In response to phxvlsoxfan's comment:

This seems to happen more to us than other teams, but I have never done a study on it.

Timely hitting is one reason, but that is something very hard to plan for. Unstable starting rotations will also lend itself to this phenomena.

While Jeter''s defensive proficiency is certainly a topic for debate...

Actually, I think it is beyond debate, but I know many feel otherwise, including the insane GG voters.

In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

thanks for the info Kimmi. BTW, can you post a link to that article?

In response to moonslav59's comment:

 

While Jeter''s defensive proficiency is certainly a topic for debate...

Actually, I think it is beyond debate, but I know many feel otherwise, including the insane GG voters.

 

It appears it's debateable whether it's a debate. While I agree his 5th GG was not deserved, (i.e, a sure handed SS with intangibles and postage stamp range does not merit a GG) the guys who vote on this likely see him day in day out far more than you do. However, as in life, reputations, good or bad, create a lag which adversely impacts proper assessment when things change.  

 

I find almost every stat useful and at least somewhat informative. But some are better then others. I probably use the junior school stats[WHIP and OPS] more then any other stats, even though others may be more accurate[OPS+].

 

As for UZR, the one concern I have with that stat is potential bias. How many people who judge UZR are Yankee or Red Sox haters?  Or what part does reputation play in the results? Manny sucked, so he should have made that play. Tulo is great so others probably would not have made that play. Etc. Still use the stat though.

However, I probably trust RF-9 more then UZR. Its a meat and potato stat you can see with your own eyes. I especially like to compare RF-9 with every player at that position on the same team. Which is why I have some doubts about the greatness of Jose Iglesias's defense. He often has come up short in comparison to his SS team mates.Let alone dominate like he should have.

I also am a huge believer in park factors and prefer looking at road OPS for players that play in extreme parks.

I am a big user of WAR. However, I tend to reduce the numbers for extreme defensive guys, especially in the OF's. Basically cut about a half point for great defenders in the infield, .75 point for CF, and 1.25 for corner OF. Maybe Theo could have used my advice on that one. :)

 

 

 

In response to georom4's comment:

UZR <flush>

Geo - It would be very interesting and lend you credibility if you were to write a few succinct sentences defining what UZR is, then a few more explaining why you don't think it has any value and what you use to evaluate the range of players, particularly those you rarely/never see play.

 

Are you willing to do that, or are you sticking with "<flush>"?

In response to nhsteven's comment:

Jeter's defensive proficiency is legendary. 

 

And by legendary, I mean mythical.  As in, very few have seen it, and none of them who have are reliable.

 

He should exchange his Gold Gloves and be awarded a Golden Sasquatch instead.

 

 

 

How is THAT for debate?

 

 

In response to nhsteven's comment:

I probably saw Jeter play more than some of the GG voters.

The numbers don't lie either. They back up my observations.

Since 2003, his UZR/150 has been:

03  -6.0

04  -0.7   GG   Joke

05 -13.4  GG   Bigger Joke

06  -7.7   GG   Joke

07 -17.9

08  -0.4

09  +8.0  GG  Still a Joke

10  -5.4   GG  Big Joke

11  -8.8

12  -16.4

In response to moonslav59's comment:

 

In response to nhsteven's comment:

 

In response to moonslav59's comment:

 

While Jeter''s defensive proficiency is certainly a topic for debate...

Actually, I think it is beyond debate, but I know many feel otherwise, including the insane GG voters.

 

It appears it's debateable whether it's a debate. While I agree his 5th GG was not deserved, (i.e, a sure handed SS with intangibles and postage stamp range does not merit a GG) the guys who vote on this likely see him day in day out far more than you do. However, as in life, reputations, good or bad, create a lag which adversely impacts proper assessment when things change.  

 

 

I probably saw Jeter play more than some of the GG voters.

 

The numbers don't lie either. They back up my observations.

Since 2003, his UZR/150 has been:

03  -6.0

04  -0.7   GG   Joke

05 -13.4  GG   Bigger Joke

06  -7.7   GG   Joke

07 -17.9

08  -0.4

09  +8.0  GG  Still a Joke

10  -5.4   GG  Big Joke

11  -8.8

12  -16.4

 

Except I think UZR is a joke. One could also claim using one suspect defensive metric to draw global conclusions would fall under the category of cherry picking. As far as you seeing him more than some of the voters, while I believe you (based on what I know about you); you must watch alot of games. And I'm pretty sure most weren't in person, unless you're a scout.

 

In response to nhsteven's comment:

How many live games do you think the GG voters see of each and every SS in MLB over a season?

UZR/150 is not a joke. It is based on actual observations of each and every play by each and every player over a full season.

RF/9 does not lie.

Other stats do not lie.

Jeter is a statue out there and has been for 10 years.

 

It's not some Yankee hating position I have, as I have given many a Yankee his due props. Jeter is a great offensive player who plays in the media center of the world. He gets all the hype. He gets the home field calls on errors. He has about the worst range I have ever seen in a SS. I've seen dozens of Yankee games live and many many more on TV, and yes, you can determine poor or great range from watching TV.

Jeter has been horrible in the field, but because he makes the plays hit right at him and a few highlight reel nice plays, he gets the votes based on his offense, his WS rings, and his expansive exposure.

In response to notin's comment:

...thus spoke Zaranotin ...

This post has been removed.

In response to moonslav59's comment:

The GG voters from what I understand are coaches & managers. There is also a cogent difference between 2 dimensional narrow view TV (although HD has helped) and live. As far as "home" town calls, we're probably talking a couple a season, and this is not restricted to him. Also, while I in general I partly agree with you, I'm also going to have to agree that we partly disagree, metrics, Jeter, and so on. To each his own. 

I haven't read all the posts yet, but I just wanted to weigh in with a thought or two.

Regardless of whether or not they're old school or new school, any one stat is useless unless they're used in context with other stats.

For example, OPS is a great stat, but if the batter has a low BA w/RISP -- Drew a couple of years ago -- then in my opinion that great OPS loses some luster. If a hitter has 40 HRs, that looks great, but if he's batting .210 with 70 RBIs and a .280 OBP in 600 PA, then those 40 HRs aren't so great.

ERA is a great stat and a lousy stat. A low ERA tells a lot about a pitcher. It's hard to distort a bad (or even mediocre) ERA with two or three great starts. Yeah, those great starts will help but only two a point. On the other hand, two or three really horrible stats can easily distort an otherwise great ERA. Look at Lester and Beckett last year. I forget the exact numbers, but Beckett and Lester each had ERAs in the mid- to high 4.00s (maybe even low) after 13 starts for Beckett and 15 (maybe 17 starts) for Lester. But if you took away their two worst starts, Beckett's ERA was around 2.50 and Lester's 3.50 -- something like that. (WHIP is the same way).

So no matter what stats you are looking at, you need to look at more than one stat and you have too look deep into individual stats to see what's going on.

In response to georom4's comment:

You might think a history teacher would knoe that people resistant to new ways of thinking frequently become obsolete as fast as the opinions they defend...

what roy said

In response to mef429's comment:

Here's the link to the chat:

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/46840-chat-with-john-dewan/

The particular quotes I posted came from reply #27 and reply #36.

Here's a link to FAQ on The Fielding Bible regarding the Plus/Minus system.  Towards the bottom there are some questions regarding the scouts who score these plays.

http://www.fieldingbible.com/Fielding-Bible-FAQ.asp

Here is a link to The Fielding Bible that explains BIS data collection, the data that is used for UZR and Plus/Minus rankings.

 

 

Oops, forgot the last link:

http://www.fieldingbible.com/methodology-bisdatacollection.asp

 

This post has been removed.

In response to notin's comment:

 

In response to nhsteven's comment:

 

 

 

While Jeter''s defensive proficiency is certainly a topic for debate, so are these new fangled defensive metrics.

 

Jeter's defensive proficiency is legendary. 

 

 

And by legendary, I mean mythical.  As in, very few have seen it, and none of them who have are reliable.

 

He should exchange his Gold Gloves and be awarded a Golden Sasquatch instead.

 

 

 

How is THAT for debate?

 

 

 

I have seen Jeter not make plays that most others would have. I've also seen the opposite. He is IMO, a defensive paradox. And, just like me, you're entitled to your opinion.  

 

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In response to LR3683paw's comment:

It's amazing what these guys can do with the technology that they have.  They have stats on everything, and they have become very advanced at accounting for so many of the different variables that go into every play.  UZR is a lot less subjective and random than fielding % is.  Personally, I love this stuff.

 

In response to moonslav59's comment:

Before or after the breakdown?

This post has been removed.

In response to pinstripezac's comment:

I hope it's not "if Jeter is the worst SS, how have the Yanks won with him as their SS if SS is so important argument."

Baseball is a team sport, and maybe the one ring the Yanks won the last decade was due to having 7 guys with 22 or more HRs and the other 2 with 31 combined.