Not Upset with last nite's Loss

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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : A fair point.  If you or any other fan honestly feels that way, that Lester should not have gone back out there, you absolutely are entitled to your opinion.  My heartburn isn't with those who occasionally disagree with Francona.  Anyone could do that.  Heck, they may even be right.  My bias, of course, is that Francona knows his players a lot better than we do.  Wed night, for example, his bullpen did not have a full tank of gas with Bard and Pap off the the list.  The score was tied, which could have meant extra innings on a night when the Sox were playing their 20th game in 20 days.  And so on.  But I agree with you it's OK to disagree with that decison.  My heartburn is with those fans, and there are a number of them on this board, who emphatically believe that Francona never does anything right, that all wins are because of the players and that all losses are his fault.  That point of view is to me unsupportable.  And to me those fans are false fans, boo birds, or whatever.  The Sox, after a slow start, are having a great year so far despite pitching issues (Dice-K and Buchholz on the DL; Lackey was on it, also Lester; etc).  And still we have these "fans" rising up after every single loss telling the rest of us how stupid Francona is.   I don't buy that.  And guess what?  I'm entitled to that opinion as much as you are to yours.  And guess what else?  There is not a single sports commentator--for ESPN, SI, MLB.COM, Fox TV, sporting news, etc--anywhere who would agree with those Sox  fans who say Francona is too stupid to manage this team. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    You're right, Francona does many, many right things. My problem is that every other manager also does many. many right things. Like making out the lineup, playing a 1st baseman at 1st base, a 2nd baseman at 2nd base etc.
    We all know that all losses are not due to his lack of managing ability. Too many are due to his inept managing abilities. Many games that we complain about, might be losses anyway, but we want him to try to win winnable games, EVERY TIME! I refuse to accept not trying to win any game that is within reach.
    As far as the sports commentators are concerned, they look at Francona the same way you do. The team is winning consistently, so Francona must be doing a great job. Would you call the voters for Manager of The Year, sports commentators?? 7+ years of the Sox winning, and not even in the top 3 vote getters. Maybe , just maybe, the caliber of players has been better than the players available to any other manager in Sox history.
     In my opinion, most of the past managers of the Sox would be enjoying the kind of results that Francona enjoys if they had the talent to work with that he's had.
    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Sox of the last 7+ years would have experienced better, much better, results with a few of the past managers.
    He, himself, has said on more than one occasion that he's been very lucky to have the talent that the front office has provided him with.
    As far as him being stupid......as far as managing ability is concerned, he is not the brightest bulb on the circuit.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    OK Bosox1941, we've got it. We fully understand your feelings on this topic since you keep repeating them as if nobody is listening or else they don't comprehend. What is the need for you to keep parroting the same line repeatedly. It gets very boring. Why not try to have an opinion on some other topic of interest. Do you have any favorite players? Who has exceeded your expectations? Who has been a disappointment? What do you think of the farm system and the prospects? Your whole enjoyment of your baseball experience should not revolve around the manager. If it does then please accept my condolences and pity.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : You're right, Francona does many, many right things. My problem is that every other manager also does many. many right things. Like making out the lineup, playing a 1st baseman at 1st base, a 2nd baseman at 2nd base etc. We all know that all losses are not due to his lack of managing ability. Too many are due to his inept managing abilities. Many games that we complain about, might be losses anyway, but we want him to try to win winnable games, EVERY TIME! I refuse to accept not trying to win any game that is within reach. As far as the sports commentators are concerned, they look at Francona the same way you do. The team is winning consistantly, so Francona must be doing a great job. Would you call the voters for Manager of The Year, sports commentators?? 7+ years of the Sox winning, and not even in the top 3 vote getters. Maybe , just maybe, the caliber of players has been better than the players available to any other manager in Sox history.  In my opinion, most of the past managers of the Sox would be enjoying the kind of results that Francona enjoys if they had the talent to work with that he's had. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Sox of the last 7+ years would have experienced better, much better, results with a few of the past managers. He, himself, has said on more than one accasion that he's been very lucky to have the talent that the front office has provided him with. As far as him being stupid......as far as managing ability is concerned, he is not the brightest bulb on the circuit.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]
    Bosox your right I do not know if people will agree with me but he should have thrown Wheeler in the 8th win loose or draw, but he brings in Lester but worse than that he brings in Acevesdown 5 to 2 come playoff time Aceves arm is gonna fall off & Morales is right behing him
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : I think it's funny how some fans want to imply that Francona is some sort of mental genius. He's not, and you're exactly correct. He was trying to get Lester a chance at a win. That was more important than trying to do what's best for the TEAM to have a chance at winning a winnable game.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    You have no clue about this.  If getting pitchers wins was so important to Francona, why was Beckett lifted after 6 innings his past two starts with the score tied? 
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : You have no clue about this.  If getting pitchers wins was so important to Francona, why was Beckett lifted after 6 innings his past two starts with the score tied? 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Is Beckett like a son to Francona? He's said that about Lester. Do you not think he wants Wake to get #200? 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    Bosox1941, I do hope you appreciate that, when arguing Francona's ignorance, it is best not to go too near the thin ice, that being his winning record, first two WS wins in 86 years, greater success than the Yankees, etc. I mean, it can be done, but you do have to be careful.  

    Some salient facts the naysayers have glossed over concerning Wednesday night's loss to Minnesota when Lester went out to pitch the 8th: 

    1.  The game was tied, 2-2.  The Sox were not trying to preserve a win, but hoping to score and then preserve a win.   

    2.  Bard and Papelbon were off the roster for that game, so Francona's two best late inning pitchers were unavailable.  The choices were now down to Aceves, Wheeler, Morales, Albers, and Miller, and Miller was easily the most rested.  Plus, remember, Francona needed pitchers for two innings if he wasn't going to use Lester.  If the game stayed tied, then we are talking about 3 or more innings. 

    3.  Apropos of 2, the Sox were playing their 20th game in 20 days.  That's why Pedroia had rested Pedroia, Youk, etc.  It is a safe assumption that bullpen was a little tired.  Bard, for example, is among the AL leaders in games pitched, innings pitched by relievers, and holds. 

    4.  Lester, on the other hand, had pitched a very light July (fewer than half the pitches of each of the prior three months) and just once in August, so we can assume he was well rested.  Oh, and he'd given up two runs in 7 innings. 

    5.  The Sox are in the drivers seat, ahead of the Yankees and way ahead of all wild card teams.  And they have been winning a lot since the All-Star game.  So this was not the time to expend all resources to try to get a win.  Try, yes, but don't go all out. 

     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]Bosox1941, I do hope you appreciate that, when arguing Francona's ignorance, it is best not to go too near the thin ice, that being his winning record, first two WS wins in 86 years, greater success than the Yankees, etc. I mean, it can be done, but you do have to be careful.   Some salient facts the naysayers have glossed over concerning Wednesday night's loss to Minnesota when Lester went out to pitch the 8th:  1.  The game was tied, 2-2.  The Sox were not trying to preserve a win, but hoping to score and then preserve a win.    2.  Bard and Papelbon were off the roster for that game, so Francona's two best late inning pitchers were unavailable.  The choices were now down to Aceves, Wheeler, Morales, Albers, and Miller, and Miller was easily the most rested.  Plus, remember, Francona needed pitchers for two innings if he wasn't going to use Lester.  If the game stayed tied, then we are talking about 3 or more innings.  3.  Apropos of 2, the Sox were playing their 20th game in 20 days.  That's why Pedroia had rested Pedroia, Youk, etc.  It is a safe assumption that bullpen was a little tired.  Bard, for example, is among the AL leaders in games pitched, innings pitched by relievers, and holds.  4.  Lester, on the other hand, had pitched a very light July (fewer than half the pitches of each of the prior three months) and just once in August, so we can assume he was well rested.  Oh, and he'd given up two runs in 7 innings.  5.  The Sox are in the drivers seat, ahead of the Yankees and way ahead of all wild card teams.  And they have been winning a lot since the All-Star game.  So this was not the time to expend all resources to try to get a win.  Try, yes, but don't go all out. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the advice.His winning record.  HIS? or the team's??
    First 2 WS wins in 86 years.  2004 was incredible, my dad lived to see it at 91. Then they won again in 2007, WOW! I may be alone here, but, although I am thrilled, I don't believe they have lived up to their capabilities. I believe the front office has assembled great teams over the last 8 years. I also believe the talented players should have been in more than 2 WS. I believe they should have been considered a dynasty. I believe they have not lived up to theur potential. I believe that Francona has in fact held this team back. They should have been in 2 to 3 more WS.
    Greater success than the Yankees. Better overall teams than the Yankees.

     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : Thanks for the advice.His winning record.  HIS? or the team's?? First 2 WS wins in 86 years.  2004 was incredible, my dad lived to see it at 91. Then they won again in 2007, WOW! I may be alone here, but, although I am thrilled, I don't believe they have lived up to their capabilities. I believe the front office has assembled great teams over the last 8 years. I also believe the talented players should have been in more than 2 WS. I believe they should have been considered a dynasty. I believe they have not lived up to theur potential. I believe that Francona has in fact held this team back. They should have been in 2 to 3 more WS. Greater success than the Yankees. Better overall teams than the Yankees.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    If you break it down though, the only year I can see that we could have done better was 2008.

    2005 - No Pedro, no Schilling, no D-Lowe.  Playoff starters were Clement, Wells and Wakefield.

    2006 - Decimated by injuries.

    2009 - Yankees were clearly the best team.

    2010 - No Beckett, terrible bullpen, injuries.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    The issue, it seems to me, was not sending Lester out for the 8th but leaving him there after he walked the batter. He had given up only two runs but he hadn't pitched an especially strong game against a weak team. 
    People say that a 2-2 game could have gone into extra innings and put additional stress on the pen. But the Sox might have scored in the 9th. In any event, when the game is tied that late the rule of thumb is "hold 'em right there."
    Terry usually knows better, and I understand why he was trying to save the pen, but it looked as though Lester's night was finished. My guess is that, say, the Yank and Angels skippers would have gone to the mound with the hook, even with their bullpens in the same shape. ( No, I'm NOT saying that they are better managers than Terry, but they more inclined to go for the jugular, for better or worse. ) 
    What I am saying is that you try by hook or by crook to win a game like that. No doubt Terry thought he WAS doing that as well as saving the pen. I just think that a good argument can be made for having done it another way.
    Finn has been predicting a Cy Young for Lester for some time, and it may happen. But he is not in the same league yet with Hernandez, Sabathia, Verlander, Beckett ( when healthy ), or, perhaps, Weaver.  He is probably near the top of the second tier of AL pitchers. That is nothing to sneeze at.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    All managers push it with their starters.  Sabathia is still in the game for the Yankees right now even though he's given up 4 home runs and 2 doubles.  Pretty obvious he doesn't really have his best stuff tonight.  The Yankees have an excellent pen and can score runs in a hurry.  Girardi is pushing his luck but like I say, all managers do it.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]All managers push it with their starters.  Sabathia is still in the game for the Yankees right now even though he's given up 4 home runs and 2 doubles.  Pretty obvious he doesn't really have his best stuff tonight.  The Yankees have an excellent pen and can score runs in a hurry.  Girardi is pushing his luck but like I say, all managers do it.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]
    Pushing it depends upon the circumstances. The situation tonight with Sabathia differs from the one with Lester. One pitcher was getting bombed and fell behind. The other was pitching late in a tie game, had just issued his fifth walk -- to start an inning -- and looked like he was forcing it. Girardi needed to get innings out of Sabathia. Terry had already got innings out of Lester.
    In general, you're right about leaving starters in. But under the circumstances I think it's legitimate to raise questions about Terry's decision.

     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : Pushing it depends upon the circumstances. The situation tonight with Sabathia differs from the one with Lester. One pitcher was getting bombed and fell behind. The other was pitching late in a tie game, had just issued his fifth walk -- to start an inning -- and looked like he was forcing it. Girardi needed to get innings out of Sabathia. Terry had already got innings out of Lester. In general, you're right about leaving starters in. But under the circumstances I think it's legitimate to raise questions about Terry's decision.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, it's one of those decisions that falls into the questionable category.  I think there are arguments on both sides.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]The issue, it seems to me, was not sending Lester out for the 8th but leaving him there after he walked the batter. He had given up only two runs but he hadn't pitched an especially strong game against a weak team.  People say that a 2-2 game could have gone into extra innings and put additional stress on the pen. But the Sox might have scored in the 9th. In any event, when the game is tied that late the rule of thumb is "hold 'em right there." Terry usually knows better, and I understand why he was trying to save the pen, but it looked as though Lester's night was finished. My guess is that, say, the Yank and Angels skippers would have gone to the mound with the hook, even with their bullpens in the same shape. ( No, I'm NOT saying that they are better managers than Terry, but they more inclined to go for the jugular, for better or worse. )  What I am saying is that you try by hook or by crook to win a game like that. No doubt Terry thought he WAS doing that as well as saving the pen. I just think that a good argument can be made for having done it another way. Finn has been predicting a Cy Young for Lester for some time, and it may happen. But he is not in the same league yet with Hernandez, Sabathia, Verlander, Beckett ( when healthy ), or, perhaps, Weaver.  He is probably near the top of the second tier of AL pitchers. That is nothing to sneeze at.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
    I mostly agree with your analysis. Where I disagree slightly is that I wouldn't have sent Lester out there to start the inning. We had already gotten 7 innings out of him and the 7th was something of a struggle in itself. Having said that, I certainly would have taken him out after the lead-off walk. What bothers me most is that when a person makes a comment about a decision that might have gone another way, you are automatically labelled a "boo bird", "faux fan" or even a hater. I find it tiresome to be smeared by pom-pom waving, management syncophants, who in their haste to defend the Red Sox flag  refuse to acknowledge opposing views. It seems to me that what makes this site interesting is the open airing of opposing views, rather than the strict adherence to some supposed Red Sox party line.
     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : I mostly agree with your analysis. Where I disagree slightly is that I wouldn't have sent Lester out there to start the inning. We had already gotten 7 innings out of him and the 7th was something of a struggle in itself. Having said that, I certainly would have taken him out after the lead-off walk. What bothers me most is that when a person makes a comment about a decision that might have gone another way, you are automatically labelled a "boo bird", "faux fan" or even a hater. I find it tiresome to be smeared by pom-pom waving, management syncophants, who in their haste to defend the Red Sox flag  refuse to acknowledge opposing views. It seems to me that what makes this site interesting is the open airing of opposing views, rather than the strict adherence to some supposed Red Sox party line.
    Posted by trouts[/QUOTE]
    Yes, a case can be made for taking the seven innings and letting it go at that. Some managers -- if they are trying to save the pen -- operate on the "one batter" principle. If the pitcher retires him, the reward  is one more batter. And so on. That in itself is a dangerous game, especially in a tie when your pitcher has been fighting it. The "one more batter" is not infrequently the guy who beats you.
    Theo neither took the seven innings or gave Lester on batter. 

     
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    Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss

    In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not Upset with last nite's Loss : I'll tell you why he was back out there for the 8th. Because Francona doesn't want to use Bard or Pap back to back unless absolutely necessary. had this been the rubber game, you would have seen Bard. Francona had the series won, and he doesn't trust anyone else to pitch the 8th except Bard, so he figured his best bet was to stick with Jon. He's a bonehead when it comes to managing the BP, or the starters for that matter.
    Posted by harv53[/QUOTE]

    I totallty agree with you.  Francona is trying to win series, and if they don't sweep, so be it.  Sox are not going to run the table and neither is NY.  I can see taking a gamble without Bard and hoping for the best. 

    I like Francona and think he's more intense that he portrays.  Hell he's chewed more sunflower seeds than agene Mulder.  My only gripe with him is he sticks with his starters too long.  Lester and Lackey don't like to be given the hook but to hell with them, they're getting paid anyway.  Lucky they don't have to work a real job for a living.  Francona is too nice. 
     

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