Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]When Ortiz starts hitting against tampa and the yankees, I will listen to his opinion.
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    OK, I'll give you Tampa, but he has shredded the Yankees this year.  
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

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    [QUOTE]I don't get all the Ortiz Should Shut Up stuff.  I mean, yes, he shouldn't step on his manager's toes, but, on the other hand, thats just Papi Being Papi.  He has held court like that for years.  Sometimes he oversteps his bounds.  Sometimes he says stuff that isn't kosher.  But, nothing is going to change there.  I feel sure that Francona doesn't really care.  I mean, Papi has a point:  Aceves SHOULD be starting.  I mean, Weiland??  Really??  BUT, Papi isn't seeing the whole pitcher.  If our parade of 5-inning-wonders didn't have Aceves to fill in their starts, the current crisis would be no crisis at all because they would just be playing out the string.  So, nothing really offensive about Papi saying what he said.  Didn't seem very pointed.  Just a typical musing from the Papi Locker Court.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    To say that someone is once again being himself is not to justify what is being said or done at a given moment. Frankly, I've always thought that Papi shoots his mouth off too much, even at times whines too much, and this time, whether he's right or wrong, overstepped the line between manager and player in public. When he's hot and flashing the big smile, it's easy to forget that he can also be a pain in the gee-gees. Right now, there is no more room for that kind of pain in Boston's gee-gees. While I doubt that there is any serious dissension on the club, why risk giving the impression that there is?  Even musing out loud can give that impression.
    Though he may not think so ( he's said as much ), he is, like his teammates, basically another employee of the Boston Red Sox, under the supervision of Terry Francona. Whether Terry minds is not strictly relevant. But my guess is that Terry probably thought but didn't say "stuff it." It's not early August. Terry is on the hot seat. In these circumstances, the last thing ( well, maybe not dead last ) that any manager wants is a player second-guessing him in public, no matter how off-handedly the comments are made. The message is still what counts. 
    Lousy judgment, at the least, Papi.
    And you are wrong -- for all the reasons given by several posters on this thread.

     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : To say that someone is once again being himself is not to justify what is being said or done at a given moment . Frankly, I've always thought that Papi shoots his mouth off too much, even at times whines too much, and this time, whether he's right or wrong, overstepped the line between manager and player in public. When he's hot and flashing the big smile, it's easy to forget that he can also be a pain in the gee-gees. Right now, there is no more room for that kind of pain in Boston's gee-gees. While I doubt that there is any serious dissension on the club, why risk giving the impression that there is?  Even musing out loud can give that impression. Though he may not think so ( he's said as much ), he is, like his teammates, basically another employee of the Boston Red Sox, under the supervision of Terry Francona. Whether Terry minds is not strictly relevant. But my guess is that Terry probably thought but didn't say "stuff it." It's not early August. Terry is on the hot seat. In these circumstances, the last thing ( well, maybe not dead last ) that any manager wants is a player second-guessing him in public, no matter how off-handedly the comments are made. The message is still what counts.  Lousy judgment, at the least, Papi. And you are wrong -- for all the reasons given by several posters on this thread.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    OK.  I just don't think it is that big of a deal.  I agree that Papi has a sort of "shadow side' to his jovial Papi persona and often gets out of line like this.  I just don't think there is much ado about it.  A.  What Papi says surely doesn't influence Francona's decision-making.  Nor, does it, in this instance, generate any real controversy in the court of public opinion.  He is just stating the obvious.  The Sox could really use Aceves as a starter.  problem is, and most folks understand, he is just too invaluable to the pen right now.  So, all I am saying is that it just isn't a big deal.  No controversy.  No pot being stirred.  And harmless.  On that, I am not wrong (why you felt the need to hammer that home is beyond me).
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : OK.  I just don't think it is that big of a deal.  I agree that Papi has a sort of "shadow side' to his jovial Papi persona and often gets out of line like this.  I just don't think there is much ado about it.  A.  What Papi says surely doesn't influence Francona's decision-making.  Nor, does it, in this instance, generate any real controversy in the court of public opinion.  He is just stating the obvious.  The Sox could really use Aceves as a starter.  problem is, and most folks understand, he is just too invaluable to the pen right now.  So, all I am saying is that it just isn't a big deal.  No controversy.  No pot being stirred.  And harmless.  On that, I am not wrong (why you felt the need to hammer that home is beyond me).
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    Once again, if value for a relief pitcher is judged in a ) Saves, b)Holds, c) keeping a game close so your team can come back and win, then Aceves value to the pen has been over stated, albeit to no fault of his own. Considering who we have been starting and the fact that we have been lossing those games in the early innings, his value as a Starter is and could have been huge.....so Ortiz is right he should be a starter.....though you are dead on that this doens not influence Tito o r cause any controversy
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    With Bedard, Beckett & Lester making six of the last eight starts, the need for Aceves in the rotation is not as great.  The only reason this looks like a good idea to some is because we have been throwing out one good starter every 5 days - now that we have three back, Aceves should stay in the pen.

    I don't mind Papi speaking out, though - I think he is trying to show some leadership.  He slid into first base yesterday - probably for the first time in his career.  
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : OK.  I just don't think it is that big of a deal.  I agree that Papi has a sort of "shadow side' to his jovial Papi persona and often gets out of line like this.  I just don't think there is much ado about it.  A.  What Papi says surely doesn't influence Francona's decision-making.  Nor, does it, in this instance, generate any real controversy in the court of public opinion.  He is just stating the obvious.  The Sox could really use Aceves as a starter.  problem is, and most folks understand, he is just too invaluable to the pen right now.  So, all I am saying is that it just isn't a big deal.  No controversy.  No pot being stirred.  And harmless.  On that, I am not wrong (why you felt the need to hammer that home is beyond me).
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    It's just as obvious, or should be, that Aceves is more valuable in the pen than as a starter. It's also obvious that Papi won't influence Terry's decision-making, but that isn't the issue. Players' remarks can affect a manager's reputation. Terry already takes enough heat "in the court of public opinion" for his handling of the pitching staff. Perhaps ( perhaps ) there is no controversy now, but now becomes later, when we might hear, "Remember what Papi said."  Remarks hang around. 
    I was addressing Papi about being wrong, not you directly. In substance, Papi is wrong, IMO, as you seem to agree. Or do you? The point is worth hammering home, since many posters appear to ignore the sound evidence and reasoning that is being offered by Harness and others.
    Perhaps Terry deserves some of the criticism he gets in the court of public opinion. He certainly needs no more, even if only implied, in the court of the most visible player on his team. 
    I guess we disagree on how big a deal this ( ahem ) indiscretion is. Bad idea, very bad timing, bad behavior. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Ortiz has done more for the Red Sox in one game than loser Wakefield has done in his lifetime. Wakefield complains about his pen role and says if it isn't changed he would consider MLB in Florida. Now, that is bad behavior. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    The team won't stay "in" games without that critical bridge guy, unless pitchers start to go 7 frames.



    That was my point for leaving Aceves in the pen.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    The team won't stay "in" games without that critical bridge guy, unless pitchers start to go 7 frames.

    The team isn't in games by the 5th inning of most games of 3/5ths of the staff. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : It's just as obvious, or should be, that Aceves is more valuable in the pen than as a starter. It's also obvious that Papi won't influence Terry's decision-making, but that isn't the issue. Players' remarks can affect a manager's reputation . Terry already takes enough heat "in the court of public opinion" for his handling of the pitching staff. Perhaps ( perhaps ) there is no controversy now, but now becomes later, when we might hear, "Remember what Papi said."  Remarks hang around.  I was addressing Papi about being wrong, not you directly. In substance, Papi is wrong, IMO, as you seem to agree. Or do you? The point is worth hammering home, since many posters appear to ignore the sound evidence and reasoning that is being offered by Harness and others. Perhaps Terry deserves some of the criticism he gets in the court of public opinion. He certainly needs no more, even if only implied, in the court of the most visible player on his team.  I guess we disagree on how big a deal this ( ahem ) indiscretion is. Bad idea, very bad timing, bad behavior. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I hear you man.  We agree to disagree on the weight of Ortiz' comments.  But I agree that he is not seeing the big picture in his lobby for Aceves to start.

    What do you think about the the playoffs (should the Sox survive to get there)?  I am interested in the pros and cons of having Aceves be the #4.  Buccholz could step into the bridge role easily I feel.  in fact, given that he doesn;t have time to get stretched out, that would be the best use of Clay.  
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Space, I knew you had a rational post in you. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : Aceves might be a very capable #4 next season behind Josh, Jon and Clay.  I agree Aceves should be starting considering how many games Weiland and Wake have struggled in but our "middle relief" is so poor management is afraid to commit. It's also obvious Lackey is in no way a capable #3 if we make the PS.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Agree that having Aceves as a starting pitcher next season is a good idea.  I would imagine that he would be a more reliable starter than Lackey.  If this happens, Theo definitely needs to find someone to replace him in the bullpen.   Agree that other than Josh and Jon, none of the other starters can be relied upon in the PS, (if we make it that far).  
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : I hear you man.  We agree to disagree on the weight of Ortiz' comments.  But I agree that he is not seeing the big picture in his lobby for Aceves to start. What do you think about the the playoffs (should the Sox survive to get there)?  I am interested in the pros and cons of having Aceves be the #4.  Buccholz could step into the bridge role easily I feel.  in fact, given that he doesn;t have time to get stretched out, that would be the best use of Clay.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    Space,.....usually I think you are spot on, but I think you have this backwards....if Buch is available for the playoffs, that would be when Aceves would be most valuable in the pen.....Buch is a starter....he prepares a starter and would be most successful as a starter, but since he wont be able to go deep, Aceves would be the best guy to be behind him to pick up the innings to get to the 8th in the playoffs. Until Buch is ready the reason Aceves should be starting is because he is being used in games we are already down in and our offense is not coming back to win them.....so we are in essence wasting his good pitching most of the time. If Buch is not ready to pitch in the playoffs, then I start Aceves over everyone but Lester, Beckett and Bedard,
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]The team won't stay " in " games without that critical bridge guy, unless pitchers start to go 7 frames. The team isn't in games by the 5th inning of most games of 3/5ths of the staff. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Let's look at Wake since he joined the regular rotation on May 22nd:

    Date IP   ER   R  Final score
    M 22 6.2   1   1    W5-1    (Middle relief held the lead)
    M27  7.0   2   2    W6-3    (Middle relief let up a  run, but held the lead)
    Jn 1  6.0   4   4    L 4-7     (Wake left down 4-3, the pen let up 3 runs)
    Jn 8  5.1   5   5    W 11-6 (Left 8-4 with 2 men on. Aceves let 1 score)
    Jn 14 7.0   1   2    L 0-4    (Wake went 7IP and left down 2-0: we lost 4-0)
    Jn 19 8.0   3   3    W 12-3 (No mid relief needed: Wake went 8)
    Jn 25 6.0   5   5    L 4-6    (losing 5-4: Albers comes in and lets up a run)
    Jl  1   5.1   5   5    W7-5  (left down 5-1, we get 6 next inn. Midrelief holds)
    Jl  6   7.0   3   3   W6-4  (left ahead 6-3 after 7. No midrelief needed)
    Jl 18  4.2   3   7   W15-10 (left behind 6-7, midrelief holds as we win)
    Jl 24  6.1   7   7   W12-8   (left ahead 11-7, pen holds lead)
    Jl 29  7.0   3   3   L 1-3      (left down 3-1 in 8th)
    A 3    6.2   3   3   W4-3      (Wake left tied 3-3 in 7th, pen holds, we score)
    A 7  7.0   3   5   W8-6  (leaves up 6-5, Aceves blows it, but we come back)
    A 14  8.0   4   5   L3-5  (pitches all 8 innings- no pen needed)
    A 20  5.1   4   4   L4-9  (leaves ahead 4-3. Albers comes in-down 9-4)
    A 26  4.0   4   4   L5-15 (leaves down 8-1)
    S 7     5.0   4   5  L10-11 (leaves ahead 8-5: relief blows the win)
    S13   6.0    5   5  W18-6  (leaves ahead 6-5: we crush Tor) 
    S18   5.0    2   6  L5-8   (leaves down 2-6, Sox score 3 more)

    Only you can look at these numbers and see that middle relief was not important to our wins and losses in Wake's starts.    

    Here's a summary of some recent starts:

    Lackey:
    9/14  2 runs allowed: we lost 5-4
    8/1    3 ERs (5 runs) allowed : we lost 9-6

    Miller, Lester, and Beckett have also needed strong middle relief several times recently

    Bedard:
    9/3  3 ERS: win 12-7
    8/27 0 ERs in 4 IP : win 4-0
    8/9  2 ER in 5 IP: win 4-3 
    8/4  3 ERs in 5 IP: lost 7-3
    Look what happened tonight. Atchison gave us a chance to win.






     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]The team won't stay " in " games without that critical bridge guy, unless pitchers start to go 7 frames. The team isn't in games by the 5th inning of most games of 3/5ths of the staff. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    And it would be 4/5ths if Aceves joined the rotation.
    He has only lasted 5 innings himself as a starter 75% of the time for Boston. So, who relieves him in the 6th?
    Who gives the BP depth over the following 4 days? Wheeler?
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter : Space,.....usually I think you are spot on, but I think you have this backwards....if Buch is available for the playoffs, that would be when Aceves would be most valuable in the pen.....Buch is a starter....he prepares a starter and would be most successful as a starter, but since he wont be able to go deep, Aceves would be the best guy to be behind him to pick up the innings to get to the 8th in the playoffs. Until Buch is ready the reason Aceves should be starting is because he is being used in games we are already down in and our offense is not coming back to win them.....so we are in essence wasting his good pitching most of the time. If Buch is not ready to pitch in the playoffs, then I start Aceves over everyone but Lester, Beckett and Bedard,
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    Agreed!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    While the Sox have had some pitching problems, rotation problems of late, let's not forget that. . .pass the ketchup.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    I wouldn't want Aceves as a starter next year. I don't even like him as a starter this year but my God, the game has regularly been over by the 3rd inning recently with Wake, Miller, Lackey ( for sure like clockwork ), Wieland...etc. What good is Aceves when the game has been over by the 3rd inning for most of our starts in the last month?

    Aceves is a stop gap measure for sure but we are in crisis mode. To ignore that is not seeing the data. We are spiralling out of control and it is because of our starting pitching with no indication that it is going to improve going forward with current personnel. Bedard and Beckett coming back surely help but we have 3 quality guys in the rotation and that's it right now. We might as well mail in the other starts lately. That needs to change. We are in a playoff race folks. We need to pull out the stops some.
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Do we start thinking outside the box when we are a game down with 2 to play? Or do we look at the trend lines now and do something about it?
     
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    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    In Response to Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter:
    [QUOTE]I wouldn't want Aceves as a starter next year. I don't even like him as a starter this year but my God, the game has regularly been over by the 3rd inning recently with Wake, Miller, Lackey ( for sure like clockwork ), Wieland...etc. What good is Aceves when the game has been over by the 3rd inning for most of our starts in the last month? Aceves is a stop gap measure for sure but we are in crisis mode. To ignore that is not seeing the data. We are spiralling out of controland it is because of our starting pitching with no indication that it is going to improve going forward with current personnel. Bedard and Beckett coming back surely help but we have 3 quality guys in the rotation and that's it right now. We might as well mail in the other starts lately. That needs to change. We are in a playoff race folks. We need to pull out the stops some.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Nobody is spiraling out of control - except those who push panic bittons.
    A two-game lead with 7 to go weighs heavily in our favor. And Josh/Lester will pitch 4 of the 7 if necessary. If the team wins 4 of 7, The Rays have to go 8-1 against NY/Toronto to beat us.

    Get a grip.
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    If the Sox go this or that , then the Rays have to go this or that is strictly hypothetical , and means nothing in reality.  It could not be any more obvious that our starting pitching is pitiful, and Aceves should have been given a full shot long ago. Too late now. Those who continue to argue that long relief is more important than starting pitching are dead wrong , but too stubborn to ever admit it.  Meanwhile , the epic collapse continues.  Given the way this team is playing , going even 4-3 over the final week seems highly unlikely. Start working on your excuses now.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ortiz: Make Aceves a starter

    Logic 101.  I have a good , reliable car and a junk car.  I always drive the junk car because the good car is more valuable in my garage for when the junk car breaks down every other day.
     

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