Ortiz looking for 2 years

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:
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    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
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    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
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    I wonder how people will react if the Sox don't re-sign Ortiz, but also don't spend the money they would have spent on Ortiz.

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    It will get spent, most likely, though not next year. Red Sox fans are generally savvy and realize that this is a rebuilding period. There is absolutely no point at all in giving Ortiz two years when there is a significant possibility that he could drag the 2014 team down by occupying a roster spot and needed payroll, thereby impeding a run for a playoff spot that year. If he gets two years the second year should be a club option; let him EARN his second year here. If he walks, he walks. Later on, when his career is over, if he wants to retire as a Red Sox, they can sign him to a one day contract and make that happen. As Fred said, this is a ruthless business. There is no room for sentiment.

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    You are basically saying either improve the pitching and make the offensive worse or maintian the status quo. You can sign Ortiz and still add an arm or two.

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    I am saying that this is a two year project. I have no problem signing Ortiz for next year for a fair price. I DO have a problem signing him for two years. The risks involved (production, injury etc) should be born by HIM, not the team. If he produces next year then we can sign him for 2014 too via team option. We ALSO need an arm or two. Who out there can be obtained for a reasonable price in terms of both cash and prospects that will turn the franchise around? I see some guys who will help, but no one who will be the final piece here. I am not willing to give up any of our young pitching prospects to get another #3-4 SP. We have enough of those already. Any two year plan involves signing Ortiz for one year with a team option for the second year.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    diminishing returns are for certain...nothing against papi but he's not worth 25 mil at this stage...and i dont agree with charity contracts....or else we wouldve kept Tek and wakefield....move on folks, its not 2004 anymore....its ok - promise

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    diminishing returns are for certain...nothing against papi but he's not worth 25 mil at this stage...and i dont agree with charity contracts....or else we wouldve kept Tek and wakefield....move on folks, its not 2004 anymore....its ok - promise

    [/QUOTE]

    Now, you might consider an achilles injury age-related, to which I have no arguement other than 'I don't think it is'.  But, other than that, what in the past 2 seasons have even remotely suggested diminishing returns?  He has been an absolute beast.  He has gotten better, in fact, each of the last two years.  Yes, it is a gamble that he finally fall off the againg slugger cliff, perhaps in year 2 of his hypothetical contract.  But, a. as a gambling man I don't make my decisions on pride or emotion.  Just on evidence at hand.  And evidence suggests Papi is going to be a middle of the order RBI, OPS monster next year.  Now, 2014?  Who knows.  Maybe its 50/50.  but, he would still be effective, if not the best of this Papi Rennaisance era.  And, unlike you, if he is worth say 7-8 million in 2014, i am happy to overpay 4-5 for him to retire a Red Stocking.

    But, seriously, dismissing Ortiz as over the hill is like, soooo 2009.  You can let go of your old rhetoric and accept that Papi's decline was way premature.  I have and I feel great.  It'll be ok.  Promise.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    i dont think he's over the hill, i think he will repeat what he did this year....hit well, get a little older and more injury prone...worth 30 mil over 2 years? i dont think so

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    i dont think he's over the hill, i think he will repeat what he did this year....hit well, get a little older and more injury prone...worth 30 mil over 2 years? i dont think so

    [/QUOTE]

    OK.  The gamble is on the injury-prone front then.  Fair enough.  He has had injury keep him out of chunks of the last two years.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbungle. Show mrbungle's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    I love Papi. It'd be great to have him next year.

     

    But...

     

    He's over 35. He's starting to show some signs of breaking down. He will want big money. Just too many question marks. 

    Which brings me to this: Josh Hamilton. Let Papi walk. Use that money on a player that can give us 40 HR's and 125 RBI's. Risks? Sure, name one player without risks. But, I'd rather put my money on Hamilton than Papi at this point in time. 

     

    Love you Papi but, Josh Hamilton would contribute more as a fielder and hitter. The way things are now, it's probably that Big Papi would give us perhaps 120 games per season. Nick Swisher would be a good pick up too IMO. If we don't have to give up too much we should also make a move for Justin Upton. He's signed for $38.5 million the next 3 years. A relaitive bargain with a big upside. 

     

    Ortiz may very well sign for big money and put up good numbers next year but, time to go with youth. That achilles injury worries me too. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I love Papi. It'd be great to have him next year.

     

    But...

     

    He's over 35. He's starting to show some signs of breaking down. He will want big money. Just too many question marks. 

    Which brings me to this: Josh Hamilton. Let Papi walk. Use that money on a player that can give us 40 HR's and 125 RBI's. Risks? Sure, name one player without risks. But, I'd rather put my money on Hamilton than Papi at this point in time. 

     

    Love you Papi but, Josh Hamilton would contribute more as a fielder and hitter. The way things are now, it's probably that Big Papi would give us perhaps 120 games per season. Nick Swisher would be a good pick up too IMO. If we don't have to give up too much we should also make a move for Justin Upton. He's signed for $38.5 million the next 3 years. A relaitive bargain with a big upside. 

     

    Ortiz may very well sign for big money and put up good numbers next year but, time to go with youth. That achilles injury worries me too. 

    [/QUOTE]

    For my money, no.  Hamilton is showing signs of breaking down 2.  And with Papi, though certainly 2014 is a risk, the club would be out 1 year at 12-13 million, vs. out maybe 5-6 years at 20-25 million.  I'll take the shorter term, surer thing, given the contract that Hamilton will certainly command.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I love Papi. It'd be great to have him next year.

     

    But...

     

    He's over 35. He's starting to show some signs of breaking down. He will want big money. Just too many question marks. 

    Which brings me to this: Josh Hamilton. Let Papi walk. Use that money on a player that can give us 40 HR's and 125 RBI's. Risks? Sure, name one player without risks. But, I'd rather put my money on Hamilton than Papi at this point in time. 

     

    Love you Papi but, Josh Hamilton would contribute more as a fielder and hitter. The way things are now, it's probably that Big Papi would give us perhaps 120 games per season. Nick Swisher would be a good pick up too IMO. If we don't have to give up too much we should also make a move for Justin Upton. He's signed for $38.5 million the next 3 years. A relaitive bargain with a big upside. 

     

    Ortiz may very well sign for big money and put up good numbers next year but, time to go with youth. That achilles injury worries me too. 

    [/QUOTE]


    In the last 5 years, Ortiz has averaged 128 G/yr.

    Hamilton; 129 G/yr.

    They both seem like risky propsitions.

    The difference is Ortiz is probably going to ask for 24-26 mil for two years.

    Think Hamilton will sign for that?

     

    Swisher would be ok, unless the sox make it back to he post season.

    I'd rather keep Ross...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

     

    Ortiz is looking for a two-year contract.

    Ibanez has hit two, two-run homers during the playoffs.

    A-Rod hit on two female fans.

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Ortiz is looking for a two-year contract.

    Ibanez has hit two, two-run homers during the playoffs.

    A-Rod hit on two female fans.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    whoa this is getting deep.  i better go play lotto.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to readsocks' comment:

    NO WAY he gets a penny until he proves he is 1000000000 pecent injury free. I want his lazy butt running the bases "full speed" ten times per day for two weeks, sprints, and at bats before I even consider a contract.


    And we all know how much you love the big man. Are you even a Red Sox fan?

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to readsocks' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to carnie's comment:
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    I seem to remember reading last year where David said that he would have taken 2/25 rather than go to arbitration. I'd give it to him. Even if it turns out to be a wheelchair contract, David has earned his wheelchair contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    David has earned his wheelchair contract??? seriously? You mean the Red Sox didn't pay him during his long tenure here? Well, if he was working for free I agree, he deserves a "wheelchair contract, but that is not the case, he was paid EXTREMELY WELL during all of his years here.. he deserves nothing more than the next guy, trust me, an achiles injury on a big man like that is NOT something that should be taken lightly when handing over guaranteed money. IF the Sox have learned ANYTHING during these horrific contracts, this should be one of them.....

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    I'd go look up some of your old posts, but your profile is private. Pretty typical for a troll. Every post I've ever seen from you though, has been filled with hate for David. And 2 years isn't 7 or 8. It wasn't the size of the contracts the Sox dumped so much as the length that was crippling the Sox. But please don't let logic get in the way of your Big Papi hate fest. God I miss the ignore button.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to readsocks' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I seem to remember reading last year where David said that he would have taken 2/25 rather than go to arbitration. I'd give it to him. Even if it turns out to be a wheelchair contract, David has earned his wheelchair contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    David has earned his wheelchair contract??? seriously? You mean the Red Sox didn't pay him during his long tenure here? Well, if he was working for free I agree, he deserves a "wheelchair contract, but that is not the case, he was paid EXTREMELY WELL during all of his years here.. he deserves nothing more than the next guy, trust me, an achiles injury on a big man like that is NOT something that should be taken lightly when handing over guaranteed money. IF the Sox have learned ANYTHING during these horrific contracts, this should be one of them.....

    [/QUOTE]


    In relation to what a lot of folks make, even average players are paid "extremely well"

    In 2003, Ortiz was 1.25 million. The average player salary was 2.5 mil.

    Think Ortiz was below average that year?

     

    In 2004, Ortiz earned 4.6 mil.  Better than average, but Ortiz played a LOT better than average.


    The next two years, he earned 5.6 and 6.5 respectively. And was one of the best hitters in the game.


    The Sox got a bargain in the first four years of Ortiz' career here.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I love Papi. It'd be great to have him next year.

     

    But...

     

    He's over 35. He's starting to show some signs of breaking down. He will want big money. Just too many question marks. 

    Which brings me to this: Josh Hamilton. Let Papi walk. Use that money on a player that can give us 40 HR's and 125 RBI's. Risks? Sure, name one player without risks. But, I'd rather put my money on Hamilton than Papi at this point in time. 

     

    Love you Papi but, Josh Hamilton would contribute more as a fielder and hitter. The way things are now, it's probably that Big Papi would give us perhaps 120 games per season. Nick Swisher would be a good pick up too IMO. If we don't have to give up too much we should also make a move for Justin Upton. He's signed for $38.5 million the next 3 years. A relaitive bargain with a big upside. 

     

    Ortiz may very well sign for big money and put up good numbers next year but, time to go with youth. That achilles injury worries me too. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Papi has played in 140+ games 3 times and 150+ games 4 times since coming to Boston. Getting hit on the wrist is the only other time that cost him games and production. hes proved to be very durable.

    I would offer a 1 yrs 13mm deal with a vesting option based on games played at the same price. You could have a lower base salary as well with performance bonuses.

    Hamilton is way to risky, moreso than papi, for his price tag. Id rather eat 13mm for 1 year than be saddled with 100mm for 5yrs. Also, papi has proved he can thrive in the Boston atmosphere.

    P.S.

    Love the band Mr. Bungle. Mike patton is a crazy man...

    http://youtu.be/XQ7p623CBvI

    http://youtu.be/UnLNXquIBVs

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

     

    I have a feeling that the Yankees might make an aggressive offer to Ortiz. 

    When it comes to free agency, anything can happen.  Just ask Johnny Damon. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have a feeling that the Yankees might make an aggressive offer to Ortiz. 

    When it comes to free agency, anything can happen.  Just ask Johnny Damon. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Especially if they move A-Rod. Papi would have a chance at 50Hr with that very short RF porch in NY, and he knows this.

    the Sox should not mess around with this and play games with him. 13mm per should easily get it done.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have a feeling that the Yankees might make an aggressive offer to Ortiz. 

    When it comes to free agency, anything can happen.  Just ask Johnny Damon. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Especially if they move A-Rod. Papi would have a chance at 50Hr with that very short RF porch in NY, and he knows this.

    the Sox should not mess around with this and play games with him. 13mm per should easily get it done.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree with you. 

    Hopefully, Cherington wraps up a deal with Ortiz right away. 

    It is going to be a very busy offseason for both the Red Sox and Yankees. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have a feeling that the Yankees might make an aggressive offer to Ortiz. 

    When it comes to free agency, anything can happen.  Just ask Johnny Damon. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Especially if they move A-Rod. Papi would have a chance at 50Hr with that very short RF porch in NY, and he knows this.

    the Sox should not mess around with this and play games with him. 13mm per should easily get it done.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree with you. 

    Hopefully, Cherington wraps up a deal with Ortiz right away. 

    It is going to be a very busy offseason for both the Red Sox and Yankees. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    From what I'm hearing coming out of New York, it looks like A-Rod is going to be shipped out of town----and that puts Big Papi in the Yankee cross hairs, especially since  their hitting went South in the playoffs and they might want to add a big bat in their lineup.  I think because of that Ortiz might just get that two year contract he wants.  Once again, though, we will see the Red Sox once again doing things out of fear of what the Yankees MIGHT do.  Two WS titles or not, the Red Sox still worry themselves sick about the Yankees.  Then, again, we saw how they swooped in and got Damon late in 2005 and then jumped in and took Teixeira away from us in late 2008 when Prune Face Henry folded the tent and choked up in the negotiations.

     

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have a feeling that the Yankees might make an aggressive offer to Ortiz. 

    When it comes to free agency, anything can happen.  Just ask Johnny Damon. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Especially if they move A-Rod. Papi would have a chance at 50Hr with that very short RF porch in NY, and he knows this.

    the Sox should not mess around with this and play games with him. 13mm per should easily get it done.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree with you. 

    Hopefully, Cherington wraps up a deal with Ortiz right away. 

    It is going to be a very busy offseason for both the Red Sox and Yankees. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    From what I'm hearing coming out of New York, it looks like A-Rod is going to be shipped out of town----and that puts Big Papi in the Yankee cross hairs, especially since  their hitting went South in the playoffs and they might want to add a big bat in their lineup.  I think because of that Ortiz might just get that two year contract he wants.  Once again, though, we will see the Red Sox once again doing things out of fear of what the Yankees MIGHT do.  Two WS titles or not, the Red Sox still worry themselves sick about the Yankees.  Then, again, we saw how they swooped in and got Damon late in 2005 and then jumped in and took Teixeira away from us in late 2008 when Prune Face Henry folded the tent and choked up in the negotiations.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I think if they offered a 2/26 deal, even if the NYY topped it, Papi would stay. Hes made 100+mm here and I doubt he would leave over a couple million like Damon did. Just my opinion though.

    Now If the Sox decide to drag their feet and get cheap, Papi could, and should...walk.

    The NYY would have to eat most of AR's contract if he  goes south. I would guess at least 80mm which would work out to about 7-8mm per for the next 5 years...I would also tell him to bring a 1b mit, which could save another year or two of wear and tear.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Ortiz looking for 2 years

    In response to readsocks' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to carnie's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I seem to remember reading last year where David said that he would have taken 2/25 rather than go to arbitration. I'd give it to him. Even if it turns out to be a wheelchair contract, David has earned his wheelchair contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    David has earned his wheelchair contract??? seriously? You mean the Red Sox didn't pay him during his long tenure here? Well, if he was working for free I agree, he deserves a "wheelchair contract, but that is not the case, he was paid EXTREMELY WELL during all of his years here.. he deserves nothing more than the next guy, trust me, an achiles injury on a big man like that is NOT something that should be taken lightly when handing over guaranteed money. IF the Sox have learned ANYTHING during these horrific contracts, this should be one of them.....

    [/QUOTE]


    And just for the record, I stand by what I said there. David Ortiz has arguably had a bigger impact on Red Sox baseball than Ted Williams or Carl Yastrzemski. Without Big Papi there's no championship in 2004 and probably none in 2007 either. Or do you think the Angels would have been pitching to Manny if they hadn't just walked Big Papi? IMNSHO anyone who doesn't want to see the big man retire with the Olde Towne Team isn't much of a Red Sox fan. Maybe a Read Socks fan :)

     
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