Ortiz for MVP

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Also If you discount the fact that Ortiz doesn't play defense and just focus on his offensive numbers then you are being unfair to every single player that has put up as good numbers or even close to as good numbers and added a lot of value to their team on defense.

    Lets say David Oritz finishes the year with .300/.400/.500 line with 35 HR's and 120 RBI's

    now lets say another player finishes the year with a .290/.385/.480 line with 32 HR's and 105 RBI's but that person wins the Gold Glove and has multiple plays that prevented runs from scoring, with some of those plays effecting the outcome of the game.  That second player is adding much more value to the team and having a larger impact on the team winning and wins the MVP every time.  and they should. 

     

    When it comes down to it, I'm not trying to say David Ortiz or a DH shouldn't be able to win an MVP, but I am saying I don't think they every would.  Because there will always be at least 1 player who has offensive numbers at least close to a DH's with superior value added on defense.

     




    The other player absolutely wins the MVP in that example.

     

    What if the .290 hitter is an absolute butcher at his position and has to be replaced late in the game for defensive purposes?

    Does that add to his value, over someone that doesn't play a position?

    [/QUOTE]

    Obviously someone who is a butcher can be a defensive liability, but it's also all in perspective as well.  The worst defensive player in the game still makes several hundred defensive plays more than you average DH.  He is still contributing something on defense (at least more than a DH) Yes you can make the argument that inferiour defense should reduce a players value (and I would agree with that argument) BUT that is all relative to every other player out their in the field.  All I'm trying to say here is that Both Offense and both Defense add to the outcome of the game, and when you combine them both there is ALWAYS going to be some players out there who are putting up the superior offensive numbers and play some pretty good D as well.  And while I don't want to discount ANYONE from consideration I just don't see a guy who only plays half the game as adding enough "value" to win the award. 

    Think of Dustin Pedrioa and the year he had when he won the MVP.  His defense was GG that year, would you say that a player who put up the exact identical numbers but was a butcher in the field would be less valuable? Of course you would, so that player that puts up the numbers and the defense is surely to always be there. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    It's not like anyone is saying a DH shouldn't be "able" to win an MVP, more than I'm saying a DH won't win.  I'm saying he won't win because I think there will always be a player who puts up the offensive numbers and contributes on defense to justify the award over a DH....actually I think there would at least a dozen of them every year. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    It's not like anyone is saying a DH shouldn't be "able" to win an MVP, more than I'm saying a DH won't win.  I'm saying he won't win because I think there will always be a player who puts up the offensive numbers and contributes on defense to justify the award over a DH....actually I think there would at least a dozen of them every year. 




    Man, you REALLY don't like the DH, do you? LOL

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    It's not like anyone is saying a DH shouldn't be "able" to win an MVP, more than I'm saying a DH won't win.  I'm saying he won't win because I think there will always be a player who puts up the offensive numbers and contributes on defense to justify the award over a DH....actually I think there would at least a dozen of them every year. 

     




    Man, you REALLY don't like the DH, do you? LOL

     

    [/QUOTE]

    this has nothing to do with liking/disliking the DH...I just don't think it's possible for a DH to do enough to justify them not contributing to 50% of the game that all the other position players do every day. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    It's not like anyone is saying a DH shouldn't be "able" to win an MVP, more than I'm saying a DH won't win.  I'm saying he won't win because I think there will always be a player who puts up the offensive numbers and contributes on defense to justify the award over a DH....actually I think there would at least a dozen of them every year. 

     

     




    Man, you REALLY don't like the DH, do you? LOL

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    this has nothing to do with liking/disliking the DH...I just don't think it's possible for a DH to do enough to justify them not contributing to 50% of the game that all the other position players do every day. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It was joke, Ct. Take a breath...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Personally, I think it's disgusting that DH's get snubbed for MVP because they don't play defense, yet it's OK for closer to not only win the Cy Young but also the MVP.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to royf19's comment:

    Personally, I think it's disgusting that DH's get snubbed for MVP because they don't play defense, yet it's OK for closer to not only win the Cy Young but also the MVP.



    So we should focus on Defense and discount half the game? what do you think about my argument that a Bench player or a pinch runner should be considered as well?

    I don't think some of you are understanding the argument.  It's not that ORTIZ is being "snubbed" its' acknowledging that there is always going to be some other player out there with almost as good to better offensive numbers who also happens to play good defense and that's 50% of the game.  I think people are discounting defense here and that is not fair. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Find me ONE year were a player got snubbed for being the MVP as a DH.?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    a DH plays half the game.  Should a bench player be considered for MVP if he plays 10% of the game but has 162/game average better stats than evey other player in the league????????????????????????

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    You people are still missing the point.  So what if David Ortiz puts up superious offense numbers? because he still doesn't contribute to half the game.  You want to give him a silver slugger then thats fine.  I understand it's not his fault that he has to sit the bench every half inning but he's STILL SITTING THE BENCH and NOT fielding balls.  Like it or not, that is less contribution towards the total outcome of a game. 

    At the end of the day (all things considered) a guy is DH'ing because he has value at the plate but not as much in field....NOT as much value in the field as in less value.  If we are talking about the "most valuable player" then we are talking about the guy who does the MOST who adds the MOST value to the outcome of the game; the guy who does the MOST for his team to win.  Like it or not any guy that puts up good numbers and plays the field is always going to be adding more value.  

    You can call it what you want to call it but a DH is never going to be as valuable as a guy who puts up similar numbers and plays SS, or who plays 1B. 

    The argument that the player is "playing the position the are asked to play is not their fault" is invalid.  Yes he is playing a position he was asked to play, that doesn't mean that he isn't contributing less to the outcome of the game; because he is.   And yes I understand that they would be finding a position to play if a DH didn't exist....but A.) usually these guys are DH's because their defense is inferior and B.) like it or not they are still sitting the on bench 50% of the time more than the other position players.  You don't add value to your team by "hypothetical defens plays"

    50% of the game they are sitting the bench.  You cann't be the most valuable player in the entire league when 50% of the time you are sitting the bench.  There really shouldn't be an argument here.  You can call it what you want to call it but either way you look at it you are discounting defense. 

     



    Using this logic and argument a pitcher in the American league should not be in consideration for the MVP. Sorry but I cannot go along with this point of view. The DH is just as valid a poisition as a pitcher and should be considered MVP consideration if that player is valuable to his teams winning performance. Your argument fails.

     

    Hetch

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    I'm not saying the DH position shouldn't be considered, lol how many times do I have to say this.  I just don't think you will ever have a DH win it because there will always be a position player more valuable.  Because there's always going to be some ghas that has more oppirtunitys to add "value" to the team when they play defense.  If you look at the top offensive players in the game they are also players that add a value on defense.  Think about Jacoby Ellsburys 2011 season or mike trouts year last year, or think about some of Alex Rodriguez's seasons in his prime (steroid argument aside).  I'm not in anyway saying a DH shouldn't be "able" to win an MVP i just don't think it is possible for one to be more "valuable" to their team than the top position player.

    You say point is invalid then prove me wrong; answer my question from before.  What DH was ever snobed an MVP award???

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    Hugh....I was never saying I thought that currently Papi should win the DH ....just that he shouldnt be discluded because he is a DH....as I said Cabrera's defensive Saber stats shows he cost the Tigers runs with his defense, so he wouild be more valuable to the team by being their DH then by being their 3B....Yaz was a DH at the end of his career not because he was a horrible fileder but because of his age, their were better defensive options at 1b....I totally agree with you that when viewing an MVP candidate, his total added Value to the team should be considered....offensive Defensive and Intangibles....so you are also right that would be a Dh like papi at a disadvantage, but if all the games were played this year and Papi and Miggy ended up with almost identical offensive #'s, is Miggy more worthy because he played a lousy 3B? Of course not.....and I also disagree that Defene/Offense is a 50/50 thing....David could be the best 1b of all time and 50% of his value would not come from defense if he is creating over 250 runs offensively.....yes a DH would have to have a superb year and that offensive year would have to be better than the offense of very good defensive players, but right now, if Papi ended up with stats on the pace he is on and the Sox win the Division, and the Orioles and Angels do not make the playoffs(which they are not now), IMHO, only Cabrera  is ahead of him in the MVP race, because the Tigers are in the playoffs, with Beltre and Pedey in the competition also becuase of theri offense and defense. To me the MVP has to come from a playoff team unless the player has an all time year, because I dont see much value in "but the team would have finished last without them"   If Cabrera wins another triple Crown, even if the Indians were to edge them out for the division, that would be an All time year and for that I would make an exception to my "playoff" bias.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP

    For what it's worth i think the people who vote for the MVP by far underrate defense.  Im not saying it should be 50/50 but maybe more like 40/60 when the sports writers seem to weigh to weigh it 20/80.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: Ortiz for MVP


    No way does Ortiz win the MVP...not with Cabrara and Davis both having better seasons. What's funny is that both of those guys don't get paid for their fielding and for the most part their teams would probably rather have them DH. Ortiz is one of the top 5 hitters in the league and what he has done this year has been incredible. Another funny thing is that pitchers can win the MVP...Verlander did it in 2011 and he didn't bat so he was just playing on the defensive side of things much like Ortiz just plays the offensive side.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share