No contract yet for Ortiz.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]I am not one who is fond of a one dimensional player taking up the DH slot but as a realist...I don't see how the Sox are going to easily replace him in the lineup.  He at least lends some credibility to a shrinking power base that the Sox are being forced to deal with next year.  With money tight and pitching in shambles...most of the money will go to shore up the starting and BP pitching since it appears Paps will also walk.  I honestly believe his heart is with Boston and he would take less to play here if given the chance.
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]

    Agree. Tough to fill his shoes. Really can't think of anyone else I'd want at the plate with the game on the line.
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]That is right. Go thru his 29 homers and you'll see that most came when the sox were winning. He seldom hit when the sox were behind. The pressure got to him last year, especially in september, when he was needed most. One home run in September. 1 for 13 his last post season appearance.
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    Jackbu has a dartboard in his rec room and it has pictures of Papi on it. For some reason 90% of his posts are involved in bashing Papi. Maybe he got bad service at Papi's restaurant. Maybe he just desires to be the forum's designated Papi basher like Andrewmitch is the designated Drew basher, Softlaw on Jake, and Bosox1941 on Tito. Each wants his ten minutes of forum fame.

    It does get predictable and very boring.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

       FORGET LAST YEARS #'s......  PAPI, IS A LIABILITY...... 36 GOING ON 39 AND CAN'T RUN........  CAN'T STAND WATCHING HIM TRYING TO DRIVE THE BALL THROUGH THE SHIFT !!!  TIME TO CUT THE CORD !!!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    You guys are suggesting letting a guy with a .953 OPS walk, and replace him with nothing?  If you actually watched the Red Sox games in September, you know he missed about 5 HRs by inches and still had an OBP of .400 in September.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    Exactly correct sir. The fact is David is cheaper, and likely better, than his replacement would be. Cherington would be wise to wrap this up long before Thanksgiving. It was a mistake not getting it done last week.




    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]You guys are suggesting letting a guy with a .953 OPS walk, and replace him with nothing?  If you actually watched the Red Sox games in September, you know he missed about 5 HRs by inches and still had an OBP of .400 in September.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    Ortiz might be a better hitter than his possible replacement, but I doubt he'd be cheaper.  And it's possible his replacement could actually play a position on an as needed basis.

    As far as getting a deal done, if he wants 3 years and wants to test FA to see if he can get it to haqve leverage, it's not like he's gonna hop on a 1 year deal from the Sox.  So I guess I'm saying that there is a businees component to this whole thing that Ortiz seems to be missing when he says "I'm surprised I'm not signed yet" in interviews with the media.   
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]Of course Ortiz will be back. Cherington says he wants him. Ortiz says he wants to stay with the Red Sox. The Blue Jays re-signed Encarnacion for DH and Cashman said the Yankees want to rotate three or four guys at that position next year, which effectively rules out Ortiz for New York. National League teams won't want him as a 1B, especially not on a multi-year deal. The Rays can't compete with the Red Sox financially. The Orioles need to think longer-term than a guy in his late 30s. I don't see that he has a lot of options. In all likelihood, he'll come back for 1 year/$10 million, plus a team option for a second year at $10 million or a $4 million buy-out. That way, at minimum, he picks up $14 million for 1 year but the Red Sox have the flexibility to keep him for two years at a total of $20 million, if he's still productive. The Red Sox can add a second team option for a third year at $10 million, with a lower buy-out, like $2 million. That's a win-win deal for both sides. Ortiz sort of gets his 3 year deal. He either makes $14 million for 1 year (a raise on his 2011 salary), $22 million for 2 years (probably his actual value), or $30 million for 3 years. My guess is that the team would exercise its first option and decline the second one. The Red Sox fare well because they lock Ortiz into a reasonable contract and control him for up to three additional years, while retaining the flexibility to drop him at the end of one season without incurring a significant Renteria-like sunk cost.
    Posted by davidap[/QUOTE]

    The Red Sox should rotate guys into the DH role also. No team can afford to have a DH who plays no other positions.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]   FORGET LAST YEARS #'s......  PAPI, IS A LIABILITY...... 36 GOING ON 39 AND CAN'T RUN........  CAN'T STAND WATCHING HIM TRYING TO DRIVE THE BALL THROUGH THE SHIFT !!!  TIME TO CUT THE CORD !!!
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    Bill- Did you watch Papi at all last year?  The reason we can't just "forget last years #s" is that he went through a pretty drastic make-over in his hitting approach.  He began using all fields in a way he hadn't in a few years.  Though not completely, as a power hitter like papi is still going to be pulling the ball often, he began rendering the shift silly.  And, more importantly, pitchers had to pitch him honest, which they hadn't done for a few years.  Hence, the average jump.  he closed up the gaping holes in his approach that had been exposed in 09 and 10.  

    Now, I am all for being not throwing money willy-nilly at Papi, but, IMO, yourself and many others are underestimating what he brings to the table, and overestimating the supposed negative energy he contributed to the club.  

    If the Ortiz camp is shooting for the moon, ok, let him walk.  But, IMO, it would be a mistake on many levels to not make a good offer.  1. he is still a game changer, 2. mark my words, if he ends up somehwere else in the AL East, we will rue the day he walked out the door and 3.  he's Big Papi.  call me old-fashioned.  But he is carved into the Mount Rushmore of Sox heroes.  I want him to retire a Red Stocking.  I think its funny that some people here are quick to talk of the FO's cold, calculating approach to its vets, when these same 'fans' are ready to kick the most important Red Sox player not named Teddy unceremoniously out the door, after a really strong season for chrissake. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : Right. His 30 HRs and 100 RBIs mean nothing? Because his walk-offs have declined, the fan base wants him to walk away. He had his best year hitting LHP and is arguably the best DH in the league. I'll admit that the one dimension is not ideal, but really, he could spell Gonzalez at 1B l as good as anyone else if Youk is not available.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    I love Papi and want yhim back, but look at the OBPs of the players up ahead of Papi this year. To me, the RBI total 9in context) was rather low.

    I'd offer him:
    year 1: $10M with easy incentive to bring it to $12M and harder ones to bring to $13M.
    year 2: $8M + $2M if he reached most of the 2012 incentives, plus the same performance incentives from 2012.
    year 3: $8M with $2M buyout and minimal incentives.
    Guaranteed $20M/2, but could reach $26M/2 or about $35M/3

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : I love Papi and want yhim back, but look at the OBPs of the players up ahead of Papi this year. To me, the RBI total 9in context) was rather low. I'd offer him: year 1: $10M with easy incentive to bring it to $12M and harder ones to bring to $13M. year 2: $8M + $2M if he reached most of the 2012 incentives, plus the same performance incentives from 2012. year 3: $8M with $2M buyout and minimal incentives. Guaranteed $20M/2, but could reach $26M/2 or about $35M/3
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Another good point moon and I also believe this is being discussed as we speak just not open to the public just yet.  Keeping Papi is huge in with the ideal contract but there are other options and benefits to not signing him.  There are a lot of good players out there, if we can find a more productive RF and/or DH combined offensively than Papi, Reddick and Drew we still make out pretty well plus picks.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSNS14. Show RSNS14's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]Rutland: am I making anything up about Ortiz? Did he hit more then one homer in september? I am sorry if you live in the past. 04 and 07 are gone, I'd like to win another title and Ortiz is not part of the solution.
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    Ortiz ranked # 6 in all of baseball for offensive production. he easily had his best year since 2007. While some regression is expected next year, we will not be able to replace that kind of production by rotating say Lavarnway or Youk at DH. Get real. No way 3 years but I'd offer 2 at 12 million. John Henry has that kind of money in his wallet. And by the way, stop with the sloppy stuff. The guy has earned his respect. Loser.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : But the OBPs of players ahead of him doesn't necessarily reflect the number of RBI opportunities he had.  Ortiz had a .908 OPS with RISP so that suggests he did hit well with RBI opportunities.  His ratio of RBI to PA's with RISP (96/177) was almost identical to A-Gon's (117/220).
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Gonzalez may have hurt Ortiz in this regard - clearing the base-runners in front of him, but often times not making it past first base, or unable to score from second on a single.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : I love Papi and want yhim back, but look at the OBPs of the players up ahead of Papi this year. To me, the RBI total 9in context) was rather low.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    But the OBPs of players ahead of him doesn't necessarily reflect the number of RBI opportunities he had.  Ortiz had a .908 OPS with RISP so that suggests he did hit well with RBI opportunities.  His ratio of RBI to PA's with RISP (96/177) was almost identical to A-Gon's (117/220).
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    Wow, Lowrie is better than Ortiz. Nice disparity stat snipets, Moonslob.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    Moonslob is going to offer a 36 year old DH 26 million guaranteed over 3 years, when the market is no more than base 10 X 2 years. Nice work. Remember, important to save 1 or 2M by resigning Varisukdisabled.

    Ortiz should be re-signed, but it isnt going to take 26 million.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : But the OBPs of players ahead of him doesn't necessarily reflect the number of RBI opportunities he had.  Ortiz had a .908 OPS with RISP so that suggests he did hit well with RBI opportunities.  His ratio of RBI to PA's with RISP (96/177) was almost identical to A-Gon's (117/220).
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


    When you figure in Papi's 29 HRs, he actually just batted in 67 of the 177 or 37.8%  runners in scoring position. (AGon 90 of 220 or 40.9%)


    AGon batted 50 points higher than Papi with RISP.


    High leverage situations (OPS)?
    AGon  .948
    Ellsb   .946
    Lowrie .936
    Pedey .863
    Youk   .858
    Papi    .846
    (As compared to their overall OPS, Papi had the worse disparity.)

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    Papi's complaining leads me to two thoughts.  One, he is showing his self-centeredness, it's all about me-ness, yet again.  Two, he is likely to be offended by any reasonable offer.  This leads me to think that there is a very good chance he is not in the lineup for the Sox next year.  And I would argue that he is much less important than he otherwise would be, with AGon now a fixture.  AGon is a slow left-handed bat with good OBP and power, but little ability to manufacture runs once on base.  He has supplanted Papi in the batting order.  The Sox are hindered, not helped, by having a second such hitter in the lineup.  A decent hitting RH bat would help the lineup more than paying Papi 12 million a year to duplicate what someone else already provides in the lineup.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz. : Bill- Did you watch Papi at all last year?  The reason we can't just "forget last years #s" is that he went through a pretty drastic make-over in his hitting approach.  He began using all fields in a way he hadn't in a few years.  Though not completely, as a power hitter like papi is still going to be pulling the ball often, he began rendering the shift silly.  And, more importantly, pitchers had to pitch him honest, which they hadn't done for a few years.  Hence, the average jump.  he closed up the gaping holes in his approach that had been exposed in 09 and 10.   Now, I am all for being not throwing money willy-nilly at Papi, but, IMO, yourself and many others are underestimating what he brings to the table, and overestimating the supposed negative energy he contributed to the club.   If the Ortiz camp is shooting for the moon, ok, let him walk.  But, IMO, it would be a mistake on many levels to not make a good offer.  1. he is still a game changer, 2. mark my words, if he ends up somehwere else in the AL East, we will rue the day he walked out the door and 3.  he's Big Papi.  call me old-fashioned.  But he is carved into the Mount Rushmore of Sox heroes.  I want him to retire a Red Stocking.  I think its funny that some people here are quick to talk of the FO's cold, calculating approach to its vets, when these same 'fans' are ready to kick the most important Red Sox player not named Teddy unceremoniously out the door, after a really strong season for chrissake. 
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]SPACE...... JUICE !!!  I STAND BY MY REMARKS........ 36 GOING ON 42 !!!!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]Papi's complaining leads me to two thoughts.  One, he is showing his self-centeredness, it's all about me-ness, yet again.  Two, he is likely to be offended by any reasonable offer.  This leads me to think that there is a very good chance he is not in the lineup for the Sox next year.  And I would argue that he is much less important than he otherwise would be, with AGon now a fixture.  AGon is a slow left-handed bat with good OBP and power, but little ability to manufacture runs once on base.  He has supplanted Papi in the batting order.  The Sox are hindered, not helped, by having a second such hitter in the lineup.  A decent hitting RH bat would help the lineup more than paying Papi 12 million a year to duplicate what someone else already provides in the lineup.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]Not buying the logic here of having two slower footed high OPS hitters being all that awful. In fact I'd rather have a slow footed LF over the 2011 Carl Crawford any day and twice on Sunday. The RS did not end up where they did because of offense. Manufacturing runs is highly over rated, ask the Mariners. 

    IMO this is all about years and initial discussions between the RS and Ortiz' agent are such that the RS are going to take the position that "let's talk more after you have a chance to gage the market."

    I am not sure that the RS or Ortiz' camp has any idea what his market value is. Vlad and Matsui are the most comparable but they aren't true comps. Ortiz is the arguably the best DH in history and was the nbest DH in MLB last season.

    The Sox aren't going to fall out of bed on Ortiz before they know what the situation is with Papelbon and limit their options with him. I think they RS would like to avoid walking away from the hot stove without either. Now Ortiz is going to whine about that but so be it. I don't know what positive spin he can put on it, so short of saying I don't want to talk about the state of the current discussions, what does he say? And even if he says that the Boston market is full of talking heads and mediots that will spin that as dissatisfaction any way. 

    Ortiz is the best DH on the FA, Paplebon the best closer. The RS know it. Their subtraction has consequence but market value may make them very big $$$ risks over life of contract.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.

    In Response to Re: No contract yet for Ortiz.:
    [QUOTE]Thanks for all the comments. Papi was complaining to Weei today, that no offer from the sox has yet been made.
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    Because of your well-known dislike of Ortiz, you're credibility with this post is rather low.

    Complaining? Really?

    Or was it simply he was being interviewed and they asked him a question and he answered it honestly. If no contract has been offered, what else is he going to say. It's hardly complaining.
     

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