Ortiz for MVP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Ortiz for MVP

    Any thoughts welcome, but where would the Red Sox be without Big Papi's bat in the lineup.

    Hetch

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Not going to happen.

    Sox4ever

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Extremely difficult for a DH to be MVP.  Ortiz is probably the Sox MVP, but not the league MVP.  Guys like Cabrera and Davis are the front runners by a country mile. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    i love the idea hetch.  but like dgale pointed out....really hard for a guy that doesnt play defense to get considerations.  maybe if detroit and baltimore fall out of it, ortiz for mvp would get some traction.  but he may get votes stolen from him by his 2nd baseman......

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    i love the idea hetch.  but like dgale pointed out....really hard for a guy that doesnt play defense to get considerations.  maybe if detroit and baltimore fall out of it, ortiz for mvp would get some traction.  but he may get votes stolen from him by his 2nd baseman......



    Slash, 

    I'm just throwing the thought out there to get others thoughts. Personally my thoughts are the same as you've posted. 

    For a DH to become an MVP it would take a miracle. I can see it all now as well when Papi is retired and voting for the HOF comes up & it becomes an argument about his not being a full time player. I've read where sportscaster/media are saying for Ortiz to make it to the HOF he would need to reach 500HRs. For me Papi's numbers already speak to being voted in whether or not he reaches the 500hr mark. 

    Hetch

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    Slash, 

     

    I'm just throwing the thought out there to get others thoughts. Personally my thoughts are the same as you've posted. 

    For a DH to become an MVP it would take a miracle. I can see it all now as well when Papi is retired and voting for the HOF comes up & it becomes an argument about his not being a full time player. I've read where sportscaster/media are saying for Ortiz to make it to the HOF he would need to reach 500HRs. For me Papi's numbers already speak to being voted in whether or not he reaches the 500hr mark. 

    Hetch




    kind of ironic that a benckmark used for many position players over the yrs

    shouldn't be in play for a DH

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    If the clowns wouldn't even vote Pedro the MVP after one of the most dominating seasons in the history of MLB, they'll never give ot to a DH.

    Even if Papi played 1B all year in a decent fashion and was never hurt, I still think he shouldn't win the MVP.

    Aren't we forgetting Miggy?

    Sox4ever

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    Slash, 

     

    I'm just throwing the thought out there to get others thoughts. Personally my thoughts are the same as you've posted. 

    For a DH to become an MVP it would take a miracle. I can see it all now as well when Papi is retired and voting for the HOF comes up & it becomes an argument about his not being a full time player. I've read where sportscaster/media are saying for Ortiz to make it to the HOF he would need to reach 500HRs. For me Papi's numbers already speak to being voted in whether or not he reaches the 500hr mark. 

    Hetch




    kind of ironic that a benckmark used for many position players over the yrs

    shouldn't be in play for a DH




    There's no HOF position player with less than 500 HRs?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    also ironic that just 12 months ago some on the board(not saying anyone on this thread) was screaming that Ortiz was done, instead of just chalking it up to a team-wide falldown..

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    kind of ironic that a benchmark used for many position players over the yrs

    shouldn't be in play for a DH

     

    [/QUOTE]


    There's no HOF position player with less than 500 HRs?

     

    and it's never been a big part of the discussion ?

    is that not ironic

    is that all I said

     

    why not answer my question from yesterday

    does ferral lose any  MOY votes

    because lester stopped listening to him



     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    kind of ironic that a benchmark used for many position players over the yrs

    shouldn't be in play for a DH

     




    There's no HOF position player with less than 500 HRs?

     

    and it's never been a big part of the discussion ?

    is that not ironic

    is that all I said

     

    why not answer my question from yesterday

    does ferral lose any  MOY votes

    because lester stopped listening to him



    [/QUOTE]


    I don't know.

    That's why I'm asking.

    If there was a discussion about needing 500 HR to get into the HOF, I missed it, that's all.

    And, I didn't realize the Lester thing was a serious question.

    If you know Lester stopped listening to Farrell, you know more about thier conversations than I do.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    The only time a DH won a MVP was in 1979 and that was Don Baylor and it really should have been George Brett or Fred Lynn that won it that year.  Those guys had almost as good of an offensive season plus they played great defense.

    Fans tend to (and by FAR they do this) underestimate defense to the outcome of games.  Even a bad defender still adds value as the make hundreds of PO's within a season.  Think of it this way if you took the WORST right fielder in the game off his team and made the other team man 8 players; 2 in the outfield how many more runs would the other team score per game?

    That question may be next to impossible to quantify but it doesn't take a baseball wizerd to realize the improtance of Defense to outcome.  My my thoughts aren't shared by everyone but I have a VERY hard time viewing a DH as an MVP candidate.  No matter how good they are they only play half the game.

    To be perfectly honest as well; if we didn't have David Ortiz as a DH i'd probably be all for abolosing the DH.  Imagine if Pichers hit in the A.L. as well?  they'd probably come up in the minors hitting too and take more batting practice all the way up the ladder.  I wonder if that would lead to (at least slightly) better offensive performane for pitchers.  I also ponder on how that would change the value of draft picks as well.  Think of our #1 draft pick this year who was also regarded a top 2 round talent as a hitting centerfielder as well.  How much more valuable would that pick have been for us if that was how the game was played??? Maybe the difference in value would be marginal, but I still find the idea fascinating. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

     

    I don't know.

    That's why I'm asking.

     

    kind of sad

    cause that makes you either dishonest

    or pretty weak when it comes to mlb knowledge

     

     

     

    EDIT : maybe both

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    The only time a DH won a MVP was in 1979 and that was Don Baylor and it really should have been George Brett or Fred Lynn that won it that year.  Those guys had almost as good of an offensive season plus they played great defense.

    Fans tend to (and by FAR they do this) underestimate defense to the outcome of games.  Even a bad defender still adds value as the make hundreds of PO's within a season.  Think of it this way if you took the WORST right fielder in the game off his team and made the other team man 8 players; 2 in the outfield how many more runs would the other team score per game?

    That question may be next to impossible to quantify but it doesn't take a baseball wizerd to realize the improtance of Defense to outcome.  My my thoughts aren't shared by everyone but I have a VERY hard time viewing a DH as an MVP candidate.  No matter how good they are they only play half the game.

    To be perfectly honest as well; if we didn't have David Ortiz as a DH i'd probably be all for abolosing the DH.  Imagine if Pichers hit in the A.L. as well?  they'd probably come up in the minors hitting too and take more batting practice all the way up the ladder.  I wonder if that would lead to (at least slightly) better offensive performane for pitchers.  I also ponder on how that would change the value of draft picks as well.  Think of our #1 draft pick this year who was also regarded a top 2 round talent as a hitting centerfielder as well.  How much more valuable would that pick have been for us if that was how the game was played??? Maybe the difference in value would be marginal, but I still find the idea fascinating. 




    I agree that fans tend to undervalue defense.

    At the same time, I have a hard time punishing a player simply because he plays a postion that doesn't play the field.

    DH is MLB mandated postion in the lineup. As such, they should get the same considerations for MVP or HOF as other players.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

     

    I don't know.

    That's why I'm asking.

     

    kind of sad

    cause that makes you either dishonest

    or pretty weak when it comes to mlb knowledge

     

     

     

    EDIT : maybe both

     




    Whatever Zac.

     

    My mlb knowledge may not be as lofty as yours.

    But, my posts don't need to be translated either. Wink

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP


    I always love the "He doesnt play the field " argument...David Ortiz plays the position he is asked to play, not one that was created for him.....he shouldnt be penalized in MVP voting because of it.....you are either Valuable to your team or not based on what postion they ask you to play and how you perform. If Offensively Papi ends up with similarly impactful numbers as Cabrera, why should Cabrera get the edge for playing 3b when his play at 3b is worse than the league average and he actually costs his team runs by them playing him at 3b? It is the same with HOF voting......does anyone think that if the DH didnt exist in the AL, that the manager wouldnt find a position to put a bat like Papi's or Edgar Martinez...they are not playing postions because they are so horrible in the field....they are not playing the field because their is a position that exists that allows the team to use their bat without playing in the field and use a superior fielder in the field.....if the Dh had existed in the 60's, after Mantle blew out his knees, is there any doubt he would have been a DH rather than a 1B man?...would that have made him less Hall worthy? To me, to vote for an MVP, you look at where his team would have or did end up without or with him....and it shouldnt matter what position he plays including Pitchers like Pedro....its not best player, its not best stats....its most valuable. Rigth now, it is probably Miggy, but the season is half over, so if papi contiunes to be the dominant force he has been...he should get full consideration for MVP 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to tomnev's comment:


    I always love the "He doesnt play the field " argument...David Ortiz plays the position he is asked to play, not one that was created for him.....he shouldnt be penalized in MVP voting because of it.....you are either Valuable to your team or not based on what postion they ask you to play and how you perform. If Offensively Papi ends up with similarly impactful numbers as Cabrera, why should Cabrera get the edge for playing 3b when his play at 3b is worse than the league average and he actually costs his team runs by them playing him at 3b? It is the same with HOF voting......does anyone think that if the DH didnt exist in the AL, that the manager wouldnt find a position to put a bat like Papi's or Edgar Martinez...they are not playing postions because they are so horrible in the field....they are not playing the field because their is a position that exists that allows the team to use their bat without playing in the field and use a superior fielder in the field.....if the Dh had existed in the 60's, after Mantle blew out his knees, is there any doubt he would have been a DH rather than a 1B man?...would that have made him less Hall worthy? To me, to vote for an MVP, you look at where his team would have or did end up without or with him....and it shouldnt matter what position he plays including Pitchers like Pedro....its not best player, its not best stats....its most valuable. Rigth now, it is probably Miggy, but the season is half over, so if papi contiunes to be the dominant force he has been...he should get full consideration for MVP 




    +1

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    You people are still missing the point.  So what if David Ortiz puts up superious offense numbers? because he still doesn't contribute to half the game.  You want to give him a silver slugger then thats fine.  I understand it's not his fault that he has to sit the bench every half inning but he's STILL SITTING THE BENCH and NOT fielding balls.  Like it or not, that is less contribution towards the total outcome of a game. 

    At the end of the day (all things considered) a guy is DH'ing because he has value at the plate but not as much in field....NOT as much value in the field as in less value.  If we are talking about the "most valuable player" then we are talking about the guy who does the MOST who adds the MOST value to the outcome of the game; the guy who does the MOST for his team to win.  Like it or not any guy that puts up good numbers and plays the field is always going to be adding more value.  

    You can call it what you want to call it but a DH is never going to be as valuable as a guy who puts up similar numbers and plays SS, or who plays 1B. 

    The argument that the player is "playing the position the are asked to play is not their fault" is invalid.  Yes he is playing a position he was asked to play, that doesn't mean that he isn't contributing less to the outcome of the game; because he is.   And yes I understand that they would be finding a position to play if a DH didn't exist....but A.) usually these guys are DH's because their defense is inferior and B.) like it or not they are still sitting the on bench 50% of the time more than the other position players.  You don't add value to your team by "hypothetical defens plays"

    50% of the game they are sitting the bench.  You cann't be the most valuable player in the entire league when 50% of the time you are sitting the bench.  There really shouldn't be an argument here.  You can call it what you want to call it but either way you look at it you are discounting defense. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    and all this is besides an even bigger point.  Ortiz is not the best offensive player in the league, he's up there but not the best.  And it's awfully hard to make the argument that he does the most for this offense when the Sox are #1 in almost every offensive category.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Also to say that we should discount defense because Ortiz is asked to play offense is a little ridiculous for another reason too.   I don't understand why we should think "oh well David Ortiz only bats so we should focus on how well he does there to determine how valuable he is"

    Are we talking about Total value added to the outcome of the game.

    Or are we talking about one facet of the game.

    Because I could say that Player c.  Who sits the bench but is asked to pinch run is 20/20 in stolen base attempts off the bench causes passed balls by distracting the defense and has scored 5 game winning runs so because he is the best at what he does he deserves the MVP. Now that is a ridiculous notion because I disregard everything he could do as an everyday player at the plate...but you guys disregard everything a player would do with a glove during 50% of the game.  So which is it? is it the player who does the best at "what he's asked to do" or is it the player who overall is the most Valuable and adds the most production towards game results? you can't have it both ways.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    The only time a DH won a MVP was in 1979 and that was Don Baylor and it really should have been George Brett or Fred Lynn that won it that year.  Those guys had almost as good of an offensive season plus they played great defense.

    Fans tend to (and by FAR they do this) underestimate defense to the outcome of games.  Even a bad defender still adds value as the make hundreds of PO's within a season.  Think of it this way if you took the WORST right fielder in the game off his team and made the other team man 8 players; 2 in the outfield how many more runs would the other team score per game?

    That question may be next to impossible to quantify but it doesn't take a baseball wizerd to realize the improtance of Defense to outcome.  My my thoughts aren't shared by everyone but I have a VERY hard time viewing a DH as an MVP candidate.  No matter how good they are they only play half the game.

    To be perfectly honest as well; if we didn't have David Ortiz as a DH i'd probably be all for abolosing the DH.  Imagine if Pichers hit in the A.L. as well?  they'd probably come up in the minors hitting too and take more batting practice all the way up the ladder.  I wonder if that would lead to (at least slightly) better offensive performane for pitchers.  I also ponder on how that would change the value of draft picks as well.  Think of our #1 draft pick this year who was also regarded a top 2 round talent as a hitting centerfielder as well.  How much more valuable would that pick have been for us if that was how the game was played??? Maybe the difference in value would be marginal, but I still find the idea fascinating. 



    It's a bit of an overstatement to say Baylor was a DH in 1979. He played just 65 games as a DH and 97 in the OF (1 at 1B). Maybe it was the most games as a DH that a MVP played -- don't know for sure but it's possible. As a reference, Rice played 101 games in the OF in 1978 and was DH for 49.

    As for Ortiz, if he keeps up this pace, the only way he'd win MVP is if Chris Davis AND Cabrera get hurt and don't play the last two months or have MAJOR offensive collapses.

    Davis or Cabrera likely will be MVP and that has less to do with Ortiz being DH and more to do with the fact that their numbers should be better -- if for no other reason than Ortiz missed the first 20 games (or whatever the number was).

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Also If you discount the fact that Ortiz doesn't play defense and just focus on his offensive numbers then you are being unfair to every single player that has put up as good numbers or even close to as good numbers and added a lot of value to their team on defense.

    Lets say David Oritz finishes the year with .300/.400/.500 line with 35 HR's and 120 RBI's

    now lets say another player finishes the year with a .290/.385/.480 line with 32 HR's and 105 RBI's but that person wins the Gold Glove and has multiple plays that prevented runs from scoring, with some of those plays effecting the outcome of the game.  That second player is adding much more value to the team and having a larger impact on the team winning and wins the MVP every time.  and they should. 

     

    When it comes down to it, I'm not trying to say David Ortiz or a DH shouldn't be able to win an MVP, but I am saying I don't think they every would.  Because there will always be at least 1 player who has offensive numbers at least close to a DH's with superior value added on defense.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Also If you discount the fact that Ortiz doesn't play defense and just focus on his offensive numbers then you are being unfair to every single player that has put up as good numbers or even close to as good numbers and added a lot of value to their team on defense.

    Lets say David Oritz finishes the year with .300/.400/.500 line with 35 HR's and 120 RBI's

    now lets say another player finishes the year with a .290/.385/.480 line with 32 HR's and 105 RBI's but that person wins the Gold Glove and has multiple plays that prevented runs from scoring, with some of those plays effecting the outcome of the game.  That second player is adding much more value to the team and having a larger impact on the team winning and wins the MVP every time.  and they should. 

     

    When it comes down to it, I'm not trying to say David Ortiz or a DH shouldn't be able to win an MVP, but I am saying I don't think they every would.  Because there will always be at least 1 player who has offensive numbers at least close to a DH's with superior value added on defense.




    The other player absolutely wins the MVP in that example.

    What if the .290 hitter is an absolute butcher at his position and has to be replaced late in the game for defensive purposes?

    Does that add to his value, over someone that doesn't play a position?

     

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