One View of 2013 and Beyond

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    "Bradley, Jr. and J. Upton will be a solid long term match for many years to come"

    "Look at Kemp. That is the player Upton should easily become over the next few seasons"

     

    Many years to come huh? I guess if you consider only 3 years as many, then yeah, I guess so. Upton will be leaving for FA after 2015 right in his prime, or as Moon says, right about the time he becomes Matt Kemp.

    I apologize for the sarcasm, but tell me how you build a team around a guy that will be gone in 3 years? You dont. You build a team around a Middlebrooks, or a Pedey, or a Lester. A guy that will be here for at least 6 years and possibly longer. Not for a guy that will surely follow the money in 3 years...

    If we are truely looking toward the future, then giving up the prospects it will take to get this guy will surely be sacrificing that to an extent.

    Im sure theres nothing to worry about anyway. There are probably more teams out there that would part with better prospects than we would part with to get the services of the Great J. Upton for 3 years.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    "Bradley, Jr. and J. Upton will be a solid long term match for many years to come"

    "Look at Kemp. That is the player Upton should easily become over the next few seasons"

     

    Many years to come huh? I guess if you consider only 3 years as many, then yeah, I guess so. Upton will be leaving for FA after 2015 right in his prime, or as Moon says, right about the time he becomes Matt Kemp.

     

    I never said this, and actually believe that Upton is above Matt Kemp's pre-age 26 level level, and will be close to Kemp's age 26 & 27 levels over the next 3 years (about a .925 to .950 OPS rate).

    I apologize for the sarcasm, but tell me how you build a team around a guy that will be gone in 3 years?

     

     

    I think 3 years is a long time, especially when we can see many Sox fans be-rate me for just asking for a 1 year bridge to a seriously contending team in 2014. Upton should be having his best seasons in 2014 & 2015, then we can extend him or get the comp draft pick.

     

    You dont. You build a team around a Middlebrooks, or a Pedey, or a Lester. A guy that will be here for at least 6 years and possibly longer. Not for a guy that will surely follow the money in 3 years...

    Newsflash: Pedey is under team control for 3 years. Lester for 2 years and has shown serious decline recently. Middlebrooks is still largely unproven, and is not yet a player we can reliably say, "let's build our team around him". Quite frankly, that thought scares me.

    If we are truely looking toward the future, then giving up the prospects it will take to get this guy will surely be sacrificing that to an extent.

    Possibly. Assuming the guys we give up go on to have some great season within their window of team control. Chances are Bradley might only reach "Kemp status" for his last 3 years of team control- not 6.

    Im sure theres nothing to worry about anyway. There are probably more teams out there that would part with better prospects than we would part with to get the services of the Great J. Upton for 3 years.

    Not sure about that, but I'd rather trade prospects for the reasonably priced Upton than overpay for Hamilton. The money saved by trading for Upton rather than paying for Hamilton can be better used to upgrade our pitching staff-hopefully with younger FAs or trade choices.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    The first sentence about "years to come" was from the soft one...Sorry for the confusion. I shoudve put the names of the posters after each sentence.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Without a doubt, Ellsbury adds more value to the DBacks than J. Upton...

    Stooge, that's for 2013, you catatonic reactionary mental midget. The value is in the specific proposal I correctly just articulated. Your proposal is absurd.

    Notin's nonsense about trading Bradley, Jr. is absurd. Since he doesn't have to be traded to close this deal, this would be the same type of incompetence that is the essense of the Red Sox GM office. They will get huge value and fit from bradley, Jr. in CF, for years to come. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Unless you are Kevin Towers or have spoken to him about the subject, you have no way of knowing this.   Obviously, deling one year of Ellsbury is preferable than dealing 6 years of Bradley,  but why would the DBacks want this?  To get a draft pick from Ellsbury?  If they were lucky, they would get a prospect as good as Bradley with that draft pick.  and even then, it would still be more expensive for them, because they would have to sign that pick.   So you want think the Diamondbacks, who even after dealing Chris Young, still have 4 outfielders includsing 2 center fielders (Eaton and Parra), to pay $10mill or so for Jacoby, take a gamble on a draft pick, pay him the associated slot signing bonus (which has already been paid for Bradley), and then hope he actually becomes a worthwhile player?  Wouldn't it be simpler and smarter for them to simply acquire a prospect in the first place and forget all about Ellsbury?  And they might have positions in mind for the prospect, but usually teams simply prefer the best one they can get.  They probably would prefer Bogaerts.  I hope the Sox don't go that high.  I would prefer to deal Bradley, since I think Kalish is at least as good if not better, and the minor league track records of both players, which is really the only criteria any of us have, strongly supports this notion.

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "Bradley, Jr. and J. Upton will be a solid long term match for many years to come"

    "Look at Kemp. That is the player Upton should easily become over the next few seasons"

     

    Many years to come huh? I guess if you consider only 3 years as many, then yeah, I guess so. Upton will be leaving for FA after 2015 right in his prime, or as Moon says, right about the time he becomes Matt Kemp.

    I apologize for the sarcasm, but tell me how you build a team around a guy that will be gone in 3 years? You dont. You build a team around a Middlebrooks, or a Pedey, or a Lester. A guy that will be here for at least 6 years and possibly longer. Not for a guy that will surely follow the money in 3 years...

    If we are truely looking toward the future, then giving up the prospects it will take to get this guy will surely be sacrificing that to an extent.

    Im sure theres nothing to worry about anyway. There are probably more teams out there that would part with better prospects than we would part with to get the services of the Great J. Upton for 3 years.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    1.  I am fairly certain it is still legal to sign players to extensions.  If the Sopx were to extend Upton, whoo will opnly be 28 when his deal expires,  he will bne expensive, but he will alsp probably be among the best hitters in the league.   The honest chances are it is unlikely Boston even gets him, because Atlanta and Texas have superior farm systems and needs for power hitting outfielders, and other teams will most defintely be in on any bidding, as well.   Hopwver, if he does end up in Boston, will you become one of those hater fans who refuses to root for a guy because you did not endorse the deal, or because it might have cost a player you liked in the minors?  Please tell me you won't do that.  Those people are stupid.

     

    Really, the Sox are going to try and get a big bat for the outfield, and it won't be Bryce Brentz.  I would much rather give up the talent to get 25yo Justin Upton for 3 years and worry about extensions after than, than ive up too much talent for 2 years of 33yo Josh Willingham.

     

    2.  I would take 3 years of Upton over 10 years of Bryce Brentz.  Upton is that good despite your dislike of his superior performnce at higher levels than some of the Sox minor leaguers.  There is a good reason he was chosen number one overall, and he has shown enough to convince everyone except a small few.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    Without a doubt, Ellsbury adds more value to the DBacks than J. Upton...

    Stooge, that's for 2013, you catatonic reactionary mental midget. The value is in the specific proposal I correctly just articulated. Your proposal is absurd.

    You are a lunatic. For years you try to tell us how bad Ellsbury is and how he never plays. For over a year now you have praised Upton. Now you try and tell us Ellsbury is a better value for AZ than Upton for 2013 only? (BTW, you never said just 2013, and it still makes no sense anyway you look at it, except maybe from the viewpoint of a clown.)

    Notin's nonsense about trading Bradley, Jr. is absurd. Since he doesn't have to be traded to close this deal, this would be the same type of incompetence that is the essense of the Red Sox GM office. They will get huge value and fit from bradley, Jr. in CF, for years to come. 

     Just watch what Upton gets traded for: it will not be for an Ellsbury type player, but instead for a player similar to Bradley's profile and then some.

    Of course you'll deny it all afterwards, just like you did after the AGon trade & signing schooling you took.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    Uggla is a minor league fielder, and not a fit at all.

    The deal wasn't about Uggla: it was about getting Hanson for cheaper than with no Uggla salary dump attached.

    This reminds me of your shooting holes in my CC for Zito suggestion, and how you said Zito was washed up and that nobody would take CC. It's hard to be wrong twice on one position, but you find ways to do so more and more often.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "Bradley, Jr. and J. Upton will be a solid long term match for many years to come"

    "Look at Kemp. That is the player Upton should easily become over the next few seasons"

     

    Many years to come huh? I guess if you consider only 3 years as many, then yeah, I guess so. Upton will be leaving for FA after 2015 right in his prime, or as Moon says, right about the time he becomes Matt Kemp.

    I apologize for the sarcasm, but tell me how you build a team around a guy that will be gone in 3 years? You dont. You build a team around a Middlebrooks, or a Pedey, or a Lester. A guy that will be here for at least 6 years and possibly longer. Not for a guy that will surely follow the money in 3 years...

    If we are truely looking toward the future, then giving up the prospects it will take to get this guy will surely be sacrificing that to an extent.

    Im sure theres nothing to worry about anyway. There are probably more teams out there that would part with better prospects than we would part with to get the services of the Great J. Upton for 3 years.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    1.  I am fairly certain it is still legal to sign players to extensions.  If the Sopx were to extend Upton, whoo will opnly be 28 when his deal expires,  he will bne expensive, but he will alsp probably be among the best hitters in the league.   The honest chances are it is unlikely Boston even gets him, because Atlanta and Texas have superior farm systems and needs for power hitting outfielders, and other teams will most defintely be in on any bidding, as well.   Hopwver, if he does end up in Boston, will you become one of those hater fans who refuses to root for a guy because you did not endorse the deal, or because it might have cost a player you liked in the minors?  Please tell me you won't do that.  Those people are stupid.

    I would almost guarentee that Upton would go to FA. Especially if he does realize his full potential and puts it all together coinsitently every  year. I guess unless the Sox back the Brinks truck up to his front door and pay him for the next 10 years. I still think other clubs will be willing to offer AZ more in prospects than BC will be willing to part with.

    As far as hating on any player that I personally didnt want...I would never do that. I was totally against Lackey and CC, but rooted them on and hoped they perfromed well. I didnt start multipe threads "hating " on them. Thats useless and a waste of time IMO. I dont get satisfaction, like some here, when guys who play for the Sox that I/they didnt want here, do poorly. That is self-centered and stupid. I root for the Sox, and whether my personal feelings differ with certain players, I will cheer for them as well. If they fail, the Sox fail to a certain extent.

     

    Really, the Sox are going to try and get a big bat for the outfield, and it won't be Bryce Brentz.  I would much rather give up the talent to get 25yo Justin Upton for 3 years and worry about extensions after than, than ive up too much talent for 2 years of 33yo Josh Willingham.

    If Brentz is part of a deal the Sox make to aquire Upton, thats fine with me. What will bother me is Towers will also want Bogaerts, probably Barnes and or another MLB or ML pitcher and Garin Cecchini as well. I say this only because Ive read where Towers has stated hes looking for a front line pitcher, a SS and a 3b. I imagine the haul would be at least 4 or 5 for 1. Not sure giving up a couple pitchers is worth Upton when we dont have many pitchers at the upper levels.

    2.  I would take 3 years of Upton over 10 years of Bryce Brentz.  Upton is that good despite your dislike of his superior performnce at higher levels than some of the Sox minor leaguers.  There is a good reason he was chosen number one overall, and he has shown enough to convince everyone except a small few.

    Ive never doubted his potential and have stated that. Its the amount of prospects and which ones they will surely want, the fact that he has yet to put it all together. The numbers say so. Now Im not saying that he wont, Im just looking at his numbers the last 4 years (more than 550PA) and seeing whats right in front of me. And finally only 3 years. Theres no guarentees of re-signing.

    Is he a 30HR hitter (which hes only done once as well) or a 15-20? Only batted .300 once, although .280 is good. Not great, but very good. Consistent OBP around .350-.360 with an up and down SLG and OPS. K's a bunch, but slightly improving (not a big concern if he can belt 30HR consistently). His splits are very close on most stats. If we could extend him on a long term deal, I would  probably change my stance a bit.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    Upton has done more by age 24 than most players do from ages 24-28. If normal growth trends occur, Upton can and should put up some awesome numbers the next 3 years. This team can win in 2014 and 2015, and Upton could be a driving force. Remember, we traded HanRam for how many years of control of Beckett? Yes, we extended him for 3 years during his first year here, but still...

    The trade helped us win a ring, and helped the Marlins as well.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    One possible plan is to pay Tim Wakefield $750,000 to come back and eat innings and win those 13 games that his agent talked about.

    [/QUOTE]


    gotta admit, that was pretty funny LOL.
     

    I agree with going after J Upton but the price it would take to do so is scary. If i had to i would much rather use those assests to land a TOR pitcher instead.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

     

     

    I agree with going after J Upton but the price it would take to do so is scary. If i had to i would much rather use those assests to land a TOR pitcher instead.

    Me too, but name a TOR pitcher that is avaiable. 

    If you find one, he will likely cost at least 2 of Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts.

    I want us to try and get Upton, but I also want us to pick up a couple of solid #3 type starters, since this is not the year to gamble that Peavy, Greinke, or Haren can and will pitch like a #1 for 2+ years.

    Trade for Brett Anderson.

    Sign McCarthy or Marcum, of maybe Edwin Jackson or A Sanchez if the price is right.

    If we pick up 2 of these 5 guys, we may be able to trade Doubront, Morales, and some other players for another solid starter.

    I'm all about improving our staff from the top, but I don't see many realistic options this winter, so we should set ourselves up with a supporting cast and a stockpile of prospects for when that day comes when we can get the final piece.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I agree with going after J Upton but the price it would take to do so is scary. If i had to i would much rather use those assests to land a TOR pitcher instead.

    Me too, but name a TOR pitcher that is avaiable. 

    If you find one, he will likely cost at least 2 of Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts.

    I want us to try and get Upton, but I also want us to pick up a couple of solid #3 type starters, since this is not the year to gamble that Peavy, Greinke, or Haren can and will pitch like a #1 for 2+ years.

    Trade for Brett Anderson.

    Sign McCarthy or Marcum, of maybe Edwin Jackson or A Sanchez if the price is right.

    If we pick up 2 of these 5 guys, we may be able to trade Doubront, Morales, and some other players for another solid starter.

    I'm all about improving our staff from the top, but I don't see many realistic options this winter.

    [/QUOTE]


    you never know. once those winter meetings start lots of guys become available. we have a solid pool of talent we can trade and if we have what another GM is looking for a deal can be made. i try not to rule anything out. i couldn't even if i wanted to, who would have thunk  we'd come into 2013 with so much payroll free'd up? i thought they were lying when i first heard about it lol.

    the point is, theres always a deal out there (with exception to king felix).

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I agree with going after J Upton but the price it would take to do so is scary. If i had to i would much rather use those assests to land a TOR pitcher instead.

    Me too, but name a TOR pitcher that is avaiable. 

    If you find one, he will likely cost at least 2 of Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts.

    I want us to try and get Upton, but I also want us to pick up a couple of solid #3 type starters, since this is not the year to gamble that Peavy, Greinke, or Haren can and will pitch like a #1 for 2+ years.

    Trade for Brett Anderson.

    Sign McCarthy or Marcum, of maybe Edwin Jackson or A Sanchez if the price is right.

    If we pick up 2 of these 5 guys, we may be able to trade Doubront, Morales, and some other players for another solid starter.

    I'm all about improving our staff from the top, but I don't see many realistic options this winter.

    [/QUOTE]


    you never know. once those winter meetings start lots of guys become available. we have a solid pool of talent we can trade and if we have what another GM is looking for a deal can be made. i try not to rule anything out. i couldn't even if i wanted to, who would have thunk  we'd come into 2013 with so much payroll free'd up? i thought they were lying when i first heard about it lol.

    the point is, theres always a deal out there (with exception to king felix).

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think many people expected Pedro to be Pedro after we traded for him.

    The Gio Gonzalez trade last winter is an example of finding diamonds in the ruff.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If Upton could be had for Bradley and Webster, I make the deal twice today and again tomorrow. Bradley to date has been the slightly lesser, healthier version of Kalish.

    How dim witted does that get.

    In addition, there is no chance that any team exceeds this offer:

    Ellsbury for 2013

    Ellsbury Draft compensation or Ellsbury FA years 

    Webster or De La Rosa

    Brentz and Bogearts or Brentz or Bogearts and one from any player on the farm except Barnes and Bradley, Jr. 

    The above offer would allow the DBacks to bring in a 3rd team to get as good a deal as they are going to get, including a top LH OF prospect or young MLB solid talent

    MLB AL today is less about pitching than at anytime in history. Defending balls in play and complete offensive skillset is the understanding of any competent GM. Very important for the Red Sox to move forward for years to come with total skillset package talents like J. Upton in LF and Bradley, Jr. in CF.

    I suspect Cherry is racking his brain about how to sign Ellsbury as a FA. He's that stupid.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You're pretty spot-on with your comments.  I just wouldn't give up Boegarts.  Just for the sake of argument, say Ellsbury = Upton (which nets us two years of Upton), just to make the analysis easier.  Then you'd be giving up Brentz (only .815 in the minors with a 3/1 K/W), a top-100 pitching prospect, and Ellsbury's comp.  That's reasonable for the other two years of Upton.  Boegarts is too big a prospect to add to that package.

    Or better yet, if they did insist on Boegarts, make it strictly a minor league package of Boegarts, a pitcher, and Brentz.  Ells, Upton, and hopefully Ross would look like a top-level OF.  Promote JBJ in 2014 and take the comp on Ells.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I agree with going after J Upton but the price it would take to do so is scary. If i had to i would much rather use those assests to land a TOR pitcher instead.

    Me too, but name a TOR pitcher that is avaiable. 

    If you find one, he will likely cost at least 2 of Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts.

    I want us to try and get Upton, but I also want us to pick up a couple of solid #3 type starters, since this is not the year to gamble that Peavy, Greinke, or Haren can and will pitch like a #1 for 2+ years.

    *****Trade for Brett Anderson.*****

    Sign McCarthy or Marcum, of maybe Edwin Jackson or A Sanchez if the price is right.

    If we pick up 2 of these 5 guys, we may be able to trade Doubront, Morales, and some other players for another solid starter.

    I'm all about improving our staff from the top, but I don't see many realistic options this winter.

     


    I think going after Brett Anderson would be a shrewd move for a handful of reasons. 

    #1 - Young, left handed, talented

    #2 - Cost controlled for next 3 seasons (5 Mil in '13, 8 Mil in '14, 12 Mil in '15) and with increasing cost - OAK will look to trade him soon given their MO

    #3 - Finally at 100% after rehabbing from TJS - could be had for reasonable prospect/player package given OAK's dearth of pitching

    #4 - Consistent GB/FB ratio of over 1 - keeps the ball on the ground. High BABIP throught career means he has had bad luck. With solid defense behind him, his stats could improve dramatically.

     

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You're pretty spot-on with your comments.  I just wouldn't give up Boegarts.

    In fact, Boegarts should be gone yesterday if that's all that holds up completing the trade. I suspect that:

    Ellsbury for 2013 (better AZ 2013 value than J. Upton due to park and league)

    Ellsbury draft compensation

    Brentz

    Webster or De La Rosa

    and one other farm prospect of their choice from anyone on the farm but Barnes and Bradley, Jr.

    But if there are better offers, unlikely, you absoultely add Bogaerts and another farm talent other than Bradley, Jr. and Barnes, if that's what it takes to beat any other offer.

    [/QUOTE]


    you can't have your cake and eat it too. according to you, "ellsbrick is made of glass, has a paper arm and is a poor excuse of a baseball player" and yet he is the centerpiece of the deal to bring J Upton here. he adds more value to the Dbacks w/ one year left on this contract (when you guarentee he will miss at least 2/3 of the games) than the younger J upton does w/ 3 years left on his contract.

    which is it? is jacoby a dud or is he the centerpiece all-star it would take to land J Upton

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Without a doubt, Ellsbury adds more value to the DBacks than J. Upton...

    Blithering absurdity.

    The guy softy called a 4th OF'er well into the 2011 season is now going to be of more value to AZ than J Upton at age 24 with several years of control remaining.

    Silly clown.

    [/QUOTE]


    ....didn't the silly clown, Stiffy, also call the haul from the Dodgers "farm scraps"?  Now it's "and one of the two next best pitching prospects in either Webster or De La Rosa".

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: One View of 2013 and Beyond

    ....didn't the silly clown, Stiffy, also call the haul from the Dodgers "farm scraps"?  Now it's "and one of the two next best pitching prospects in either Webster or De La Rosa".

    He's flipped & flopped more than Mitt on every issue known to politics.

     
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