career may be in it' twilight too!

    The jist of Leiter's comment about Bobby V was the Red Sox players need to be OPEN to what Bobby says instead of overacting like a bunch of whining and shreiking highschoolers (ok, maybe not shreiking but definitely whiney!!)

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]Honestly, fair points, but that's easy for Leiter to say. When he was managed by Valentine, his career was basically in it's twilight. He had, in this order after Valentine left: a good season at 37 an average season at 38 a bad season at 39 Then retirement. He wasn't particularly a "New Yorker" either having spent his mid-to-late 20s, and into his 30s in Toronto and Florida. For him to apply the logic that worked for him, at that time in his career, in NY...really has NO bearing on anything going on in Boston. Also, Valentine was in his early 50s then, his early 60s now. We all have had relatives, and few people are as mentally acute in their 60s as they were in there 50s...it just happens. Sure, he absolutely deserves a chance, but there is plenty of genuine reason to worry that this will absolutely blow up and end up being a horrible decision. At any rate, ownership is giving him a chance. Lucchino is his buddy, I see this as half a favor to let the guy back into the majors when nobody else wanted to give him a job when he obviously wanted one (you don't spend years managing in Japan for fun). This is like oil and vinegar, if Pedroia has been that outspoken, right or wrong, kind of shows you the mentality of the players: THEY run the ship in Boston.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    I agree he's had some deer in the headlight moments, but isn't that to be expected...in all fairness? He's been out of the game for years, and he really needs to get to know the players he's managing. It takes more than a few spring training games, as I'm sure you'd agree.

    I don't completely disagree, but I'm not sure that being out of the league explains everything.

    You're tied in the 7th v TB.  Bard has a career high pitch count.  Most everyone agrees Bard should've been taken out, but that kind of misses a bigger point.  In the highest leverage point in the game, if not the season, the only guys he had warmed up in the BP were out 7th and 8th options.  He put himself on a position where there were no good options.

    Or why did he bring in our de facto setup guy in an 18-3 blowout?

    You can blame him for everything, but every decision he's made has been wrong.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]I agree he's had some deer in the headlight moments, but isn't that to be expected...in all fairness? He's been out of the game for years, and he really needs to get to know the players he's managing. It takes more than a few spring training games, as I'm sure you'd agree. I don't completely disagree, but I'm not sure that being out of the league explains everything. You're tied in the 7th v TB.  Bard has a career high pitch count.  Most everyone agrees Bard should've been taken out, but that kind of misses a bigger point.  In the highest leverage point in the game, if not the season, the only guys he had warmed up in the BP were out 7th and 8th options.  He put himself on a position where there were no good options. Or why did he bring in our de facto setup guy in an 18-3 blowout? You can blame him for everything, but every decision he's made has been wrong.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]
    When you talk about "every decision," as if you knew every decision and the reason for it, you can't be taken seriously. He says he's trying to find out what players can do, and has admitted to mistakes.  Decisions that don't work out are not always wrong. ( Terry said he would have left Bard in. I would have seen what Morales could do with Fielder. Melancon needed to pitch, at any time, just to try to get somebody out. And so on.) And not everything you think is wrong or right is, per se, wrong or right. You might try "disagree" instead of flat "wrong."

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change : When you talk about "every decision," as if you knew every decision  and the reason for it, you can't be taken seriously. He says he's trying to find out what players can do, and has admitted to mistakes.  Decisions that don't work out are not always wrong. ( Terry said he would have left Bard in. I would have seen what Morales could do with Fielder. Melancon needed to pitch, at any time, just to try to get somebody out. And so on.) And not everything you think is wrong or right is, per se, wrong or right. You might try "disagree" instead of flat "wrong."
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    You are correct, 'disagree' is better.

    It's just so unusual that I would disagree with any manager this often.  And to some extent, I try to differentiate between disagreeing and trying to find any rationale for the decisions.

    For example, I'd have pitched to Young.  B2B IW to get to a 3rd hitter are not all that uncommon, but at least I'd understand if you didn't want to load the bases.

    But how are Albers and Thomas your only choices with bases loaded and Longoria up?  There are 6 other guys in the BP, and all of them are better.

    Why did he pitch Padilla in the blowout, and then not have him available the next night?

    Morales allowed a single, an IW, and walk, and a HBP.  I see no upside whatsoever pitching a struggling lefty against a righty who had 3 HRs in the series.

    Did you expect a positive outcome from that?

    He was going to catch Salty one game and Shoppach another.  Why did he choose to have Salty catch Beckett rather than Buchholz?  Beckett didn't care to throw to Salty last year.

    Why pick a fight with Youk during a 3-game winning streak?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change : You are correct, 'disagree' is better. It's just so unusual that I would disagree with any manager this often.  And to some extent, I try to differentiate between disagreeing and trying to find any rationale for the decisions. For example, I'd have pitched to Young.  B2B IW to get to a 3rd hitter are not all that uncommon, but at least I'd understand if you didn't want to load the bases. But how are Albers and Thomas your only choices with bases loaded and Longoria up?  There are 6 other guys in the BP, and all of them are better. Why did he pitch Padilla in the blowout, and then not have him available the next night? Morales allowed a single, an IW, and walk, and a HBP.  I see no upside whatsoever pitching a struggling lefty against a righty who had 3 HRs in the series. Did you expect a positive outcome from that? He was going to catch Salty one game and Shoppach another.  Why did he choose to have Salty catch Beckett rather than Buchholz?  Beckett didn't care to throw to Salty last year. Why pick a fight with Youk during a 3-game winning streak?
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]
    And on and on.
    Valentine didn't intend to "pick a fight," as you put it, with Youkilis. See Boom and Katz, for instance. Your language is more provocative than the situation warrants
    He's making a point, a good one, that there will be no personal catchers. There will be nights when the pitcher will have to take the catcher who's there. Might as well get used to it. Especially Beckett.
    I've twice spoken to the Morales/Fiedler case. I agree with Valentine. I also agree with him and Terry that he was right to see what Bard would do in that situation. And with McClure. There are times when you let a pitcher stay if he "wants a batter," especially early in the season.
    There will be nights when a lefty, struggling or not, will have to pitch to a RHed power hitter.  Might Morales be the one?
    The answer to all of your questions, as Valentine has said, is that he's trying to find out what he's got and doesn't have. That makes sense to me.
    Sounds to me as though, "this early," you're going out of your way to find fault. Valentine annoys you. Fine. But it seems like your emotional reaction to him has prompted a quick trigger and extreme language -- "every decision." 
    ( Did you mean "move"? )
    You don't see "any rationale" for things you've criticized. I do. Irritating as the man can be, no one has ever accused him of not knowing what's going on in a baseball game. Maybe, as Leiter says, the players should listen to this manager. Maybe fans should be patient with him.
    There will be plenty of chances to second-guess Valentine legitimately and to call him a horse's earlobe. I think that you are pressing the case too hard for now. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    A well written rebuttal if ever I saw one. Not bombastic or rude, just a matter of fact presentation of solid points. Nice to see! I also liked your gentle probing of Joe's possible emotional response to Bobby clouding or effecting his assessments of his decisions. Joe has a top flight intellect, likely in the top 10-15% of Americans. But we are all subject to our feelings, many times in ways difficult to predict. Bobby will perform well or not. We will all see the outcome together and I think it will likely be obvious to us all what happened, even if we disagree about some details. But he deserves some time to see exactly what he has in this team. It may involve experimentation and outright guess work at times. But one thing almost everyone agrees with is this: Bobby's no imbecile. He's a very smart man who knows how to lead a club. He also has a big mouth and loves the limelight a bit much for my tastes. I guess we need to see if the good can out weigh the bad.




    In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change : And on and on. Valentine didn't intend to "pick a fight," as you put it, with Youkilis. See Boom and Katz, for instance. Your language is more provocative than the situation warrants He's making a point, a good one, that there will be no personal catchers. There will be nights when the pitcher will have to take the catcher who's there. Might as well get used to it. Especially Beckett. I've twice spoken to the Morales/Fiedler case. I agree with Valentine. I also agree with him and Terry that he was right to see what Bard would do in that situation. And with McClure. There are times when you let a pitcher stay if he "wants a batter," especially early in the season. There will be nights when a lefty, struggling or not, will have to pitch to a RHed power hitter.  Might Morales be the one? The answer to all of your questions, as Valentine has said, is that he's trying to find out what he's got and doesn't have. That makes sense to me. Sounds to me as though, "this early," you're going out of your way to find fault. Valentine annoys you. Fine. But it seems like your emotional reaction to him has prompted a quick trigger and extreme language -- "every decision."  ( Did you mean "move"? ) You don't see "any rationale" for things you've criticized. I do. Irritating as the man can be, no one has ever accused him of not knowing what's going on in a baseball game. Maybe, as Leiter says, the players should listen to this manager. Maybe fans should be patient with him. There will be plenty of chances to second-guess Valentine legitimately and to call him a horse's earlobe. I think that you are pressing the case too hard for now. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Nice article re: Valentine and change

    In Response to Nice article re: Valentine and change:
    [QUOTE]http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2012/04/the_prescient_w.html?camp=obnetwork I particuliarly like what Al Leiter had to say here: "Is he going to get on your nerves? Absolutely he will. If you’re sensitive, you’ll have some issues. But I had some of the best years of my career when I played for him and it was because I was prepared to pitch. He made sure of that."My advice to the Red Sox players is to listen to what he tells you and don’t worry about what he says to the media. If you listen to him, you’ll be a better player.” Will our players, management, and owners be smart enough to give him a chance to change what needs changing? We shall all see. I for one am hopeful that we can begin to rebuild this once proud team. We need a professional clubhouse culture with everyone focused on winning, not whining. We need some players to get healthy, and others to stay healthy by maintaining their bodies. And, this off season, we need the owners to step up to the plate one more time to fix the many holes keeping us from another WS ring. We need them to stop rolling dice on marginal talent hoping to find a diamond in the rough. How about just buying some real diamonds for a change? Not rubies/emeralds suggested to be diamonds like Crawford, or turquoise /amethyst like Lackey. But this is for next seasons discussion. For now, let's just try to clean up from last years mess. Get a top down management style in place. Any players not cooperative with it-send 'em packing and I don't care who they are, or think they are. There can be no room for adolescent rebellion on this team. That was last seasons failed approach.
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]

    Some good points with Crawford, Lackey etc. and we all know Theo had a lot to do with everything going south over the years with his failed FA signings.  We also probably should have kept Beltre, not signed CC and packaged Youk for a starter or OF help but who could have really known how things would turn out. 

    This season was going to go one of two ways from the start and still will.  After last season all our players should want to prove themselves to our fans who pay good money to watch and support them play.  The problem is they also had their good friend "Tito" swept out from under them because a few idiots took advantage of his soft side.   Bobby is a harsh "speak before you think" manager who has already made waves and still has the injuries and pitching problems Tito did. 

    This is not a good recipe for success folks, so don't expect too much and hope things work themselves out.
     
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