Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I am with moon on this one.....I love him as our 8th inning guy. The conventional wisdom is that the Sox are not going to put two converted relievers in the rotation....not with the other candidates for the 5th spot....and the innings limit question. So the point shouldnt be whether we like Bard as A Starter but rather are we a stronger team with Bard in the rotation and Aceves in the pen or Aceves in the rotation and Bard in the pen....personally I go with the latter.....If Bard doesnt succeed as a starter it will be tough to move him back to the pen this year....if Aceves struggles or if we get more from other guys, his move back to the pen would be much more seemless.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]I am sure of one thing: I like him as a set-up man.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    79 Holds the last three years. I dont like Holds, but they are very important. His value as set-up is more valuable to the team than him starting...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In response to "Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...": [QUOTE]I am with moon on this one.....I love him as our 8th inning guy. The conventional wisdom is that the Sox are not going to put two converted relievers in the rotation....not with the other candidates for the 5th spot....and the innings limit question. So the point shouldnt be whether we like Bard as A Starter but rather are we a stronger team with Bard in the rotation and Aceves in the pen or Aceves in the rotation and Bard in the pen....personally I go with the latter.....If Bard doesnt succeed as a starter it will be tough to move him back to the pen this year....if Aceves struggles or if we get more from other guys, his move back to the pen would be much more seemless. Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE] Good post Tom-nev....but it's not that simple. We all liked Bard as a late inning guy, but he asked for an opportunity to start, he's earned that opportunity, and as an organization, you do not deny him that opportunity. If it fails, it's a heck of a lot easier to transition back to the pen and if it succeeds, you have a 4th starter with ace like stuff...
     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Looked real sharp against the RH hitters but was trying to be to fine against LHBs. He shouldn't be afraid to use the same arsenal aganst both.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mt200. Show Mt200's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Looked real sharp against the RH hitters but was trying to be to fine against LHBs. He shouldn't be afraid to use the same arsenal aganst both.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]
    Good point. He gets more lefties out with his fastball than the worst pitch, a changeup that isn't very consistent.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Geo would have made a great manager last year.

    He'd have announced Bard as his starter, then been talked out of it by a poster on BDC, and switched to Aceves right before gametime. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]I am with moon on this one.....I love him as our 8th inning guy. The conventional wisdom is that the Sox are not going to put two converted relievers in the rotation....not with the other candidates for the 5th spot....and the innings limit question. So the point shouldnt be whether we like Bard as A Starter but rather are we a stronger team with Bard in the rotation and Aceves in the pen or Aceves in the rotation and Bard in the pen....personally I go with the latter.....If Bard doesnt succeed as a starter it will be tough to move him back to the pen this year....if Aceves struggles or if we get more from other guys, his move back to the pen would be much more seemless.
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    Tom,
    I think you're missing the point. Bard's stuff is that of a top of the rotation talant. So the upside in moving him into the rotation is greater than that of Aceves. Who while he does have the ability to be a solid back of the rotation starter. Does not possess the stuff to be a top of the rotation talant...One could argue that his ability to pitch multiple innings out of the pen is where his true value lies.

    As for Bard, time will tell, but if he can indeed make the transistion this year and have success. Looking to 2013 and beyond. Paired with Lester, Beckett & Buccholz we could have a pretty stout starting staff. Add a healthy Lackey into the equasion next year as our 5th and we could be among the best staffs in the game in 2013 through 2015.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    A #4 starter is a MUCH harder position to fill than a set-up man.  I love Bard as a set-up man, but we have a bunch of pitchers who can step up and fill this role.  And if that doesnt work, its not that hard to go external for a set-up man. 

    We dont have many options for the #4 starter role, and its hard to get acquire a decent starter during the season without over-paying.

    Bard gets the nod for this reason alone.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Maybe we can get one of the Statistical research guys to delve into it....though maybe Beane is right and it is wrong to view Bard as a 4th starter, but....on average how many net wins does a team get or expect to get out of their 4th starter...I would bet if that number was higher than 7, they would be thrilled.....12-5....14-7....estatic. Compare that to how many wins are affected(W-L, Holds) by a top of the league type 8th inning versus a middle of the road setup guy.....and I am niot sure that it isnt tougher to fill the setup role. As for whether we should give Bard an opportunity to start because he asked for it.....not sure I buy that either......a team should be manged on what is best for the team...this year we happen to have a need at starter, so we can give him the opportunity....if Lackey and Dice K had been healthy....we probably wouldnt be giving him the opportunity....so if Doubront(out of options) proves he can start and Aceves out pitches Bard(he has so far), that despite what Bard might want we need to do what is best for the Red Sox......though in the end, despite my meaningless opinions, I think he will be Starting the 4th game of the season. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Bard had a shutout stretch of over 2 months last year.  In 25 games, 26.1 innings, he gave up 11 hits and 6 walks and struck out 25.  I think you have to give a guy with that kind of lights-out ability the opportunity to start.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... : Bard could easily become another Justin Masterson, or a bust like Joba or Hughes as a starter.  Either way I hope it doesn't screw up his mind set if he does return to the pen.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    JMO -

    Bard might very well face the mental and physical pitfalls that Joba did when he was converted. I think it is a risk and for anyone to expect something special from him this year is asking for a let down. I am not saying that he will not succeed, but crowing about him being a top of the rotation starter (Some have stated this) at this point is a bit much.

    Craze - where do you see Joba or Hughes being busts? That sure sounds like wishful thinking. Joba is ahead of schedule on his TJ surgery and reports on him are looking good. At some point, he will return as one of the best relief pitchers in the game after some time. Hughes was out of shape last year and paid the penalty. He has reported to camp in the best shape of his life and is looking very good so far.

    If we learned anything from last year is that putting expectations on players that are not bonafide superstars is not a good way to balance your hopes.
     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In response to "Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...": [QUOTE]Maybe we can get one of the Statistical research guys to delve into it....though maybe Beane is right and it is wrong to view Bard as a 4th starter, but....on average how many net wins does a team get or expect to get out of their 4th starter...I would bet if that number was higher than 7, they would be thrilled.....12-5....14-7....estatic. Compare that to how many wins are affected(W-L, Holds) by a top of the league type 8th inning versus a middle of the road setup guy.....and I am niot sure that it isnt tougher to fill the setup role. As for whether we should give Bard an opportunity to start because he asked for it.....not sure I buy that either......a team should be manged on what is best for the team...this year we happen to have a need at starter, so we can give him the opportunity....if Lackey and Dice K had been healthy....we probably wouldnt be giving him the opportunity....so if Doubront(out of options) proves he can start and Aceves out pitches Bard(he has so far), that despite what Bard might want we need to do what is best for the Red Sox......though in the end, despite my meaningless opinions, I think he will be Starting the 4th game of the season.  Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE] You make some good points, Tomnev, but I think that if both Lackey & Dice-k were healthy, he doesn't ask to start. He HAS stated that he would do what's best for the team, but there are two open rotation spots, so he asked for an opportunity. There's no reason not to give it to him. If it fails, he goes back to the bullpen knowing he was given a shot. Putting a player in a position that he doesn't want to be in doesn't usually work out too well in the long run. I think the Marlins may learn that the hard way with Hanley, as we did with Ells. Time will tell, but I think Bard is going to be just fine in the rotation.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In the early innings, the book on Bard will be simple: make him throw strikes. Even teams that don't put a great deal of stock in pitch counts will try to run his up, so that even if he's pitching fairly well he could be gone after five innings. Batters will be, or should be, especially guarded against chasing his stuff, including the slider, that bursts out of the strike zone. A live arm is hard to control. Batters will be told not "to help him out." What they do, of course, is another matter.
    There has been a lot of talk about how many innings Bard will be able to contribute, before "he gives way to Matsuzaka," or something like that. If he does not pitch efficiently, he could have an abbreviated season, no matter how well he's doing -- if the Sox have him on a limit. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]One thing I do know watching the game is, Francona is a mutch better sunflower seed spitter than Valentine.
    Posted by tbs2007[/QUOTE]
    It's way to early to tell. It is still spring training and everyone needs to shake off the rust.  I think he'll turn out to be an excellent sunflower seed spitter.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Francona choosing to cling to Bard as a set up guy when the team was crashing and burning miught have been the dumbest thing he ever did...and that is saying a lot...even if he has trouble lasting more than 6 innings, he is a huge improvement over Wakefield or anyone else they stuck with in 2011....
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    6 innings? Bard was having trouble lasting 1 inning last September!
    He ERA was 10.64 and his WHIP was 1.82.  The league had a .396 OBP against him last September!! 

    Bard was more problem than solution.  The Sox needed more viable arms, not to make every effort possible to burn out the ones they had.

    And why single out the starting pitcher who had the lowest ERA on the staff that month as the guy Bard needed to replace? 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from DeweyCBoston. Show DeweyCBoston's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]A couple of innings is too soon to tell. One thing I do know watching the game is, Francona is a mutch better sunflower seed spitter than Valentine.
    Posted by tbs2007[/QUOTE]

    well, ive seen clemens pitch and hes no roger clemens...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from lifelongsoxdawg. Show lifelongsoxdawg's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I respectfully have to disagree. He has demonstrated in the minors that he does not have the mental make up to be a starter, nor the physical endurance as evidence of late season performance last year. I noticed that he has these mental lapes when pitching several or more innings and he looses his focus. As a set up man that won't come into play. SET-UP man is his unique role and it is time for him to accept it. He is one of the best in that role.




    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Neh, too early to tell, but I think he'll be fine. Could be a big surprise actually....
    Posted by TheExaminer[/QUOTE]
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lifelongsoxdawg. Show lifelongsoxdawg's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Once again I disagree. At the major league level...baring any unknown injuries, a pitcher's mental make up plays a major role in his success. Usually, physical attributes and sound mechanics exist with pitchers at this level, however their ability to remain focused (mental make-up) on each pitch over the coarse of a game will determine wheather they succeed or fail. Bard is not able to do this. Take it from someone who knows (myself) that has been a professional pitching instructor for over 20 years. Cliff Lee is a good example of what I'm talking about. 


    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Hopefully Bard works out as a starter...a lot depends on what happens to his speed and how well he can throw strikes with his other pitchers which he really didn't have to use in the BP.  There are not many pitchers like Verlander who can throw 100mph a whole game.
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrh1194. Show jrh1194's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    Wow, Bard really got rocked today. 7 earned runs. Hopefully it was just a bad outing.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    ooops!

    Is it too late to amend my earlier post?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I am worried about this as well. Cherrington should just either sign Oswalt or trade for Lanan on Washington and stop wishing and praying.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...:
    [QUOTE]Once again I disagree. At the major league level...baring any unknown injuries, a pitcher's mental make up plays a major role in his success. Usually, physical attributes and sound mechanics exist with pitchers at this level, however their ability to remain focused (mental make-up) on each pitch over the coarse of a game will determine wheather they succeed or fail. Bard is not able to do this. Take it from someone who knows (myself) that has been a professional pitching instructor for over 20 years. Cliff Lee is a good example of what I'm talking about.  In Response to Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter... :
    Posted by lifelongsoxdawg[/QUOTE]

    Cliff Lee also had to spend an entire season (2007) in AAA to fix his mechenics and work on his secondary pitches (change), after having some success with the Indians. Not sure why you used him as an example?

    To suggest that Bard lacks the ability to stay in the moment and maintian his mechenics is merely speculative on your part. In that he's been a 1 innings guy since arriving in Boston. What is real is that he does need to re-learn how to pace himself so that he's able to maintain his stuff over 100 pitch outings. A process that can only happen while he's on the mound and that can't happen if he's relagated back to the pen. During that process he'll needs to continue to develop and refine his command and use of his slider, cutter & change to keep hitters honest the 2nd and 3rd time through the order. Espcially lefthanded hitters. It was his inability to command the zone with his secondary pitches along with his 100 MPH fastball that was at the heart of why he was converted to the pen while in Pawtucket. I'd say given the results, it was a good move. Since arriving and taking on the primary set-up role. He's worked hard on the side and has developed a pretty good change, though he could stand to take a little more off of it and has also learned to harness his stuff pitching from the stretch...

    From where I sit the kid has the stuff to be a top of the rotation talant. I think it's worth the gamble to give him every opportunity to stretch himself out and give it a go. Those that have already concluded that he'll fail are entittled to that opin. In the end he may well struggle, but I don't see any harm in letting him try...

    In my mind you can't fail, until you stop trying. I've never read anything that suggest that the kid doesn't show up for work everyday and give 100%. He and his coaches, all, I'm sure have mapped out the road ahead and as long as he's doing his part. Valentine, McClure and Cherington will evaluate him based on his progression and in the end he'll either be part of the rotation or take his place in the backend of the pen. Only those in the know, have the answers to the question. Everyone else is merely basing their opins of whether he will, or won't based on their own agenda....
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Not sure if I like Bard as a Starter...

    I've said before that trying to make Bard a starter right off the bat is a bad idea. He should be brought to that role gradually, as in spot starting occassionally, or using him in long relief until he can learn to pace himself.
     

Share