Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]3rd paste n'cut from board loon...who has no ammo left in chamber.  Click...click...click Aceves is 5-inning wonder as starter. Who relieves him in 6th frame? Wheeler? Atchison? Douby? Then what does Tito do for BP depth for the next 4 starts...w/o Aceves? Click...click...click  Sounds from an empty skull.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    Two things. Ortiz should not be discussing the Sox rotation in public -- or the Tampa Bay pitching coach, for that matter. He is paid to hit, not to pontificate.
    He leaves the impression that his team has a manager who doesn't know who to start and a pitching coach who could learn a thing or two from an opposing pitching coach. 
    On the substance, Harness has it right.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : Two things. Ortiz should not be discussing the Sox rotation in public -- or the Tampa Bay pitching coach, for that matter. He is paid to hit, not to pontificate. He leaves the impression that his team has a manager who doesn't know who to start and a pitching coach who could learn a thing or two from an opposing pitching coach.  On the substance, Harness has it right.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Ex you got it right, Ortiz should not be making his wishes on running the team public. It also makes one wonder if there is some major turmoil in this clubhouse at this time.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    This is the  2nd or 3rd  time Papi  has spoken out  --   first was leaning into Terry's  after game Q+A  to   gripe about  a scoring decision..

    It makes one wonder about the team chemistry in general   as this team  certainly  seems  to be lacking that magic  especially when down a run or two  late in the game.

    Maybe next year Aceves can be a starter   right now  ...   there is a need where he is....
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    I think Ortiz's comments had good intentions. I wouldn't read too far into their supposed consequences. Further more, they were directed more to the pitching staff than management. I don't think entertaining the idea of starting Aceves is beyond reason. Crazier things have happened. Woud've been more realistic if Jenks and Wheeler were around and having good years. We could've dealt with an experiment if that were the case and worried less on it's repercussions. Let's see what Bedard brings tonight.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    You got   8-9  games left   would you rather use  Aceves    5-6   of those games  or at most   twice.

    He's not going to start in the playoffs     That's Beckett, Lester  probably Bedard..
    and if you have road games  in a big cavernous stadium  Lackey.(if needed).

    All hands in the pen..
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]I think the point is the starters can't even get to the bridge guy...the pressure on the offense is so great right now.  Score 7-8 runs or you lose.   Maybe if Aceves starts they are able to actually have 3-4 innings to get it going offensively.  It might now work, but right now it can't hurt to try...thats for sure.
    Posted by jarretfromportsmouth[/QUOTE]

    As a once here and there idea, I think you may be right. It's "now or never time", so drastic measures may be needed. Aceves has pitched in about 50 games this year and has over 100 IP. Most of those games, we were in it and he helped us stay in it.

    Since August 30th, Aceves has pitched in 8 games and 17 IP. As a starter in that stretch, he'd maybe have 3 starts for 15-17 IP. You are missing a point about ...

    "I think the point is the starters can't even get to the bridge guy.."

    Yes, many of our starters have been dreadful of late, but Aceves pitched in 4 run one losses, a one run win, a two-run loss and a 3-run loss in those 10 games. Had we pulled some of those losses out and won, not many would be wanting Aceves to start right now. We lost 5 close games that he kept us in it (actually, in one, he helped us lose).

    It's not an easy decision. Aceves only has 9 career starts. I think there's a reason for that. It's a small sample size, but his ERA is 4.18 as a starter and under 2.72 as a reliever. His WHIP: 1.394 to 1.013 (a huge differentail). His opponent's OPS is .722 to .601.

    I can see it now, we move Aceves to starter and get 1 start and maybe 2 relief games out of him, and we flounder trying to find a relief pitcher in 4-5 games that are "in it" but have no bridge guy.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Start 4 June 21 Padres 5 IP 4H 6BB 4K 4 ER 4 R 0 HR (marginal)

    Funny! This is "marginal" for Aceves, but throw the bum out for Wake. 4 ER in 5 IP is a 7.20 ERA for Wake. What is it for Aceves? 6 BB in 5 IP? Are you serious? A game WHIP of 2.000 is marginal?

    The fact is Aceves has been bad to "marginal" in half his games as a starter. If you use the same "marginal" criteria for Wake (Under 7.20 ERA and 2.00 WHIP in each start), Wake has been marginal or better in 15 of his 22 starts.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]3rd paste n'cut from board loon...who has no ammo left in chamber.  Click...click...click Aceves is 5-inning wonder as starter. Who relieves him in 6th frame? Wheeler? Atchison? Douby? Then what does Tito do for BP depth for the next 4 starts...w/o Aceves? Click...click...click  Sounds from an empty skull.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Okay, but is he better than Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, Weiland, four of the guys that have been starting?
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : As a once here and there idea, I think you may be right. It's "now or never time" , so drastic measures may be needed. Aceves has pitched in about 50 games this year and has over 100 IP. Most of those games, we were in it and he helped us stay in it. Since August 30th, Aceves has pitched in 8 games and 17 IP. As a starter in that stretch, he'd maybe have 3 starts for 15-17 IP. You are missing a point about ... " I think the point is the starters can't even get to the bridge guy.." Yes, many of our starters have been dreadful of late, but Aceves pitched in 4 run one losses, a one run win, a two-run loss and a 3-run loss in those 10 games. Had we pulled some of those losses out and won, not many would be wanting Aceves to start right now. We lost 5 close games that he kept us in it (actually, in one, he helped us lose). It's not an easy decision. Aceves only has 9 career starts. I think there's a reason for that. It's a small sample size, but his ERA is 4.18 as a starter and under 2.72 as a reliever. His WHIP: 1.394 to 1.013 (a huge differentail). His opponent's OPS is .722 to .601. I can see it now, we move Aceves to starter and get 1 start and maybe 2 relief games out of him, and we flounder trying to find a relief pitcher in 4-5 games that are "in it" but have no bridge guy.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Since September 5, Aceves has pitched in 6 games and the Red Sox record in those are 2-4. How much good does he do when the starters are behind every game and he comes into a game they are losing?

    He pitched 3 innings yesterday in a game Kyle Weiland started, and lost, and now he's unavailable until Wednesday. Did that help the team?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : As a once here and there idea, I think you may be right. It's "now or never time" , so drastic measures may be needed. Aceves has pitched in about 50 games this year and has over 100 IP. Most of those games, we were in it and he helped us stay in it. Since August 30th, Aceves has pitched in 8 games and 17 IP. As a starter in that stretch, he'd maybe have 3 starts for 15-17 IP. You are missing a point about ... " I think the point is the starters can't even get to the bridge guy.." Yes, many of our starters have been dreadful of late, but Aceves pitched in 4 run one losses, a one run win, a two-run loss and a 3-run loss in those 10 games. Had we pulled some of those losses out and won, not many would be wanting Aceves to start right now. We lost 5 close games that he kept us in it (actually, in one, he helped us lose). It's not an easy decision. Aceves only has 9 career starts. I think there's a reason for that. It's a small sample size, but his ERA is 4.18 as a starter and under 2.72 as a reliever. His WHIP: 1.394 to 1.013 (a huge differentail). His opponent's OPS is .722 to .601. I can see it now, we move Aceves to starter and get 1 start and maybe 2 relief games out of him, and we flounder trying to find a relief pitcher in 4-5 games that are "in it" but have no bridge guy.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Maybe for no better reason that it's just too late in the season to make a change like this. If Tito did it when DiceK went down. If he did it when Buchholz went down. Falls in the same manager category as " why would I stop going to Bard now? " type of situation. It's just too late. Sox were the best team in baseball for months and months. What worked then still has a chance of working now.

    I feel like the Sox need one and one thing only to go right and that's Bedard.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    2 problems with Aceves as a starter - it's been too long since he's had a high pitch count.  If it were in the middle of the season, they could send him to pawtucket to stretch him out.

    Problem 2 - making Aceves a starter weakens the BP.  So every 5th game, Aceves pitches into the 6th inning with a lead - who pitches the 7th?  Who pitches the 7th when Lester and Beckett leave the game after 6 with the lead?
     
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    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : Ex you got it right, Ortiz should not be making his wishes on running the team public. It also makes one wonder if there is some major turmoil in this clubhouse at this time.
    Posted by promise4you[/QUOTE]


    This is what came to mind for me as well.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

       AS  TED KENNEDY WOULD SAY.......   "SON, LOOKS LIKE MANNY ORTIZ WON'T BE WITH US NEXT YEAR" !!!!!  YUK,YUK,YUK !!!WinkCoolLaughing
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jarretfromportsmouth. Show jarretfromportsmouth's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]Yes, many of our starters have been dreadful of late, but Aceves pitched in 4 run one losses, a one run win, a two-run loss and a 3-run loss in those 10 games. Had we pulled some of those losses out and won, not many would be wanting Aceves to start right now. We lost 5 close games that he kept us in it (actually, in one, he helped us lose). It's not an easy decision. Aceves only has 9 career starts. I think there's a reason for that. It's a small sample size, but his ERA is 4.18 as a starter and under 2.72 as a reliever. His WHIP: 1.394 to 1.013 (a huge differentail). His opponent's OPS is .722 to .601. I can see it now, we move Aceves to starter and get 1 start and maybe 2 relief games out of him, and we flounder trying to find a relief pitcher in 4-5 games that are "in it" but have no bridge guy.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    This team does NOT come back and win games late.  so if Aceves holds them through the 4th, 5th, 6th, and maybe 7th it`s futile.  I can`t remember the last time they trailed late and pulled out a win.  I think you make some good points, and honestly I don`t know what the answer is.

    The only thing I know is starting pitcher is awful.  I`d rather see them battle to hold a lead, cause they clearly aren`t going to go get the lead in the latter stages of the game.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : Since September 5, Aceves has pitched in 6 games and the Red Sox record in those are 2-4. How much good does he do when the starters are behind every game and he comes into a game they are losing? He pitched 3 innings yesterday in a game Kyle Weiland started, and lost, and now he's unavailable until Wednesday. Did that help the team?
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    When were coming from behind and winning those close games as Aceves kept us in the game, nobody complained about his role. The middle relief role on this team is vital right now.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    I was thinking the exact same thing ... I give Papi a lot of credit for saying what many fans think, stop having these hacks like Weiland and Miller go out there and hand the ball to a guy that can actually get some outs. I'd throw Lackey in that same group but we pay him too much to sit him down, or at least that's what Theo would believe. 8 earned runs in 4.1 innings and a 6.49 ERA for the season!?!? If that isn't AA caliber pitching I'm not sure what is. Get Aceves in there!! Managing the staff has always been Tito's Achilles heel and it's blatantly obvious this season ... there is nowhere to hide his managing blunders or Theo's negligence in getting him some viable arms
     
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    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]Gammons just retorted that Aceves is needed to bridge the gap between starters who are only going 5-6 innings and Bard and Papelbon.Starters are not lasting long enough.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]
    I agree with Ortiz.  Let Wake & Morales shore up the bullpen.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : As a once here and there idea, I think you may be right. It's "now or never time" , so drastic measures may be needed. Aceves has pitched in about 50 games this year and has over 100 IP. Most of those games, we were in it and he helped us stay in it. Since August 30th, Aceves has pitched in 8 games and 17 IP. As a starter in that stretch, he'd maybe have 3 starts for 15-17 IP. You are missing a point about ... " I think the point is the starters can't even get to the bridge guy.." Yes, many of our starters have been dreadful of late, but Aceves pitched in 4 run one losses, a one run win, a two-run loss and a 3-run loss in those 10 games. Had we pulled some of those losses out and won, not many would be wanting Aceves to start right now. We lost 5 close games that he kept us in it (actually, in one, he helped us lose). It's not an easy decision. Aceves only has 9 career starts. I think there's a reason for that. It's a small sample size, but his ERA is 4.18 as a starter and under 2.72 as a reliever. His WHIP: 1.394 to 1.013 (a huge differentail). His opponent's OPS is .722 to .601. I can see it now, we move Aceves to starter and get 1 start and maybe 2 relief games out of him, and we flounder trying to find a relief pitcher in 4-5 games that are "in it" but have no bridge guy.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    The team won't stay "in" games without that critical bridge guy, unless pitchers start to go 7 frames.

    Read EX-Pitch's post again. I'm betting he too know's how important a good pitching coach is...and how detrimental an inneficient one can be. His handle says it.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]By Michael Whitmer, Globe Staff It might seem like there aren't many bright spots for the Red Sox right now, seeing as they've lost 10 of their past 12 games to watch a wild-card lead that had been nine games at the start of the month cut to 1 1/2. But the relief work of Alfredo Aceves certainly qualifies. Aceves has been so good, in fact, that David Ortiz thinks the Sox should consider giving the right-hander a start. Aceves pitched three scoreless innings today in the first game of a doubleheader with Baltimore, and even though the Sox lost, 6-5, he threw 53 pitches, giving up three hits and striking out four. "To be honest with you, the way things are going, he should be starting. It’s as simple as that," Ortiz said. "I think at one point, he might be a starter. It all depends what the front office decides, but he’s got good stuff, and we definitely need a guy that can come in and give us six or seven good innings. He seems like he’s capable to do it, so we’ll see." Aceves now has 12 relief appearances this season of at least three innings, which leads the majors. He's gone four straight outings without giving up a run, and has lowered his ERA to 2.74. "Aceves has been doing that time and time again," Sox manager Terry Francona said. "The one inning he got himself into a bind he pitched himself out of it. He’s done a tremendous job. I wish he was available in the second game; knowing Aceves, he’ll want to be."
    Posted by -EdithBunker-[/QUOTE]

    Aceves might be a very capable #4 next season behind Josh, Jon and Clay.  I agree Aceves should be starting considering how many games Weiland and Wake have struggled in but our "middle relief" is so poor management is afraid to commit.

    It's also obvious Lackey is in no way a capable #3 if we make the PS.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Making a starter out of Aceves is playing with fire.    He's already pitched more innings than he has for his career high.  Stretch him out next spring to replace Matsuzaka who won't be back until late in 2012 if at all.
    Get a long reliever in 2012 not named Albers to take over the role Aceves had.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    I was ok with leaving Aceves as a reliever and starting Wake and Miller, but when it comes to a point where you are pitching a mediocre Minor league guy who you arent expecting to give you any more innings than Aceves would, probably less, than Aceves should have started those games....it is Septemebr, you have an expanded Bullpen....if you get 5 from Aceves, or maybe 6.....you mix and match guys to get you to Bard and Paps......the fact of the matter is for those saying, dont you want Aceves to be able to be in more game, is that since August 1st we are 8-11 in games Aceves has pitched, in 6 of the 8 wins, we won by 6 runs or more, in one of the wins, Aceves blew the save and got the win.....and in the last, he got the win because he entered a game up 3-0 but Bedard only wnet 4 innings.....so I am not sure how pitching him in big lead games and losses his productive, whereas starting him in games that we are getting killed early with bad pitchers would have been
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Not a bad suggestion by Ortiz, but he needs to shut up. 
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    I don't get all the Ortiz Should Shut Up stuff.  I mean, yes, he shouldn't step on his manager's toes, but, on the other hand, thats just Papi Being Papi.  He has held court like that for years.  Sometimes he oversteps his bounds.  Sometimes he says stuff that isn't kosher.  But, nothing is going to change there.  I feel sure that Francona doesn't really care.  I mean, Papi has a point:  Aceves SHOULD be starting.  I mean, Weiland??  Really??  BUT, Papi isn't seeing the whole pitcher.  If our parade of 5-inning-wonders didn't have Aceves to fill in their starts, the current crisis would be no crisis at all because they would just be playing out the string.  So, nothing really offensive about Papi saying what he said.  Didn't seem very pointed.  Just a typical musing from the Papi Locker Court.  
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    He would  do ok but then the sox lose him for 5 days in the pen.
     
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