Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jh13. Show jh13's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : I changed my mind...I am with Geo on this now...it was clear that are starting pitching was the issue...Francona the moron or as my friends call him...Francoma should have put Papelbon and Bard in the rotation in September...I know they are not stretched out...I am just asking for 6 innings and which ever one is not starting could come in for relief and close out the last three innings. Keep in mind I have been frozen since the year 1908 and have been unfrozen for just over a month. The way Francona managed last year was just awful. Awful!!!!!! :-0
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    the fact that you think a guy whose is used to pitching 1 inning can just come in and pitch 6 innings with the same effectivness indicates that you should just refreeze yourself.  And when has Paps ever pitched 3 innings?  Getting him to pitch 2 innings was a chore in itself.
     
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    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Wow, Bard really got rocked today. 7 earned runs. Hopefully it was just a bad outing.
    Posted by jrh1194[/QUOTE]

    he comes in an inning late, throws a couple of pitches, has to sit through a rain delay...then gets rocked.  More than likely his rhythm was completely thrown off.
     
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    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : he comes in an inning late, throws a couple of pitches, has to sit through a rain delay...then gets rocked.  More than likely his rhythm was completely thrown off.
    Posted by jh13[/QUOTE]


    I hope that you are right.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bruinsGENIUS. Show bruinsGENIUS's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I still like Bard in the pen. Maybe they are grooming him as an extra or emergency 5th starter to eat some innings, but I think we comes outta that bullpen and throws his best stuff he's developing into an almost guaranteed 8th inning guy.

    If the experiment doesn't work as a starter, back to the pen he goes i believe where he belongs.

    Jenks should be traded/waived.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from lifelongsoxdawg. Show lifelongsoxdawg's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...


    Beantowne,

    You missed my most important point. Bard does not posses the necessary MENTAL MAKE-UP required to succeed as a starter. He even as much admits it (if you read between the lines) in some of his interviews.

    In regards to Cliff Lee, all major league pitchers tweak their mechanics now and then. Sit down and actually watch Lee pitch a game and you will notice just how focused he is on every pitch and the level of confidence he exudes. Bard is no where near that level. So, yes, Lee is a perfect example of what I am talking about or if you prefer Pedro Matrinez was even a better example. Bard is able to maintain his focus for perhaps an inning or two but beyond that he becomes mentally challenged to maintain that focus. Look at all the walks he has given up when he has been streatched as a starter.


    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : Cliff Lee also had to spend an entire season (2007) in AAA to fix his mechenics and work on his secondary pitches (change), after having some success with the Indians. Not sure why you used him as an example? To suggest that Bard lacks the ability to stay in the moment and maintian his mechenics is merely speculative on your part. In that he's been a 1 innings guy since arriving in Boston. What is real is that he does need to re-learn how to pace himself so that he's able to maintain his stuff over 100 pitch outings. A process that can only happen while he's on the mound and that can't happen if he's relagated back to the pen. During that process he'll needs to continue to develop and refine his command and use of his slider, cutter & change to keep hitters honest the 2nd and 3rd time through the order. Espcially lefthanded hitters. It was his inability to command the zone with his secondary pitches along with his 100 MPH fastball that was at the heart of why he was converted to the pen while in Pawtucket. I'd say given the results, it was a good move. Since arriving and taking on the primary set-up role. He's worked hard on the side and has developed a pretty good change, though he could stand to take a little more off of it and has also learned to harness his stuff pitching from the stretch... From where I sit the kid has the stuff to be a top of the rotation talant. I think it's worth the gamble to give him every opportunity to stretch himself out and give it a go. Those that have already concluded that he'll fail are entittled to that opin. In the end he may well struggle, but I don't see any harm in letting him try... In my mind you can't fail, until you stop trying. I've never read anything that suggest that the kid doesn't show up for work everyday and give 100%. He and his coaches, all, I'm sure have mapped out the road ahead and as long as he's doing his part. Valentine, McClure and Cherington will evaluate him based on his progression and in the end he'll either be part of the rotation or take his place in the backend of the pen. Only those in the know, have the answers to the question. Everyone else is merely basing their opins of whether he will, or won't based on their own agenda....
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Against Toronto, Bard was helped by batters swinging at bad high fastballs, twice on ball four.  He throws too many pitches. ( His nine-pitch inning was unusual. )
    Almost by
     definition, strike-out pitchers throw a lot of pitches, but the best of these pitchers often retire the batter on 1 and 2 counts. Bard needs to throw more first-pitch strikes. Even with his stuff, he courts trouble if he's behind in the count. 
    Unless I missed something, he did not throw a single change-up in this outing. Perhaps McClure and Valentine have him working solely on the fastball and the breaking ball. But one would think that ST is the time to work on a third pitch, one that he will need as a starter to keep batters from sitting on his fastball. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    He was rocked yesterday and now has a 7.00 + ERA in ST. I'm not sure I like him as a Starter either. Too bad, we need him to succeed desperately.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]He was rocked yesterday and now has a 7.00 + ERA in ST. I'm not sure I like him as a Starter either. Too bad, we need him to succeed desperately.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor[/QUOTE]

    I'd hardly say he got rocked yesterday.  He had 1 bad inning and then settled in to retire the last 8 batters he faced.  If it were the regular season he goes 6-7 innings with 3 ER, that's a quality start.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]  Unless I missed something, he did not throw a single change-up in this outing. Perhaps McClure and Valentine have him working solely on the fastball and the breaking ball. But one would think that ST is the time to work on a third pitch, one that he will need as a starter to keep batters from sitting on his fastball. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    You did miss something (although not much).  He through his 1 and only changeup of the game in the 5th inning.  Bobby V was very unhappy that Bard wasn't throwing it more.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]He was rocked yesterday and now has a 7.00 + ERA in ST. I'm not sure I like him as a Starter either. Too bad, we need him to succeed desperately.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor[/QUOTE]

    I, myself, am not sure.  I mean, yes, of course, we would all love it if Bard turned into a stude starter.  But, given that there would likely be a learning/performance curve due to the completely different work load and demands of starting, I might as soon go with (matsuzaka), Padilla, Doubront, Cook, or Aceves in the 4,5 and keep Bard in the pen.  A back end of Bard/Melancon/Bailey will be making games mighty short.  I really don't know where I would prefer Daniel.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I am also not sure yet where I might like to put Bard, but his starts so far this spring season have yielded Wakefield's end-of-last-season type numbers.

    Bard will likely get better and better (at least his endurance will improve), but if he doesn't we cannot have a guy with a 6+ ERA anywhere near the starting rotation.

    He is working on "other" pitches in every outing so far, but it is probably time to see him to pitch in "game mode" for his last three starts of spring training to see what he is likely to look like in April.

    Outisde of the end of last season, he has shined out of the bullpen for two full years.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : You did miss something (although not much).  He through his 1 and only changeup of the game in the 5th inning.  Bobby V was very unhappy that Bard wasn't throwing it more.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]
    Thanks. Valentine is right. He's also the boss. Better listen to the boss, Andrew.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : I, myself, am not sure.  I mean, yes, of course, we would all love it if Bard turned into a stude starter.  But, given that there would likely be a learning/performance curve due to the completely different work load and demands of starting, I might as soon go with (matsuzaka), Padilla, Doubront, Cook, or Aceves in the 4,5 and keep Bard in the pen.  A back end of Bard/Melancon/Bailey will be making games mighty short.  I really don't know where I would prefer Daniel.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
     I agree.

    Personally, I would have given him a shot at closer, despite some hiccups in clutch situations the past two years, before giving him a shot at starter. Remember, there was a reason he was converted to a reliever in the first place when he was in the minors. He bombed and there were concerns whether he had the third pitch starters usually need.

    I'm rooting for him, but I have my doubts on whether he'll be anything more than a mediocre starter.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    only an managerial idiot would see his pitching staff crumble during the season and refuse to move his hardest throwing and youngest pitcher into the rotation to help save the team from disaster....this is why francona is out of a job....weakness + inflexibility = 2011 Red Sox
     
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    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    He will be back in the pen within days...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]only an managerial idiot would see his pitching staff crumble during the season and refuse to move his hardest throwing and youngest pitcher into the rotation to help save the team from disaster....this is why francona is out of a job....weakness + inflexibility = 2011 Red Sox
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]
     G.  Now you know, outside of the chicken and beer stuff, I respect and appreciate what you bring to the board.  But, this is ridiculous.  You express indignant outrage at how stupid a manager can be ... for not moving his set-up guy into the rotation ... with the season in the balance.  Um.  Sorry man.  That is not intelligent baseball thought.  I know you want to trash Francona.  Butm upon reflection you should trash yourself for this silliness.  First, ask yourself if something like that has ever been done in the history of the game.  Then, once you have reached the conclusion that the answer is no, ask yourself why.  Converting a short relief guy to a starter in the middle of the season is a disaster waiting to happen.  Not the piece of cake you have said it would be.  I agree that there were ways in which the 2011 Sox could have shown more creative flexibility.  this, without a doubt, is not one of them.  If you are going to trash Francona, you should be sure your ideas are better than his.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]only an managerial idiot would see his pitching staff crumble during the season and refuse to move his hardest throwing and youngest pitcher into the rotation to help save the team from disaster....this is why francona is out of a job....weakness + inflexibility = 2011 Red Sox
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    and when was Bard going to have the time to stretch out, G??
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... :  G.  Now you know, outside of the chicken and beer stuff, I respect and appreciate what you bring to the board.  But, this is ridiculous.  You express indignant outrage at how stupid a manager can be ... for not moving his set-up guy into the rotation ... with the season in the balance.  Um.  Sorry man.  That is not intelligent baseball thought.  I know you want to trash Francona.  Butm upon reflection you should trash yourself for this silliness.  First, ask yourself if something like that has ever been done in the history of the game.  Then, once you have reached the conclusion that the answer is no, ask yourself why.  Converting a short relief guy to a starter in the middle of the season is a disaster waiting to happen.  Not the piece of cake you have said it would be.  I agree that there were ways in which the 2011 Sox could have shown more creative flexibility.  this, without a doubt, is not one of them.  If you are going to trash Francona, you should be sure your ideas are better than his.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    sorry space...francona put Tarzawa in against the Yanks in yankee stadium a few years back in a crucial series and let him get thrashed...he was not ready, had not even PITCHED at the major league level...was that silly? No one is saying Bard had to go 9 innings the first start - but to tell him he was going to start and build up his innings was a much better option than wake, miller, or the three stooges - whatever was being thrown up there after clay/dice went down
     
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    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : sorry space...francona put Tarzawa in against the Yanks in yankee stadium a few years back in a crucial series and let him get thrashed...he was not ready, had not even PITCHED at the major league level...was that silly? No one is saying Bard had to go 9 innings the first start - but to tell him he was going to start and build up his innings was a much better option than wake, miller, or the three stooges - whatever was being thrown up there after clay/dice went down
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    The thing that you are not giving any credence, which you should, is the stretch out part.  this ain't video games (though even most baseball games are now sophisticated enough that if D. Bard pitched more than 2 innings, he would get shelled, a proper reflection of the real game).  And, lets say dumb idiot stupid Francona took Georom4's sage advice and let Bard stretch out on the job.  We are already automatically short a horse bullpen arm, and you want him to go what 3,4 innings for a few times out while he gets used to the work load?  What do you think that does to the pen?  

    And you think that a guy used to rearing back throwing as hard as he can with two pitches for maybe 20 a night is going to overnight, or in the course of a month, midstream, figure out how to calibrate his velocity and build his stamina to pitch 80-100 pitches and work in/develop a 3rd pitch?  

    If Bard gets the nod last year as you suggest, a. he gets rocked on a regular basis b. the bullpen is totally shot.  


     
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    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : sorry space...francona put Tarzawa in against the Yanks in yankee stadium a few years back in a crucial series and let him get thrashed...he was not ready, had not even PITCHED at the major league level...was that silly? No one is saying Bard had to go 9 innings the first start - but to tell him he was going to start and build up his innings was a much better option than wake, miller, or the three stooges - whatever was being thrown up there after clay/dice went down
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    geo, man, you're going solely on memory here and memory is often faulty.  Tazawa's first appearance in '09 was against the Yankees but it was in the 14th inning.  And in his first start against the Yankees he shut them out for 6 innings.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : geo, man, you're going solely on memory here and memory is often faulty.  Tazawa's first appearance in '09 was against the Yankees but it was in the 14th inning.  And in his first start against the Yankees he shut them out for 6 innings.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    man, i got to check that out...

    his first was in extra innings but i thought he was rocked by the yanks when he started against him....either way the point is that Bard has had much more experience and success than junichi T had in 2009 yet he was too valuable as a one inning set up guy? this i repeat is why francona is jobless...and clueless....any decent manager would have taken either aceves or bard and told them they were needed to start....
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    This team could have a good bullpen if they put Bard back as the closer and use Bailey or Meancon as the setup guys and stop this starting thing with this guy. They would have to trade fir a starter or sign Oswalt. Bailey is not giving me a warm and fuzzy at all this spring, He is scarring me and I am worrying if Cafardo was right that this team will miss Papelbon who was American League Battle Tested.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In that game he had to go in because it was extra innings and the Red Sox were out of pitchers. Tazawa pitched well in a game he started against the Yankees. n response to "Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : sorry space...francona put Tarzawa in against the Yanks in yankee stadium a few years back in a crucial series and let him get thrashed...he was not ready, had not even PITCHED at the major league level...was that silly? No one is saying Bard had to go 9 innings the first start - but to tell him he was going to start and build up his innings was a much better option than wake, miller, or the three stooges - whatever was being thrown up there after clay/dice went down Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]
     

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