Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:27 AM EST
- Joebreidey
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Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : I can always count on JoeyB not to overreact.
Posted by RedSoxKimmi
The thing that ST stats are good for is mostly to see how a player is after returning from an injury. I'd bet (not a lot), but I'd bet that not a person in here knows who he got his two hits off of. And maybe just maybe two posters know how he looked in his other ABs. Did he extend the pitcher before a hard grounder on a 3-2 count, or did he pop up on the first pitch on a pitch above the shoulders?
Having said that, he is on our likely OD roster. If CC is on the DL, and we carry four bench players, I think it should be Shop, Punto, DMac, and Iggy. I'd start Aviles out of veteran respect, but then switch Aviles to super platoon with generous OF starts, and Iggy at SS.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:30 AM EST
- Bill-806
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Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : Bill, nothing certain yet. I think, for management and for Space-arm-chair-management, Jose has to continue to hit well through camp in order to take the risk. His swing looks pretty fluid right now. But, talk to me when the pitchers start rounding into form and breaking him off some serious change-ups, sliders, and curves. If he is still lacing the ball, hey, let the Iggy era begin, and I will proudly say BILL TOLD ME SO. Tell you what, I am gonna be down in FL for some scouting in two weeks. I will give you my proper scouting analysis and also submit it to "Luccianos".
Posted by SpacemanEephus
TELL MY "GOD FATHER" THAT I SAID HELLO !!!!!!
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:32 AM EST
- Bill-806
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : If you think that you are "way ahead of the curve on this one," you must not be reading other posters who were campaigning for Iglesias way back.
Posted by expitch
YA MEAN. AS FAR BACK AS LAST SEPTEMBER AFTER THE 7-20 DEMISE ????
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:40 AM EST
- Bill-806
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Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : I have a feeling there may be many posters claiming to be on the beginning Iggy bandwagon. I'm convinced that if Iggy is the FT SS and hitting .200 by July, most astute fans will see so many saved hits, they will forget about his BA and be happy he got the job.
Posted by moonslav59
IM WITH YOU MOON..... IGGY WILL OPEN UP AT SHORT, AND AVILIES WILL OPEN UP IN LEFT FOR HIS BAT WHILE CARL C. IS OUT..... THEY MAY TRY AND PUSH LAVARNWAY (NEXT CARLTON FISK) BACK TO AAA FOR A BIT, BUT HE WILL BE HERE SOOOONER, RATHER THAN LATER...... OH YES, I SEE DANNY AINGE MOVING RONDO IF HE CAN GET THE RIGHT DEAL !!!
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:42 AM EST
- dgalehouse
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The fast hands and feet and quick reflexes that Iglesias shows in the field can also help him become a decent hitter. Working with Magadan will help. He may not start the season with the Sox , but I think he will be their shortstop before long.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 10:49 AM EST
- Bill-806
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AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING, THE PITCHERS & BOBBY V. ARE GOING TO LOVE IGGY..... HE WILL MAKE THEM ALL LOOK GOOD/GREAT !!
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 11:15 AM EST
- moonslav59
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Plan B is either Mike Aviles or Nick Punto, not Cal Ripken.
So true, but we could be looking at an 80 point lower BA and 100+ loer OBP, so the drop off could be significant.
I know Aviles has had a good amount of success at the plate, but he has also never had a 500AB season and is 31 years old.
While true, we did see an example of a journeyman utility IF'er who never had 500+ ABs until he was 32 end up doing a serviceable job. Marco Scutaro had his first 500 AB season in 2008 at age 32 (turned 33 that October). In all fairness, he did have 4 staright years with 338 to 455 ABs before becomming Toronto's FT SS. Mike has had 419, 120, 424, and 286 the last 4 years. He has improved on OBP vs BA, but is still pretty low.
Iglesias shouldn't be counted on to hit...
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 11:56 AM EST
- snakeoil123
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Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : He is hitting .286. It is difficult to find less support for starting someone than 2 hits. I like him, but thinks he needs at least a half season in AAA. Two singles is not going to change my mind.
Posted by Joebreidey
There is no reason at all for Iglesias to start the season with Boston and he won't.
The guy had 10 extra base hits in like 400 at bats last year. He needs more time in the minors to work on his approach. He isn't going to be the starter opening day.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 12:12 PM EST
- jasko2248
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In response to "Re: Opening Day SS":
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : There is no reason at all for Iglesias to start the season with Boston and he won't. The guy had 10 extra base hits in like 400 at bats last year. He needs more time in the minors to work on his approach. He isn't going to be the starter opening day.
Posted by snakeoil123
Don't be so sure...the kid's added 10 lbs of muscle since last off season, he's healthy (unlike last season) and Bobby Valentine stuck with Ordonez when he didn't hit because he realizes how important defense is in this game...I'd say his chances are at about 50% right now, especially if he continues to show a good approach at the plate. It's not all about "stats" when it comes to evaluating young talent
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 1:40 PM EST
- moonslav59
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : There is no reason at all for Iglesias to start the season with Boston and he won't. The guy had 10 extra base hits in like 400 at bats last year. He needs more time in the minors to work on his approach. He isn't going to be the starter opening day.
Posted by snakeoil123
The SS position is the most important and influential defensive position at all levels of baseball. That is a pretty big reason for Iggy to be our opening day SS. You may disagree that it is reason enough, but don't act like it is "no reason at all".
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 1:43 PM EST
- RedSoxKimmi
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : Keep in mind that there are three bandewagons this time. Those who think he should start on OD (you). Those who think he'll never be any good (come and identify yourselves). Those who are pleased with his progress, but think he needs additional seasoning (and maybe avoid being a super-2), and that would be me.
Posted by Joebreidey
I'm with you Joseph. I am pleased with his progress, but I just don't see what the rush in bringing him up is. If we had no other option for SS, that would be one thing. However, Aviles should be solid there, both offensively and defensively. Not great, but solid.
FTR, I am not one who is that concerned about what Iglesias does offensively. I much prefer a defensively minded SS over an offensive one any day of the week, and I think our offense will be fine either way. Again, I just don't understand the need to rush him up when he would likely benefit from some more seasoning at AAA.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:21 PM EST
- RedSoxKimmi
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I understand that defensive stats are not perfect, but just for some point of reference as to what Iglesias might save this team in runs defensively:
The best SS in terms of DRS from Fangraphs last year was Brendan Ryan at 18 DRS in 1060.2 innings.
Elvus Andrus had 13 DRS in 1261.1 innings.
Scutaro saved one run defensively in 928.1 innings.
I don't know how Iglesias is going to compare to these guys, but it seems that realistically, we should expect at most that he saves 3 games with his glove over what Aviles might give us? Will that be enough to offset his lack of offense?
And just for laughs, Jeter's DRS came in at a whopping -18 . LOL
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:27 PM EST
- moonslav59
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I still think Iggy can save 70-100 hits more than Aviles this year. If that only amounts to only a 3 game swing, I'd be surprised.
I'm OK with Aviles at SS. I think he's a better fielder than Scoot and can hit as well. I like Punto as a back-up too.
However, I still think Iggy would be our best FT SS this year, even if he hits .190 compared to Aviles hitting .280ish.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:35 PM EST
- moonslav59
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Keep in mind that there are three bandewagons this time.
Those who think he should start on OD (you).
Those who think he'll never be any good (come and identify yourselves).
Those who are pleased with his progress, but think he needs additional seasoning (and maybe avoid being a super-2), and that would be me.
Fair enough.
I think it comes down to what people think is an acceptable offense for a great fielding SS and how that differential is compared to Aviles/Punto. I'm not sure about Iggy's length of ML service and how that might effect his years of team control on the back-end of his tenure here, and to me that may be the best reason for keeping him in AAA for X amount of days.
I have presented my reasons for wanting Iggy as our day 1 starting SS, but realize it is a close call.
I think that the loss of VTek's experience and influence on our staff, the loss of Papelbon, and the many question marks about our 2012 pitching staff makes the huge upgrade of fielding at our SS position a highly valuable equalizer.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:41 PM EST
- expitch
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Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : YA MEAN. AS FAR BACK AS LAST SEPTEMBER AFTER THE 7-20 DEMISE ????
Posted by Bill-806
Give us an exact date and time.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:43 PM EST
- moonslav59
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : IM WITH YOU MOON..... IGGY WILL OPEN UP AT SHORT, AND AVILIES WILL OPEN UP IN LEFT FOR HIS BAT WHILE CARL C. IS OUT..... THEY MAY TRY AND PUSH LAVARNWAY (NEXT CARLTON FISK) BACK TO AAA FOR A BIT, BUT HE WILL BE HERE SOOOONER, RATHER THAN LATER...... OH YES, I SEE DANNY AINGE MOVING RONDO IF HE CAN GET THE RIGHT DEAL !!!
Posted by Bill-806
Bill, I have always actually had a more difficult time reading your all CAPS posts than regular font, but I like your new bold addition. (My eyes are bad as well.)
I have been a strong advocate of Iggy at SS for a long time.
I have also been a strong advocate of Lava at C, once Papi took the arb. Originally, I had hoped Lava would be this year's DH and PT catcher, and once it became clear Papi was returning, I suggested trading Salty while his stock was highest. I think Lava is better than Salty right now, and trading Salty could have saved us a little money as well and maybe been part of a deal to get a quality 4th starter (i.e. Salty, Middlebrooks, and Bowden for Floyd). Since Lava and Shoppach both hit lefties better, I think the signing of Kelly (and Papi's return) sealed Lava's fate to start in AAA.
I feel more strongly about Iggy starting FT this year than Lava, but had Papi walked, I'd be equally for both here and now.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/10/2012 2:48 PM EST
- RedSoxKimmi
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Re: Opening Day SS:
I still think Iggy can save 70-100 hits more than Aviles this year. If that only amounts to only a 3 game swing, I'd be surprised. I'm OK with Aviles at SS. I think he's a better fielder than Scoot and can hit as well. I like Punto as a back-up too. However, I still think Iggy would be our best FT SS this year, even if he hits .190 compared to Aviles hitting .280ish.
Posted by moonslav59
I agree it's a close call, and I honestly don't know whether Iggy's defense offsets Aviles' offense. There's also the point about what impact his defense will have on our pitchers' confidence, as you alluded to. Having an excellent defense probably has an indirect effect on the pitchers in attacking the hitters more, resulting in more Ks and/or more outs recorded to other defenders.
All that said, my gut tells me that the Sox should start the season with Aviles at SS and let Iglesias continue his development at AAA. He can always be called up if he is needed.
This post has been removed.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 3:04 AM EDT
- kimsaysthis
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I still remember the first game I saw him in when he hit a ball, they threw the ball to first and he was already beyond just past the base. The first thing I thought, and said on the board was, "that guy is fast".
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 4:11 AM EDT
- Chilliwings
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Re: Opening Day SS:
I still think Iggy can save 70-100 hits more than Aviles this year. If that only amounts to only a 3 game swing, I'd be surprised. I'm OK with Aviles at SS. I think he's a better fielder than Scoot and can hit as well. I like Punto as a back-up too. However, I still think Iggy would be our best FT SS this year, even if he hits .190 compared to Aviles hitting .280ish.
Posted by moonslav59
Moon, I've seen your work on this before and it seems a reasonable argument. A question occurs however: is that potential 70-100 hits saved based on getting 70-100 more chances i.e. hits he turns into outs? If so, isn't it possible that some of the SS' increased chances are taken away from other fielders? Short fly balls the LF could have caught, IF flies that are always deferred to his superior glove, ground balls his range takes away from other fielder, etc?
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 7:10 AM EDT
- maxnsl
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Living in the area i have seen 3 games plus 2 on tv and i can tell you Aviles looks very good. He is very fast, not the strongest arm but servicable. As a matter of fact a number of rookies have looked good including Lars Anderson. I believe Iggy has as much chance of being on the oday roster as Lars. In other words none.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 9:50 AM EDT
- RedSoxKimmi
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we should expect at most that he saves 3 games with his glove over what Aviles might give us?
no idea how we got there
but that's probably the brownies
LOL Zac, I have no idea how we got here either. ;-)
The difference between Ryan and Scutaro was 17 runs, or about 2 games. Just making an educated guess on Iglesias over Aviles.
I haven't actually watched Iglesias play that much, and I don't know how he compares to Ryan. I was just trying to get some point of reference from last year's numbers.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 11:34 AM EDT
- bucky-dent
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mlb has the game on tuesday night then youll see how a real ss plays.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 11:55 AM EDT
- sportsbozo1
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
In Response to Re: Opening Day SS : He is hitting .286. It is difficult to find less support for starting someone than 2 hits. I like him, but thinks he needs at least a half season in AAA. Two singles is not going to change my mind.
Posted by Joebreidey
I don't care if he only hits .230 he's a better SS defensively Jeter and Nomar at this stage of their careers.
Re: Opening Day SS
posted at 3/11/2012 12:13 PM EDT
- Joebreidey
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In Response to
Re: Opening Day SS:
I still think Iggy can save 70-100 hits more than Aviles this year. If that only amounts to only a 3 game swing, I'd be surprised. I'm OK with Aviles at SS. I think he's a better fielder than Scoot and can hit as well. I like Punto as a back-up too. However, I still think Iggy would be our best FT SS this year, even if he hits .190 compared to Aviles hitting .280ish.
Posted by moonslav59
If a good defensive SS can save 70-100 hits a year, then no non-defensive SS would ever start. Janish hit .214. If we gave him credit for 100 hits saved over whomever, then is it the equivalent of him hitting .380 (100/600+.214). In this case, you would choose SS based purely on defense, with almost no regard to offense.
