No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years


    2010 - No playoffs


    2011 - No playoffs


    2012 - No playoffs


    2013 - Championship


    2014 - No playoffs


    This team isn't that good, nor have they been for a fairly long stretch.


    The world series victory was an aberration spurned on by an event that transcended baseball and brought them together for a cause bigger than the team. Motivation like that is rare, and we all saw how the team rallied together, and around this event.


    The existing core from the past 5 years: Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester, Lackey...that's about it. All are over, or close to being past their primes. None of the 4 is going to produce to the level they have in the past. 


    If/when the Sox win another title...these players will be role players/veteran leadership...IF they are still around. 


    I can't stress enough how it's past time to move on from what the Sox were, and start to forge a new identity.


    It's a GOOD thing to let a group of kids play together in the Bigs, and let them sort of figure it out. Some will fail, others will surpass expectations...but for this team, at this point...it's the undeniably right way to go.


    To further that...I really believe in TRADING Lester. This team is not set up to win within the next few seasons. They are far more than "1 piece" away. They need pitching. They need to figure out their LONG TERM CATCHING SOLUTION (this was my biggest gripe in letting Salty walk, 3 seasons, 3 different starting Cs is a stupid plan, and that's exactly what the Sox willingly did). They need to button down some OF starters: JBJ? Holt? Middlebrooks? Betts? Who is going to be a true starter, role player, cast off? Who, T F, is playing SS? What IS Xander? How long can Pedroia last? Who's going to take over at 1B? Is there any kind of post-Papi plan (middle of the order bat)?


    So many questions that aren't ready to be answered. I don't see how paying a guy at the top of the pitching market is any kind of help. Has having this "ace" pitch so well this year made even the slightest difference? Is that going to change next year? 2016? I don't see it. Sure, if 6 of these kids all arrive, and perform....sure, it will then be pretty good to have Lester....maybe. But if 6 of these kids arrive, it's just as believable some of the young arm arrive to Lester's level. Or close to it.


    I look around the league to teams with "aces" and see no definitive link to winning. I look at the teams with the highest paid pitchers across MLB, and it seems to point to even LESS winning.


    Prove to me teams NEED an established "ace" going into the season to win.


    Prove to me paying 30+ year old pitchers is ever a good idea. 


    I've looked, and found little evidence to support either line of thinking, and yet, people still spout "we need an ace....who's going to replace him....that's the cost of business..." All mindless, unintelligent ramblings. I put the list of the 12 highest paid pitchers in another thread...and everyone just ignored the painful facts that paying a guy 20_ million doesn't work, also that paying guys over 30 doesn't work, and people just spout the same nonsense. 


    Don't just say "that's how it is"....tell me WHY it should remain that way. PEDs are getting out of the game, guys don't produce into their late 30s with regular frequency anymore, but people seem to still be working off of the assumption they will. Maybe Ortiz has blinded people to the reality of MLB? He's, by far, the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    World Series champs almost always have at least one ace pitcher who carries them through the playoffs.  History definitely supports that.  Red Sox history: 2004 - Schilling 2007 - Beckett 2013 - Lester. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    World Series champs almost always have at least one ace pitcher who carries them through the playoffs.  History definitely supports that.  Red Sox history: 2004 - Schilling 2007 - Beckett 2013 - Lester. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Beckett and Lester were in their late-20s when they won, I agree completely. 

    Schilling is an uncommon bird, and did it well into his 30s.

    2/3rds of them were Aces in their late 20s, and Schilling had Pedro, arguably the best pitcher of the modern era, at 32 pitching in front of him. Ok, so if you can manage to end up with 2 of the most renowned pitchers of their times, both in their early-to-mid 30s, ok, yeah, that can work too. Lester hasn't ever been what Schilling or Pedro were at comparable ages, and someone like Verlander isn't coming any time soon. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    2010 - No playoffs

     

    2011 - No playoffs

     

    2012 - No playoffs

     

    2013 - Championship

     

    2014 - No playoffs

     

    This team isn't that good, nor have they been for a fairly long stretch.

     

    The world series victory was an aberration spurned on by an event that transcended baseball and brought them together for a cause bigger than the team. Motivation like that is rare, and we all saw how the team rallied together, and around this event.

     

    The existing core from the past 5 years: Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester, Lackey...that's about it. All are over, or close to being past their primes. None of the 4 is going to produce to the level they have in the past. 

     

    If/when the Sox win another title...these players will be role players/veteran leadership...IF they are still around. 

     

    I can't stress enough how it's past time to move on from what the Sox were, and start to forge a new identity.

     

    It's a GOOD thing to let a group of kids play together in the Bigs, and let them sort of figure it out. Some will fail, others will surpass expectations...but for this team, at this point...it's the undeniably right way to go.

     

    To further that...I really believe in TRADING Lester. This team is not set up to win within the next few seasons. They are far more than "1 piece" away. They need pitching. They need to figure out their LONG TERM CATCHING SOLUTION (this was my biggest gripe in letting Salty walk, 3 seasons, 3 different starting Cs is a stupid plan, and that's exactly what the Sox willingly did). They need to button down some OF starters: JBJ? Holt? Middlebrooks? Betts? Who is going to be a true starter, role player, cast off? Who, T F, is playing SS? What IS Xander? How long can Pedroia last? Who's going to take over at 1B? Is there any kind of post-Papi plan (middle of the order bat)?

     

    So many questions that aren't ready to be answered. I don't see how paying a guy at the top of the pitching market is any kind of help. Has having this "ace" pitch so well this year made even the slightest difference? Is that going to change next year? 2016? I don't see it. Sure, if 6 of these kids all arrive, and perform....sure, it will then be pretty good to have Lester....maybe. But if 6 of these kids arrive, it's just as believable some of the young arm arrive to Lester's level. Or close to it.

     

    I look around the league to teams with "aces" and see no definitive link to winning. I look at the teams with the highest paid pitchers across MLB, and it seems to point to even LESS winning.

     

    Prove to me teams NEED an established "ace" going into the season to win.

     

    Prove to me paying 30+ year old pitchers is ever a good idea. 

     

    I've looked, and found little evidence to support either line of thinking, and yet, people still spout "we need an ace....who's going to replace him....that's the cost of business..." All mindless, unintelligent ramblings. I put the list of the 12 highest paid pitchers in another thread...and everyone just ignored the painful facts that paying a guy 20_ million doesn't work, also that paying guys over 30 doesn't work, and people just spout the same nonsense. 

     

    Don't just say "that's how it is"....tell me WHY it should remain that way. PEDs are getting out of the game, guys don't produce into their late 30s with regular frequency anymore, but people seem to still be working off of the assumption they will. Maybe Ortiz has blinded people to the reality of MLB? He's, by far, the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

    [/QUOTE]

    I KEEP REPEATING MYSELF.....The sox were bad coming out of spring training.Everyone complains and only a handful seen this coming. Listen to the Media and ownership draws you into believing everything is good . They fooled you !!! Don't you people get it.? I guess not.  I can't understand why most are shocked that this team feel apart. They did not fall apart. This team stunk from day one in Spring training. Last years team was a good team and also very lucky. Did you for one minute think Sox were going to have luck again to carry them all the way? They added junk to the 2014 team and HERE WE GO WITH ANOTHER SHOT TO WIN IT !!!   They fooled you, filled the old ball park and all was well. So  you people are complaining and crying what happened and how can we fix it? Well from  OWNERSHIP  they did fix it . Selling tickets and once again over loading Fenway with believers of another world series run.  You were fooled , What part of fooled don't you understand? Glad I wasn't one ....

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    1-On one hand, paying SPs until age 35 is pretty risky.  OTOH, what else do you do with the money?  Our payroll commitment is $78M next year, and $15M for 2016.  Rookies are always underpaid, so even if Lester winds up overpaid, we can still afford it.

    2-I'm a big fan of a good farm, but you still need veteran leadership.

    3-And it is not like the old when you could bring up 6-8 kids and have a good team for 10-12 years.  For a team like ours, you have to be looking at winning every year.

    4-And your desire to go with the kids, and also wanting to sign Salty to a l/t contract, are contradictory.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    I KEEP REPEATING MYSELF.....The sox were bad coming out of spring training.Everyone complains and only a handful seen this coming. Listen to the Media and ownership draws you into believing everything is good . They fooled you !!! Don't you people get it.? I guess not. I can't understand why most are shocked that this team feel apart

    You might want to explain how a team that is largely identical to the best team in BB in 2013, suddenly turned bad.  Certainly we figured to be worse, which is usually the case with teams that won the WS, but how much worse were we supposed to be replacing Ells, Salty, and Drew with JBJ, AJP, and Bogaerts?

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]1-On one hand, paying SPs until age 35 is pretty risky.  OTOH, what else do you do with the money?  Our payroll commitment is $78M next year, and $15M for 2016.  Rookies are always underpaid, so even if Lester winds up overpaid, we can still afford it.

    2-I'm a big fan of a good farm, but you still need veteran leadership.

    3-And it is not like the old when you could bring up 6-8 kids and have a good team for 10-12 years.  For a team like ours, you have to be looking at winning every year.

    4-And your desire to go with the kids, and also wanting to sign Salty to a l/t contract, are contradictory.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    1) Having money shouldn't equate NEEDING to spend it. That thinking led to Crawford. Being able to spend money is nice...I NEVER, as a fan, feel like they should just pile money until they hit some minimum payroll number. They did that coming into 2013 and I RIPPED them for it...and they got away with it because of outside circumstance.

    2) Agreed. That good leadership could be Pedroia, Lackey and Ortiz. You just need a few solid ones, not a lot.

    3) I agree with looking at winning every year. Expecting it, however, is a different story. Feeling ENTITLED to it, which I believe a lot of fans have gotten to that point, is disgusting. Sometimes you have to take a step back, and Sox have not been willing to do this since Theo tried in 2010, and the fans and media's heads all fking exploded when he said "bridge".

    4) Don't agree. Satly's contract, as it sits, is easily movable. He was a clubhouse leader, community giver, and had earned the trust and respect of the pitching staff. Mia is currently very happy to have him if you read any articles. He could've held down the position all year and not necessitate a mid-season purge. It may seem contradictory on the surface, but the devil is in the details.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Salty has been in a HORRENDOUS slump for 2 months now.  I would not want to be trying to trade him right now with $17 million left on his contract.   

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.

    [/QUOTE]

    I would not presume to speak for 95% of baseball fans, but I do not think that no playoffs for four of five years is a particularly good track record for a high budget sports team, despite the one championship year.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    2010 - No playoffs

     

    2011 - No playoffs

     

    2012 - No playoffs

     

    2013 - Championship

     

    2014 - No playoffs

     

    This team isn't that good, nor have they been for a fairly long stretch.

     

    The world series victory was an aberration spurned on by an event that transcended baseball and brought them together for a cause bigger than the team. Motivation like that is rare, and we all saw how the team rallied together, and around this event.

     

    The existing core from the past 5 years: Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester, Lackey...that's about it. All are over, or close to being past their primes. None of the 4 is going to produce to the level they have in the past. 

     

    If/when the Sox win another title...these players will be role players/veteran leadership...IF they are still around. 

     

    I can't stress enough how it's past time to move on from what the Sox were, and start to forge a new identity.

     

    It's a GOOD thing to let a group of kids play together in the Bigs, and let them sort of figure it out. Some will fail, others will surpass expectations...but for this team, at this point...it's the undeniably right way to go.

     

    To further that...I really believe in TRADING Lester. This team is not set up to win within the next few seasons. They are far more than "1 piece" away. They need pitching. They need to figure out their LONG TERM CATCHING SOLUTION (this was my biggest gripe in letting Salty walk, 3 seasons, 3 different starting Cs is a stupid plan, and that's exactly what the Sox willingly did). They need to button down some OF starters: JBJ? Holt? Middlebrooks? Betts? Who is going to be a true starter, role player, cast off? Who, T F, is playing SS? What IS Xander? How long can Pedroia last? Who's going to take over at 1B? Is there any kind of post-Papi plan (middle of the order bat)?

     

    So many questions that aren't ready to be answered. I don't see how paying a guy at the top of the pitching market is any kind of help. Has having this "ace" pitch so well this year made even the slightest difference? Is that going to change next year? 2016? I don't see it. Sure, if 6 of these kids all arrive, and perform....sure, it will then be pretty good to have Lester....maybe. But if 6 of these kids arrive, it's just as believable some of the young arm arrive to Lester's level. Or close to it.

     

    I look around the league to teams with "aces" and see no definitive link to winning. I look at the teams with the highest paid pitchers across MLB, and it seems to point to even LESS winning.

     

    Prove to me teams NEED an established "ace" going into the season to win.

     

    Prove to me paying 30+ year old pitchers is ever a good idea. 

     

    I've looked, and found little evidence to support either line of thinking, and yet, people still spout "we need an ace....who's going to replace him....that's the cost of business..." All mindless, unintelligent ramblings. I put the list of the 12 highest paid pitchers in another thread...and everyone just ignored the painful facts that paying a guy 20_ million doesn't work, also that paying guys over 30 doesn't work, and people just spout the same nonsense. 

     

    Don't just say "that's how it is"....tell me WHY it should remain that way. PEDs are getting out of the game, guys don't produce into their late 30s with regular frequency anymore, but people seem to still be working off of the assumption they will. Maybe Ortiz has blinded people to the reality of MLB? He's, by far, the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

    [/QUOTE]

    Excellent post DRAGON; You've stated the weaknesses of this franchise better than I ever could. This should bring the APOLOGISTS flying. 

    "But gee, the SOX have won 3 WS in 11 years. They have the right to stink once in a while."

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:


    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.




    You just didn't pull that number out of your ---, did you?  What you're saying is that 95%(I think it's lower) of all SOX fans would accept 4 years of a stinky team like this if there is one Championship in the 5th year.


    Please include me in the 5%(I think it's higher.) 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Well, I guess it's up to each individual fan to decide what they 'accept' or not.

    To those who 'don't accept' it, what exactly are you going to do about it?

    Seems to me the only thing the fans who 'don't accept' it can do is come in here and do a lot of complaining.  If that works for them as a productive use of time, that's a good thing, I guess.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Trading Lester, is fine I guess. Don't expect the return to be fantastic. He's a straight out rental, where Trading team, cannot give a QO to him. You think he's going to get you a Tavares, or even a Piscotty, forget it. High A, maybe even Double AA is more realistic.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, I guess it's up to each individual fan to decide what they 'accept' or not.

    To those who 'don't accept' it, what exactly are you going to do about it?

    Seems to me the only thing the fans who 'don't accept' it can do is come in here and do a lot of complaining.  If that works for them as a productive use of time, that's a good thing, I guess.

    [/QUOTE]


    Stomping their feel and holding their breath worked when they were 5.

    Why not now?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Workman, RDLR, Ranaudo, Barnes, Webster. Any of these guys ready to step in and take Lester's place? Don't include Lackey, or Buchholz.
    Lets look at Free Agents, Scherzer, and Shields, are the 2 big names coming out. Do the Sox save money and years by signing them? Scherzer is going to want more, Sheilds is 33.


     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.

    [/QUOTE]

    I would not presume to speak for 95% of baseball fans, but I do not think that no playoffs for four of five years is a particularly good track record for a high budget sports team, despite the one championship year.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Then, I daresay, they are fools without the most basic grasp of arithmetic.  Each of the 30 teams has a theoretical chance of winning the championship in any given year of 3.33%.  Even among just the wealthy teams and well-run poor teams in any given year at least 5-10 teams have a legitimate chance to win the championship.  In the 14 seasons since the end of the 90s Yankee dynasty 9 different teams have won the championship (though we have won 3 despite the worthlessness of Theo, Ben, Terry and Manager John).

    But 1 out of 5 isn't good enough?  I'm sorry, I think that is absurdly demanding, unrealistic and colloquial. 

    If you want to argue that making the playoffs but not winning it all has much value we will have to agree to disagree.  I think it has some value, but pales in comparison to the value of being the champion.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:


    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:


    [QUOTE]


     


     


    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.


     


     




    You just didn't pull that number out of your ---, did you?  What you're saying is that 95%(I think it's lower) of all SOX fans would accept 4 years of a stinky team like this if there is one Championship in the 5th year.


    Please include me in the 5%(I think it's higher.) 


    [/QUOTE]


    Hi Bogie.  Obviously that number didn't come from extensive research!  Frankly, I'd accept 4 last place finishes and 1 championship over 5 years...not even including the draft pick benefit.


    But I like baseball and love the Red Sox so what do I know?  ;-)

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Yanks are 3.5 games out of Final WC, they have a battered staff. How would they look at this point if Lester was there?  Lester hits Free Agency we'll see him, but it will be in a Yankee uniform. Yanks are smart, they kill 2 birds with one stone, hurt their rivals, and get a solid Lefthanded ace in Yankee Stadium.
    Sox are making a mistake by lollygagging.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, I guess it's up to each individual fan to decide what they 'accept' or not.

    To those who 'don't accept' it, what exactly are you going to do about it?

    Seems to me the only thing the fans who 'don't accept' it can do is come in here and do a lot of complaining.  If that works for them as a productive use of time, that's a good thing, I guess.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, they can stop going to games or watching them on TV. Fans have power if they want to use it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, I guess it's up to each individual fan to decide what they 'accept' or not.

    To those who 'don't accept' it, what exactly are you going to do about it?

    Seems to me the only thing the fans who 'don't accept' it can do is come in here and do a lot of complaining.  If that works for them as a productive use of time, that's a good thing, I guess.

    [/QUOTE]


    Stomping their feel and holding their breath worked when they were 5.

    Why not now?

    [/QUOTE]

    Gee, you're so much better than the rest of us. Please don't ever change.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:


    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:


    [QUOTE]


     


     


    Would anyone here accept 4 non-playoff seasons and 1 championship from 2015-2019?  I would, as would 95% of all baseball fans.  All of the 5% being members of this board, of course.


     


     




    You just didn't pull that number out of your ---, did you?  What you're saying is that 95%(I think it's lower) of all SOX fans would accept 4 years of a stinky team like this if there is one Championship in the 5th year.


    Please include me in the 5%(I think it's higher.) 


    [/QUOTE]


    Hi Bogie.  Obviously that number didn't come from extensive research!  Frankly, I'd accept 4 last place finishes and 1 championship over 5 years...not even including the draft pick benefit.


    But like baseball and love the Red Sox so what do I know?  ;-)


    [/QUOTE]

    I love the SOX also, but there's no reason they can't be contenders every year and still win it all once in a while. I mean this isn't a small market team, although, recently, it looks like one.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: No Playoffs 4 out of the 5 Past Years

    Good Lord!


    First we have to listen to Yankee fans chanting "84 years" and now we have to listen to ONE OF OUR OWN fans putting the worst possible spin on the past ten years for the Red Sox??


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


    And I have never posted here under any other names.

     

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