no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    I know one thing for certain: this team has too damn much money invested to not give it the pieces it needs to compete for a ring. Not "make the playoffs", but have a true chance to win it all. Being "penny wise and pound foolish" is no management style to applaud. This team NEEDS another starter (assume Bucholtz or Lester misses time, because that is a reasonable thing to do), and at least 1 BP arm. I don't mind going cheap in RF because our offense can handle it, but you don't lose 2 starters to Tommy John surgery, our star closer, and act like everything is fine. Not after the implosion of last season. Man up owners! It looks like you need to go a bit further over the luxury tax threshold. Stop whining about it and get something done already. Adding players via free agency stings now, but emptying out the farm hurts for many years to come. Pick yer poison.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Moon, good point and as always, and well backed up with the numbers.  Still, the 2012 Red Sox may need to more than make up for 2011 considering that Tampa Bay and maybe Toronto and the Orioles will play better baseball throughout the season.  There might also be tougher competition for the wildcard considering that both Texas and Anaheim might have better regular season records.  Just beating out last year's numbers may not be enough considering overall tougher competition within the league. 

    I agree. Relying on a best case scenario for Doubront, Tazawa, Morales, and others, as well as great success for Bard and Aceves as starters is being unrealistic. We need to do more.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    I know one thing for certain: this team has too damn much money invested to not give it the pieces it needs to compete for a ring. Not "make the playoffs", but have a true chance to win it all. Being "penny wise and pound foolish" is no management style to applaud. 

    We will likely be the second highest payroll team again in 2012. How is this being "penny wise"? We extended AGon and Buch in April. That counts towards 2012 raising expenditures. Were thos "pound foolish" moves? Theo improved the team with those two moves for the future, but it was at a steep cost. It's not like we have and will not do much this winter, but you have to take into account that extending AGon and Buch basically ate up almost all of the loss of Drew ($14M) and Paps ($12M). If we go over the cap in 2012, every $10M guy we overpay for will actually cost us $14M. It's not wise to overpay twice for marginal FAs.

    This team NEEDS another starter (assume Bucholtz or Lester misses time, because that is a reasonable thing to do), and at least 1 BP arm. I don't mind going cheap in RF because our offense can handle it, but you don't lose 2 starters to Tommy John surgery, our star closer, and act like everything is fine. 

    It's not "fine". We will have to scramble to make up for 2 vacant slots, but look what those 2 have done for us the last 2 years. It's very possible we will do better in 2012 without any major starter pick-ups. I'm with you though, I'd love to see us trade for a low cost starter who can give us 210 innings. I'm willing to sacrifice some of our offense and/or farm to do it. We are too good to just pass on trying to get better and have a legitimate chance at winning in 2012. Just making the playoffs may mean more than what you give it credit for. Look at the Cards in 2011. After Wainwright went down, nobody gave them a chance. When they made the playoffs, they were probably the 7th or 8th rated team to win it all out of the 8 playoff teams.

    Not after the implosion of last season. Man up owners! It looks like you need to go a bit further over the luxury tax threshold. Stop whining about it and get something done already. Adding players via free agency stings now, but emptying out the farm hurts for many years to come. Pick yer poison.

    Going over the threshold ups the tax percent, and so would hurt "for years to come" as well. It's easy to play with other people's money, but I think Henry OK'd the large expenditures in April (the 2 extensions) and the signing of CC with the idea that we would go light this winter. I don't fault him for sticking to his plan and trying to kake money while fielding a highly competitve team.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from FenwayChuck. Show FenwayChuck's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?": If on February 1st this team hasn't done anything else, then your post will have merit. On December 21st, not so much...January is a great month for "deals," for those teams who are patient...
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]
    Jasko.... January is a great month for BARGAINS.....   just because you can pick up a lot of players in January does not mean that many of them are worth anything.  When a player needs to beg to have a job, he is not much better than a paper boy or short order cook or what have you.  He is not the creme de crop if he is still begging at that point.  Do some of them work out and have a higher value/ $$$ paid-  OH YEAH!  Are a lot of them bench warming cannon fodder- OH YEAH!   SO just because you can get it cheaper doesn;t mean it is a better deal.... judgements must be made as to the overall value of the person in the particular situation.

    BTW Jasko.... In January you can get 10,000 Snuggies and only pay $5000...... How many orders to you want?  Right now you can get a ton of COLTS memorabillia for bottom dollar..... WANT ANY?    Just because the price is lower does not mean the product is worth a pile of doggie droppings.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]Moon, good point and as always, and well backed up with the numbers.  Still, the 2012 Red Sox may need to more than make up for 2011 considering that Tampa Bay and maybe Toronto and the Orioles will play better baseball throughout the season.  There might also be tougher competition for the wildcard considering that both Texas and Anaheim might have better regular season records.  Just beating out last year's numbers may not be enough considering overall tougher competition within the league.  I agree. Relying on a best case scenario for Doubront, Tazawa, Morales, and others, as well as great success for Bard and Aceves as starters is being unrealistic. We need to do more.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    We're not really really relying on great success from those guys.  With Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz, we don't need greatness from Bard and/or Aceves.

    The way I see it, we mostly need length.  Based on last year's ERAs for the big 3, and projecting an ERA of 4.25 for Bard and Aceves, and projecting an average of 175 IPs for all five, then we'd need 107 IPs from our 6/7/8, or approximately 17-18 starts.  If we got last year's ERAs, the 2 4.25 ERAs, and an ERA of 5.00 from our 6/7/8, we have a starting ERA of 3.815, good for 5th in the league.

    Buchholz's health is a concern, but I don't think any of the other numbers are off the board.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]I know one thing for certain: this team has too damn much money invested to not give it the pieces it needs to compete for a ring. Not "make the playoffs", but have a true chance to win it all. Being "penny wise and pound foolish" is no management style to applaud.  We will likely be the second highest payroll team again in 2012. How is this being "penny wise"? We extended AGon and Buch in April. That counts towards 2012 raising expenditures. Were thos "pound foolish" moves? Theo improved the team with those two moves for the future, but it was at a steep cost. It's not like we have and will not do much this winter, but you have to take into account that extending AGon and Buch basically ate up almost all of the loss of Drew ($14M) and Paps ($12M). If we go over the cap in 2012, every $10M guy we overpay for will actually cost us $14M. It's not wise to overpay twice for marginal FAs. This team NEEDS another starter (assume Bucholtz or Lester misses time, because that is a reasonable thing to do), and at least 1 BP arm. I don't mind going cheap in RF because our offense can handle it, but you don't lose 2 starters to Tommy John surgery, our star closer, and act like everything is fine.  It's not "fine". We will have to scramble to make up for 2 vacant slots, but look what those 2 have done for us the last 2 years. It's very possible we will do better in 2012 without any major starter pick-ups. I'm with you though, I'd love to see us trade for a low cost starter who can give us 210 innings. I'm willing to sacrifice some of our offense and/or farm to do it. We are too good to just pass on trying to get better and have a legitimate chance at winning in 2012. Just making the playoffs may mean more than what you give it credit for. Look at the Cards in 2011. After Wainwright went down, nobody gave them a chance. When they made the playoffs, they were probably the 7th or 8th rated team to win it all out of the 8 playoff teams. Not after the implosion of last season. Man up owners! It looks like you need to go a bit further over the luxury tax threshold. Stop whining about it and get something done already. Adding players via free agency stings now, but emptying out the farm hurts for many years to come. Pick yer poison. Going over the threshold ups the tax percent, and so would hurt "for years to come" as well. It's easy to play with other people's money, but I think Henry OK'd the large expenditures in April (the 2 extensions) and the signing of CC with the idea that we would go light this winter. I don't fault him for sticking to his plan and trying to kake money while fielding a highly competitve team.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    The Red Sox need to either stay under the luxury tax  threshold of $178 million for this season to lower next years hit to 17.5%, or go over and spend enough to win it all. They appear to want to be "slightly" over the cap, which is about as dumb as talking about being "a little bit pregnant". Staying over puts us at the 40% tax for 2013 and combined with what we're spending this season, better damn well have us in a position to win a ring. It's why I say if you're gonna go over, go over by a sufficient enough amount to matter. A better course IMO, would be as follows:
    1. Sign Ortiz to a 3 yr $12,10,8 deal and make him a captain...showing him some respect. This salary average knocks $4-5 million off our average for tax purposes.
     2. Trade Salty's $6 million salary to a team for a reliever at half his salary or less, and make Lavarnway the started with Shoppach his back-up. Lavarnway is very bright, a Yale man, and at age 25 (in August) he's physically ready to take over. His defense will lag his offense for awhile, but the benefits far out weigh the costs.
    3. Start Bard and let Aceves close. Hate the whole idea of it, but it will allow us to stay under the cap, and the likelyhood is there for both to excel at their new roles. Our pen will be shockingly weak, but again it's part of an overall strategy and our offense should give us a chance to pound out wins. Dice will hopefully be back in August, and it's also possible we'd make a lateral mid level trade for a reliever. But top tiered prospects must only be used for studs or to join the big club. Period.

    The above will allow the tax rate hit to drop to 17.5% in 2013. In 2014 the cap rises to $189 million, and we'll have several prospects ready to join the big team. Even with Ells looming, we'll be in great shape going forward. But if the plan was to be over the threshold anyway, we should have been in the market for Heath Bell, and probably Wilson and Carlos Beltran. The team would just be too expensive to waste on not winning.

    Red Sox Nation would welcome a coherant approach either way, but get antsy when our leaders appear to lack decisiveness. Pick a path that makes sense, conservative or aggressive. But there should be no thoughts of a middle ground, as nobody should ever be thought to be "a little bit pregnant".

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Have to agree with Joeberidey on this.  Those of us who like the idea of trying Bard and Aceves in the rotation are not counting on them being aces.  We just think they have a pretty good chance to do better than the 5.66 ERA the Sox got out of the 4 and 5 spot last year.  And the upside is that they both could end up doing considerably better.  It is hard to imagine either of them doing worse, in my mind.

    So then you still need someone as the 6th starter (which could be Doubront, or a signing for cheap money) and hope Dice-K makes a respectable late season return.  That means the Sox have leverage and payroll left for a reliever or two to replace Bard and Aceves (assuming for now that Melancon's arm is replacing Papelbon's).  Jenks will almost certainly be better than Jenks.  Albers and Morales are known factors.  Madson and a lesser name in a trade of Iglesias and Reddick would fix the pen up nicely, thanks, while allowing Aceves and Bard the opportunity to show what they can do as starters.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    We're not really really relying on great success from those guys.  With Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz, we don't need greatness from Bard and/or Aceves.

    You are assuming all 3 will be healthy and in form. Beckett has been hot and cold, Buch is coming off an injury, and Lester has been very healthy of late, but are we that sure for 2012?

    The way I see it, we mostly need length.  Based on last year's ERAs for the big 3, and projecting an ERA of 4.25 for Bard and Aceves, and projecting an average of 175 IPs for all five, then we'd need 107 IPs from our 6/7/8, or approximately 17-18 starts.  

    We haven't used just 107 IP from 6 or more since I can remember

    If we got last year's ERAs, the 2 4.25 ERAs, and an ERA of 5.00 from our 6/7/8, we have a starting ERA of 3.815, good for 5th in the league.

    We had a 5.66 ERA from Lackey, Wake, Miller, Dice-K, Bedard, and Weiland combined in 2011. (Our 4-9 starters)

    Buchholz's health is a concern, but I don't think any of the other numbers are off the board.

    No their not, but they are assuming 90-100% health.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    The Red Sox need to either stay under the luxury tax  threshold of $178 million for this season to lower next years hit to 17.5%, or go over and spend enough to win it all. They appear to want to be "slightly" over the cap, which is about as dumb as talking about being "a little bit pregnant". Staying over puts us at the 40% tax for 2013 and combined with what we're spending this season, better damn well have us in a position to win a ring. It's why I say if you're gonna go over, go over by a sufficient enough amount to matter. 

    That makes sense until you look at what free agents are signing for this winter. All seem to be grossly overpaid, and if you add 30% to that, it looks like a horrible idea, unless it's just one year deals. Let's say a guy like Edwin Jackson will get $30-40M/3, if you count the tax, is he really worth $39-52M/3?

    A better course IMO, would be as follows:
    1. Sign Ortiz to a 3 yr $12,10,8 deal and make him a captain...showing him some respect. This salary average knocks $4-5 million off our average for tax purposes.

    If he takes it...BTW, he made $12.5M in 2011, your package would only knock offonly $2.5M from the 2011 numbers.


     2. Trade Salty's $6 million salary to a team for a reliever at half his salary or less, and make Lavarnway the started with Shoppach his back-up. Lavarnway is very bright, a Yale man, and at age 25 (in August) he's physically ready to take over. His defense will lag his offense for awhile, but the benefits far out weigh the costs.

    Where do you get the $6M number? He made $750K last year in his first arb. This will be his 2nd or 3 arbs, and should make maybe $4M. I agree that trading Salty would improve our offense and free up some money for pitching gains. I know Lava needs more help learning how to catch, but I wasn't impressed at all with Salty's defense and game calling skills and how he broke down after playing just about 80 games spread out up to August.


    3. Start Bard and let Aceves close. Hate the whole idea of it, but it will allow us to stay under the cap, and the likelyhood is there for both to excel at their new roles. Our pen will be shockingly weak, but again it's part of an overall strategy and our offense should give us a chance to pound out wins. Dice will hopefully be back in August, and it's also possible we'd make a lateral mid level trade for a reliever. But top tiered prospects must only be used for studs or to join the big club. Period.

    I'd startAceves and let Bard close, but it's a close call. I don't see us gaining anything by gutting our top 3 pen arms out of the pen.

    The above will allow the tax rate hit to drop to 17.5% in 2013. In 2014 the cap rises to $189 million, and we'll have several prospects ready to join the big team. Even with Ells looming, we'll be in great shape going forward. But if the plan was to be over the threshold anyway, we should have been in the market for Heath Bell, and probably Wilson and Carlos Beltran. The team would just be too expensive to waste on not winning. 

    Wilson and Beltran are extremely questionable signings and are (will be) way overpaid.

    Red Sox Nation would welcome a coherant approach either way, but get antsy when our leaders appear to lack decisiveness. Pick a path that makes sense, conservative or aggressive. But there should be no thoughts of a middle ground, as nobody should ever be thought to be "a little bit pregnant".

    I agree, going over by $1-2M doesn't make much sense, either short or long term.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Sorry! Yeah, I meant Scutero not Salty, assuming they added Punto to allow for a trade. As for Papi, he's likely to  get $14 in arbitration, so a 3yr average of $10 lowers our 2012 amount by $4 million for him for tax purposes. I also much prefer Bard as closer, but there's no stopping his move to starter now. It's either Aceves, or we acquire a closer capable reliever. It's going to be interesting to see what path is chosen. My vote is for a team payroll of not higher than $177.99999999999999999, or at least $210ishfor 2012. If it's $180 or $185 someone's not doing their job.



    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]The Red Sox need to either stay under the luxury tax  threshold of $178 million for this season to lower next years hit to 17.5%, or go over and spend enough to win it all. They appear to want to be "slightly" over the cap, which is about as dumb as talking about being "a little bit pregnant". Staying over puts us at the 40% tax for 2013 and combined with what we're spending this season, better damn well have us in a position to win a ring. It's why I say if you're gonna go over, go over by a sufficient enough amount to matter.  That makes sense until you look at what free agents are signing for this winter. All seem to be grossly overpaid, and if you add 30% to that, it looks like a horrible idea, unless it's just one year deals. Let's say a guy like Edwin Jackson will get $30-40M/3, if you count the tax, is he really worth $39-52M/3? A better course IMO, would be as follows: 1. Sign Ortiz to a 3 yr $12,10,8 deal and make him a captain...showing him some respect. This salary average knocks $4-5 million off our average for tax purposes. If he takes it...BTW, he made $12.5M in 2011, your package would only knock offonly $2.5M from the 2011 numbers.  2. Trade Salty's $6 million salary to a team for a reliever at half his salary or less, and make Lavarnway the started with Shoppach his back-up. Lavarnway is very bright, a Yale man, and at age 25 (in August) he's physically ready to take over. His defense will lag his offense for awhile, but the benefits far out weigh the costs. Where do you get the $6M number? He made $750K last year in his first arb. This will be his 2nd or 3 arbs, and should make maybe $4M. I agree that trading Salty would improve our offense and free up some money for pitching gains. I know Lava needs more help learning how to catch, but I wasn't impressed at all with Salty's defense and game calling skills and how he broke down after playing just about 80 games spread out up to August. 3. Start Bard and let Aceves close. Hate the whole idea of it, but it will allow us to stay under the cap, and the likelyhood is there for both to excel at their new roles. Our pen will be shockingly weak, but again it's part of an overall strategy and our offense should give us a chance to pound out wins. Dice will hopefully be back in August, and it's also possible we'd make a lateral mid level trade for a reliever. But top tiered prospects must only be used for studs or to join the big club. Period. I'd startAceves and let Bard close, but it's a close call. I don't see us gaining anything by gutting our top 3 pen arms out of the pen. The above will allow the tax rate hit to drop to 17.5% in 2013. In 2014 the cap rises to $189 million, and we'll have several prospects ready to join the big team. Even with Ells looming, we'll be in great shape going forward. But if the plan was to be over the threshold anyway, we should have been in the market for Heath Bell, and probably Wilson and Carlos Beltran. The team would just be too expensive to waste on not winning.  Wilson and Beltran are extremely questionable signings and are (will be) way overpaid. Red Sox Nation would welcome a coherant approach either way, but get antsy when our leaders appear to lack decisiveness. Pick a path that makes sense, conservative or aggressive. But there should be no thoughts of a middle ground, as nobody should ever be thought to be "a little bit pregnant". I agree, going over by $1-2M doesn't make much sense, either short or long term.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Sorry! Yeah, I meant Scutero not Salty, assuming they added Punto to allow for a trade.

    OK, I also think Scutaro is the most likely player to be traded to lower payroll and possibly allow us to improve our staff and still stay below the tax limit. (Youk is another possibility, but I am not sure we'd get equal value in return. However, two playoff teams lost or are about to lose their allstart 1Bmen, so...

     As for Papi, he's likely to  get $14 in arbitration, so a 3yr average of $10 lowers our 2012 amount by $4 million for him for tax purposes. 

    I see your point, but I still see it as eating into our winter spending limit by probably costing a little more than $12.5M. If we can reduce it by going 2-3 years, it may help us this year, but what about 2013 and 2014? I think I'd rather see a club option thrown in their to allow us to cut our losses if he declines significantly, maybe something like this:
    2012: $12.5M with incentives ($1M easy, 1M hard)
    2013: $10M with club buyout of $1.5M
    This would actually be a $14M luxury tax hit on 2012, but gives us flexibilty for 2013. 
    Do you really want Papi as our DH when we start playing more games in NL parks and as he ages?

    I also much prefer Bard as closer, but there's no stopping his move to starter now. 

    I'm not sure it is so set in stone.

    It's either Aceves, or we acquire a closer capable reliever. 

    I think Aceves has the mentality to close, but I'm not sure they'd just hand it to him until after ST.

    It's going to be interesting to see what path is chosen. My vote is for a team payroll of not higher than $177.99999999999999999, or at least $210ishfor 2012. If it's $180 or $185 someone's not doing their job.

    I certainly understand your point, but if Sox ownership plans on staying very close to the limit for the foreseeable future, then a $17.5% or 50% tax is not that different if we only go over by $1-3M each year. 

    It does make sense to bring down our rate, so in the future we can go over by a lot if need be, and not get a huge tax hit, but that's assuming someday we will go way over. Maybe the plan is to stay above or below by $1 to 5M always.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Closing in Houston is not a pressure situation when you are mathmatically eliminated from the race after the first month of the season. Please I remeber when we traded Coco Crisp for Ramirez who was a bust in 2009. 

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]Didn't they just make a trade for a potential closer/set up guy and sign a untility infielder? They got big Papi to arbitration.  Granted, they need a RF, but they can win with what they had last year minus Drew. They do have holes in the rotation, but filling those holes will require some finesse.  They have 2/5ths of the rotation is on the DL and those 2 guys make a ton of cash.  Do you hope that Dice-K is ready by the AS game to help for the 2nd half of the season and sign a pitcher to a longterm contract with the intent of letting Dice-K go at the end of this year?  And if you want to sign a top shelf pitcher to a long term contract how do you get him?  Through a trade?  If so, who do you trade? To fill the holes on the the rotation will require finesse.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    I do see your points about Papi, but just don't see him agreeing to less than a 3 yr deal. As for Bard, becoming a starter is a good career move for him as you know, and all the public discussions have more or less etched this in stone IMO. Aceves has much less to say about what he wants. I also hear your point about staying really close to the tax threshold, but view it differently. The Yanks are likely going to hit the 50% tax rate for 2013, which would basically eliminate them from any block buster FA signings-unless they dump massive salary 1st. The Red Sox could sit at 17.5% for 2013, allowing them greater latitude should they want to agressively pursue FA's. I agree that our current 30% hit isn't massive as long as they keep the amount to be penalized low, but think if we're gonna blow through the barrier we should do it with purpose. I'm excited to see how things pan out Moonslav57! Should be a fun season.




    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]Sorry! Yeah, I meant Scutero not Salty, assuming they added Punto to allow for a trade. OK, I also think Scutaro is the most likely player to be traded to lower payroll and possibly allow us to improve our staff and still stay below the tax limit. (Youk is another possibility, but I am not sure we'd get equal value in return. However, two playoff teams lost or are about to lose their allstart 1Bmen, so...  As for Papi, he's likely to  get $14 in arbitration, so a 3yr average of $10 lowers our 2012 amount by $4 million for him for tax purposes.  I see your point, but I still see it as eating into our winter spending limit by probably costing a little more than $12.5M. If we can reduce it by going 2-3 years, it may help us this year, but what about 2013 and 2014? I think I'd rather see a club option thrown in their to allow us to cut our losses if he declines significantly, maybe something like this: 2012: $12.5M with incentives ($1M easy, 1M hard) 2013: $10M with club buyout of $1.5M This would actually be a $14M luxury tax hit on 2012, but gives us flexibilty for 2013.  Do you really want Papi as our DH when we start playing more games in NL parks and as he ages? I also much prefer Bard as closer, but there's no stopping his move to starter now.  I'm not sure it is so set in stone. It's either Aceves, or we acquire a closer capable reliever.  I think Aceves has the mentality to close, but I'm not sure they'd just hand it to him until after ST. It's going to be interesting to see what path is chosen. My vote is for a team payroll of not higher than $177.99999999999999999, or at least $210ishfor 2012. If it's $180 or $185 someone's not doing their job. I certainly understand your point, but if Sox ownership plans on staying very close to the limit for the foreseeable future, then a $17.5% or 50% tax is not that different if we only go over by $1-3M each year.  It does make sense to bring down our rate, so in the future we can go over by a lot if need be, and not get a huge tax hit, but that's assuming someday we will go way over. Maybe the plan is to stay above or below by $1 to 5M always.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]I do see your points about Papi, but just don't see him agreeing to less than a 3 yr deal. As for Bard, becoming a starter is a good career move for him as you know, and all the public discussions have more or less etched this in stone IMO. Aceves has much less to say about what he wants. I also hear your point about staying really close to the tax threshold, but view it differently. The Yanks are likely going to hit the 50% tax rate for 2013, which would basically eliminate them from any block buster FA signings-unless they dump massive salary 1st. The Red Sox could sit at 17.5% for 2013, allowing them greater latitude should they want to agressively pursue FA's. I agree that our current 30% hit isn't massive as long as they keep the amount to be penalized low, but think if we're gonna blow through the barrier we should do it with purpose. I'm excited to see how things pan out Moonslav57! Should be a fun season. In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING? :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]

    Papi has to agree to the binding arbitration amount ( 1 year deal) or retire.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Worry thread. The Sox did do something(s): New GM, New Coach, new bench coaches, signed Melancon, signed Punto, Lackey out for the year, no more V-tek and Wake. Every season can't be filled with big ticket signings. The Sox players just need to live up to their talent. How about that. And I think they will this season under Bobby V. The pitching staff will be better. Crawford will be better. And the Sox will be right back in the hunt for first place. Just give it a chance to unfold before you push the panic button. GO SOX.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    i agree scutaro should be traded. iglesias should become the starter with punto as his back up. I know people will say that he should not start because he cannot hit but last time i checked most teams dont expect a whole lot of offense out of their number 9 spot in the batting order. it is iglesias' defense that makes him starter worthy. scutaro has no range what so ever and does not have much of an arm. The team talks about not having much to spend, then why did they pick up his 6 million dollar option in the first place? not very smart. Also speaking of scutaro i heard rumors of a 3 team deal between kc, the sox, and the braves in which scutaro and lorenzo cain would go to atl, jurjens to kc, and soria to the sox. I also agree lavarnway should be the starter. its clear salty is nothing special and his defense is average at best.(average is generous at this point) start lavarnway, trade salty for some pen help. At this point our starting pitching options are very few in number. I think our best option at this point is roy oswalt on a 1 year deal. he is 34 so he should still have a couple of good years left in him and he will be pitching on a 1 year deal trying to earn his next contract and prove he's still got it. let the yankees sign kuroda. he is 37 and has pitched his entire career in one of the weakest hitting divisions in baseball. no thanks. As for closers, there are two guys available at this point and the sox really need to get one of them. Those two guys are andrew bailey and joakim soria. Forget ryan madson. He has been a career set up man and has only been a closer for 1 year and is already in his 30's. again, no thanks. And finally, sox fans have every right to question the fo as they should have at least filled one of the teams major holes by now and they have not. The sox passed on yu darvish which i think was a huge mistake and passed on gio gonzalez leaving them with only mediocre pitching talent left. buchholz is coming off of a major back injury and was never an established number 3 pitcher to start with.(he still has never pitched 200 innings in one season). Bard is a huge wildcard and honestly i still think moving him to the rotation will backfire. The sox need to starting fillings some of the holes on the roster before all the good option are off the board. They already missed out on the good starters. Hopefully we can at least get a good closer. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]i agree scutaro should be traded. iglesias should become the starter with punto as his back up. I know people will say that he should not start because he cannot hit but last time i checked most teams dont expect a whole lot of offense out of their number 9 spot in the batting order. it is iglesias' defense that makes him starter worthy. scutaro has no range what so ever and does not have much of an arm. The team talks about not having much to spend, then why did they pick up his 6 million dollar option in the first place? not very smart. Also speaking of scutaro i heard rumors of a 3 team deal between kc, the sox, and the braves in which scutaro and lorenzo cain would go to atl, jurjens to kc, and soria to the sox. I also agree lavarnway should be the starter. its clear salty is nothing special and his defense is average at best.(average is generous at this point) start lavarnway, trade salty for some pen help. At this point our starting pitching options are very few in number. I think our best option at this point is roy oswalt on a 1 year deal. he is 34 so he should still have a couple of good years left in him and he will be pitching on a 1 year deal trying to earn his next contract and prove he's still got it. let the yankees sign kuroda. he is 37 and has pitched his entire career in one of the weakest hitting divisions in baseball. no thanks. As for closers, there are two guys available at this point and the sox really need to get one of them. Those two guys are andrew bailey and joakim soria. Forget ryan madson. He has been a career set up man and has only been a closer for 1 year and is already in his 30's. again, no thanks. And finally, sox fans have every right to question the fo as they should have at least filled one of the teams major holes by now and they have not. The sox passed on yu darvish which i think was a huge mistake and passed on gio gonzalez leaving them with only mediocre pitching talent left. buchholz is coming off of a major back injury and was never an established number 3 pitcher to start with.(he still has never pitched 200 innings in one season). Bard is a huge wildcard and honestly i still think moving him to the rotation will backfire. The sox need to starting fillings some of the holes on the roster before all the good option are off the board. They already missed out on the good starters. Hopefully we can at least get a good closer. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    So... the Sox trade Scutaro for Soria?

    I think you left some details out, such as the players the Sox are including...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]Clearly our areas of weakness.....time is going by...guys being signed. Maybe we do something mid year at trade deadline....I know there is still time. I just don't get a good feeling about this. Lackluster offseason. Thoughts?
    Posted by sday4x4[/QUOTE]

    there are movers and there are watchers.
    ben looks like a watcher.
    even if or when they throw him a few bones to do something with, he processes things slower than theo. their own words. i was afraid that would mean what i thought it was. i prefer someone who is decisive and who makes the right call most of the time. unlike ben, or those who was decisive, but made the wrong f.a. move or contract more often than not.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bgomez. Show bgomez's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]i agree scutaro should be traded. iglesias should become the starter with punto as his back up. I know people will say that he should not start because he cannot hit but last time i checked most teams dont expect a whole lot of offense out of their number 9 spot in the batting order. it is iglesias' defense that makes him starter worthy. scutaro has no range what so ever and does not have much of an arm. The team talks about not having much to spend, then why did they pick up his 6 million dollar option in the first place? not very smart. Also speaking of scutaro i heard rumors of a 3 team deal between kc, the sox, and the braves in which scutaro and lorenzo cain would go to atl, jurjens to kc, and soria to the sox. I also agree lavarnway should be the starter. its clear salty is nothing special and his defense is average at best.(average is generous at this point) start lavarnway, trade salty for some pen help. At this point our starting pitching options are very few in number. I think our best option at this point is roy oswalt on a 1 year deal. he is 34 so he should still have a couple of good years left in him and he will be pitching on a 1 year deal trying to earn his next contract and prove he's still got it. let the yankees sign kuroda. he is 37 and has pitched his entire career in one of the weakest hitting divisions in baseball. no thanks. As for closers, there are two guys available at this point and the sox really need to get one of them. Those two guys are andrew bailey and joakim soria. Forget ryan madson. He has been a career set up man and has only been a closer for 1 year and is already in his 30's. again, no thanks. And finally, sox fans have every right to question the fo as they should have at least filled one of the teams major holes by now and they have not. The sox passed on yu darvish which i think was a huge mistake and passed on gio gonzalez leaving them with only mediocre pitching talent left. buchholz is coming off of a major back injury and was never an established number 3 pitcher to start with.(he still has never pitched 200 innings in one season). Bard is a huge wildcard and honestly i still think moving him to the rotation will backfire. The sox need to starting fillings some of the holes on the roster before all the good option are off the board. They already missed out on the good starters. Hopefully we can at least get a good closer. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    Source?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING? : there are movers and there are watchers. ben looks like a watcher. even if or when they throw him a few bones to do something with, he processes things slower than theo. their own words. i was afraid that would mean what i thought it was. i prefer someone who is decisive and who makes the right call most of the time. unlike ben, or those who was decisive, but made the wrong f.a. move or contract more often than not.
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]

    I just want smart decisions.  Speed means nothing to me.  I'd rather make a good deal for a #4 SP 3 weeks from now than make a bad deal for a #3 SP tomorrow.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    In Response to Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING? : there are movers and there are watchers. ben looks like a watcher. even if or when they throw him a few bones to do something with, he processes things slower than theo. their own words. i was afraid that would mean what i thought it was. i prefer someone who is decisive and who makes the right call most of the time. unlike ben, or those who was decisive, but made the wrong f.a. move or contract more often than not.

    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    i agree scutaro should be traded. iglesias should become the starter with punto as his back up. I know people will say that he should not start because he cannot hit but last time i checked most teams dont expect a whole lot of offense out of their number 9 spot in the batting order. it is iglesias' defense that makes him starter worthy. scutaro has no range what so ever and does not have much of an arm. The team talks about not having much to spend, then why did they pick up his 6 million dollar option in the first place? not very smart. 

    Were you aware that if the Sox did not give him $6M to play here, they'd have to give him $1.5M to play elsewhere (Buyout option)? In a sense, we only paid him $4.5M. That seems close to understandable. We could trade him and pay $1.5M of his salary and break even on finances and have something to show for giving him the option. Is that really "not very smart"?

    Also speaking of scutaro i heard rumors of a 3 team deal between kc, the sox, and the braves in which scutaro and lorenzo cain would go to atl, jurjens to kc, and soria to the sox. 

    I wish we could just bypass KC and get Jurrjens for Scutaro and maybe Middlebrooks or Doubront.

    I also agree lavarnway should be the starter. its clear salty is nothing special and his defense is average at best.(average is generous at this point) start lavarnway, trade salty for some pen help. 

    I agree on this point, but having catcher depth is not a bad thing when all have question marks.

    At this point our starting pitching options are very few in number. I think our best option at this point is roy oswalt on a 1 year deal. he is 34 so he should still have a couple of good years left in him and he will be pitching on a 1 year deal trying to earn his next contract and prove he's still got it. let the yankees sign kuroda. he is 37 and has pitched his entire career in one of the weakest hitting divisions in baseball. no thanks. 

    I doubt we can stay under the tax limit and sign Oswalt, but I'm not sure what he'll end up getting. More likely we'll end up with the Brandon Webb or Wakefield types.

    As for closers, there are two guys available at this point and the sox really need to get one of them. Those two guys are andrew bailey and joakim soria. Forget ryan madson. He has been a career set up man and has only been a closer for 1 year and is already in his 30's. again, no thanks. And finally, sox fans have every right to question the fo as they should have at least filled one of the teams major holes by now and they have not. The sox passed on yu darvish which i think was a huge mistake and passed on gio gonzalez leaving them with only mediocre pitching talent left. buchholz is coming off of a major back injury and was never an established number 3 pitcher to start with.(he still has never pitched 200 innings in one season). Bard is a huge wildcard and honestly i still think moving him to the rotation will backfire. The sox need to starting fillings some of the holes on the roster before all the good option are off the board. They already missed out on the good starters. Hopefully we can at least get a good closer. 

    The starters we "missed out on" were marginal starters getting paid "ace" money... no thnaks! There are still starters available, but not having money to spend limits our choices.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: no "named" closer, right field is a guessing game, the rotation is unstable...WHAT IS BEN DOING?

    Maybe Ben is doing more than some think by not making desperate FA signings and trades.  April and September indicate other kinds of team problems than just how much talent Red Sox have.  In another post, it was stated that the Red Sox might be very happy with young organizational outfielders like Josh Reddick, Ryan Kalish and someone like Juan Carlos Linares with both RH hitting power and defensive upsides.  I don't think Ben deserves criticism just cause some have suggested the Red Sox are being smarter with its money.  Not at all sure the Red Sox would be better if Ben had signed Aramis Ramirez, instead of the Brewers and Carlos Beltran instead of the Cardinals.  When the team is convinced Jose Iglesias has benefitted as much as he can from hitting for the PawSox, Jose will either be the Red Sox SS or traded.  By then the team will also know whether Will Middlebrooks is the real thing at 3B so that Kevin Youkilis can become the DH, which will also not necessitate the Red Sox trying to sign Big Papi for 2013. Putting together a team is a longer term process with some short term tweaking such as signing Punto, Shoppach, and acquiring Melancon and I, for one, don't think fans should be so impatient with Ben Cherington, who before he is settled in as the Red Sox GM, may, in every respect, be thought to be a better and more successful GM than Lou Gorman, Dan Duquette, and even Theo Epstein, whose teams except for Theo had not won a World Series.  And we should not forget that Ben Cherington may have been more instrumental than any of us know in the 04 and 07 World Championships?
     
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