Outsiders Opinion

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Outsiders Opinion

    I said this all through last year and into the offseason - Boston needed to forget the money involved and sign Paps. He is the 2nd most feared closer in the game. Yeah, he had a couple of stinkers in Sept. Guess what, so has Mo, But the reality was Boston took a strength (Bullpen ' Aceves, Bard, Paps) and turned into something very wishy washy.

    I think the Sox will rue the day they let Paps leave. JMHO!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    I've never been a big fan of signing Paps for the money he wanted, but I have to admit, you are probably correct about this.  Foulke is the reason the Sox won in 2004 and Paps in 2007.  That, and they both had quality setup guys for innings 7 and 8.  The game was shortened to a 6 inning contest, and they never let it slip away like today, during those seasons.  And yet the Sox's bullpen has let 3 run 8th inning leads slip away at least 3 times already this season.

    What blows my mind most is that I assumed that the Sox did not pursue Papelbon because they thought Bard was heir apparent.  But then they went out and got Bailey and Melancon, showing they never really were counting on Bard to take over for Papelbon.  That makes no sense.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    I agree except your post perpetuates the idea that is was a bidding war and the Sox were in on it. Paps and his agent never gave the Sox the chance. Whatever damage had been done to that relationship had already been done prior, some have argued it was when the Sox flirted with Mariano Rivera the previous offseason. 

    I don't disagree but to argue that it was simply a matter of the Sox ponying up the cash is misleading, they needed to treat the whole relationship differently. 

    The counter to the "should have signed Paps" argument is that many teams have won championships scrambling for closers (see St Louis last year). Having said that no argument Paps would have helped, but if Bard for example can come in and play a role it could alleviate that some. 

    I take the tack the Sox problems run deep into cultural issues that were not addressed head on and closer is only the start of their headaches.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    I think you may be right jessey, and I really hate to admit that, because I thought he got way too much money from Philly. Our bullpen sure looked like a train wreck today though.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brickbat. Show Brickbat's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    The accepted wisdom on relievers is that you can't count on most of 'em. Papelbon is obviously different. Letting him go (whether by money or mistreatment) was a disastrous mistake -- but y'know what? With this front office it's just one of many. The only proof needed that this team is sunk is that posters and journalists are looking to the returns of Crawford and Dice-K as holding out hope for a turnaround.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    BTS - I think it was obvious to Paps during the course of the year that the Sox were going to play hard ball with him at the end of the season so his mindset was clear - first big offer, go for it.

    The Sox should have reached out to his agent before the season ended.

    You don't go cheap when you have a $180 million team in place. So you would have gone over the limit and had to pay a luxury tax - big deal. I have not understood this fascination RSN has had with team salary to begin with. I could care less if the Yankees spent $300 million on salary - it doesn't affect my rooting interest one bit.

    The fact remains is that you don't turn a strength into a weakness and that is exactly what Boston did. Even during the game when the Yanks were way down, when they did the dugout interview, Girardi was confident that NY could score runs quick against Boston's bullpen. You don't want that kind of attitude in the opposing clubhouse.

    The 2012 Boston team should have a bullpen of Aceves, Bard, Paps - end of conversation. It would have been the equal of Soriano, Robertson, Mo.

    This is all on Boston's F.O. and not on the manager. Even though I am not a fan of Bobby, I have seen what his on field capabilities are up close. Off field, Boston knew what they were getting. Bobby V. is not a long term solution and I think he knows that as well.

    My final thought is that if Ells comes back healthy, and Boston can sure up the bullpen, then they will be fine. Baily is not the answer. Boston has to put Bard back in the pen. If not, there could be serious consequences for 2012.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]I've never been a big fan of signing Paps for the money he wanted, but I have to admit, you are probably correct about this.  Foulke is the reason the Sox won in 2004 and Paps in 2007.  That, and they both had quality setup guys for innings 7 and 8.  The game was shortened to a 6 inning contest, and they never let it slip away like today, during those seasons.  And yet the Sox's bullpen has let 3 run 8th inning leads slip away at least 3 times already this season. What blows my mind most is that I assumed that the Sox did not pursue Papelbon because they thought Bard was heir apparent.  But then they went out and got Bailey and Melancon, showing they never really were counting on Bard to take over for Papelbon.  That makes no sense.
    Posted by parhunter55[/QUOTE]

    Totally agree, the Sox pen in 2004 was second to none in MLB.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]I said this all through last year and into the offseason - Boston needed to forget the money involved and sign Paps. He is the 2nd most feared closer in the game. Yeah, he had a couple of stinkers in Sept. Guess what, so has Mo, But the reality was Boston took a strength (Bullpen ' Aceves, Bard, Paps) and turned into something very wishy washy. I think the Sox will rue the day they let Paps leave. JMHO!
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    Hey Jesse,

    Not sure that I agree they'll rue the day. We've yet to see Bailey in action. Who was aquired to be our closer and it is his loss due to injury that has effected the teams depth far more than that of Papelbon's.

    No disrespect intented but Papelbon was hardly the 2nd best closer in the last three seasons. Circa 2005 to 2007 one could argue that he was MO's equal or better. Since 2008 Papelbon hasn't been the dominant closer he was early on in his career. Lets not forget it was he who coughed up 2 runs leads in the top of the 9th in two games in recent times that would have extended our season. The playoff loss to the Angels in 2009 and then last year in game 162 vs the Orioles.

    The current plight of this team can be traced back to the injuries sustained by Matsusaka and then Lackey... That's 65 starts and 400 plus innings of starting pitching that needed to be replaced. If we add Jenk's to the equasion, a former closer with plus stuff who was signed by Epstein to bolster the backend of the pen and help in the transistion after Papelbon walked. Who's given the team squat now in a season and a half...In total, the troubling part of the above is that's 31 million dollars on the DL. A number that even the mighty yanks would find difficult to swallow. More troubling inhindsight aside from Matsuska. Was and is that the ownership allowed Epstein to sign both Lackey and Jenks with pre-existing health concerns.

    Further our roster and budget also has been compromised if add Youk who's struggled with injuries since last July and has yet to find his stroke this year. Along with the the season long maliase that was Crawford in 2011 at what was a premium cost. Entering this season we had more questions than answers and his injury to open the season along with Ellsbury's has blown a hole in our lineup and forced us to deploy players that would otherwise be serving utlity roles. End of the day if we are to compete in the longterm Youk has to return tio his former self and be that 100 RBI middle of the order 900 plus OPS hitter he was as recently as last June. along with both Crawford and Ellsbury returning to lineup and playing to that back's of thier baseball cards...That's another 40M plus in under-performing or injured impact everyday players.

    So in fainess to Cherington and Valentine lammenting the loss of Papelbon as a root casue for why this team is off to the start they are is to miss the bigger picture. The pen is an issue but not a fatal flaw...Lester, Beckett and Buccholz all are off to rocky starts...if this team is to compete it is they that have to start pitching to thier resumes...Doubront and Bard have both outpitched them to start the season...

    Cleary it's getting late early for the REd Sox of 2012...however they still have a long season ahead. Most troubling from where I sit is not our current record it's the ineffective starts to the season by our "big three" and the underpermance and injures to Youk, Crawford and Ells along woth our compromised pen doesn't bode well fro us going on a run and playing 600 ball in the month of may...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tarpouch. Show tarpouch's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    You have to get to the closer to win games.The're not doing that now. Sox are losing on many levels not just because of pap flying the coup.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Outsiders Opinion : Hey Jesse, Not sure that I agree they'll rue the day. We've yet to see Bailey in action. Who was aquired to be our closer and it is his loss due to injury that has effected the teams depth far more than that of Papelbon's. No disrespect intented but Papelbon was hardly the 2nd best closer in the last three seasons. Circa 2005 to 2007 one could argue that he was MO's equal or better. Since 2008 Papelbon hasn't been the dominant closer he was early on in his career. Lets not forget it was he who coughed up 2 runs leads in the top of the 9th in two games in recent times that would have extended our season. The playoff loss to the Angels in 2009 and then last year in game 162 vs the Orioles.
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    BT - closers blow games - that is the nature of the business. Yanks could easily have won 6 straight W.S. championships except for a couple of blown saves by Mo. 1997 vs Cleveland and of course the silliness of game 7 of the 2001 W.S. - big deal. As a Yankee fan, I feared Paps more than any other closer in baseball.

    Bailey is no Paps - never will be. He is a middle tiered closerr who is fragile and causes no fear in the opposing dugout. Then you add in this silliness of moving Bard to the rotation after losing Paps you are looking at a disaster. And that is exactly what you got. Bard needs to be moved back to the bullpen.

    I am not saying this cannot be fixed, but IMHO, RS F.O. needs to address the situation quickly.

    This is not like last year where Boston got off to a bad start and no one could figure it out considering the roster of the team. And as predicted, they came on strong and posted the best record from May to August. They had a Sept. meltdown, but you forget that and move on. After the offseason played out, I saw the weaknesses on this Boston team and they were glaring.

    I still think Boston is one of the top 6 teams in the A.L. and always fear them going on a run, but the bullpen situations needs to be fixed right away.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    Disagree respectfully, but not signing Papelbon for 50 million or more was not a mistake, the mistake here is that Bard should have been the future closer, and even with Bard moving to a starter's role, the trade for Bailey should have been enough to offset Pap's departure, but now with Bailey's injury, Bard should again be put back into the stopper's job. That's the real mistake the Sox have made, but I believe Valentine is not making the on field decisions, but Cherington is, which is puzzling to me, as I don't believe Cherington as any on field experience.It appears to me that Cherington did not want Valentine as manager and seems that the FO is trying manage the on field operations. Iam  not impressed with Cherington as a GM, and see him as a Theo clone.
    Just think of this, would the Yankee's, groom Robertson for River's job, then when Rivers retires, would they then let Robertson announce that he wants to be a starter and actually let him become one?  I don't think so, but that is what the Sox, and now it is not working. Cherington let Bard talk him into becoming a starter. Getting Bailey healthy is very important, but if Bard is not moved back to the closer position, then by the time Bailey gets back, it may be to late for the 2012 season.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    Seems I misspelled Mariano Rivera's not once but twice. Sorry about that.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]Disagree respectfully, but not signing Papelbon for 50 million or more was not a mistake, the mistake here is that Bard should have been the future closer, and even with Bard moving to a starter's role, the trade for Bailey should have been enough to offset Pap's departure, but now with Bailey's injury, Bard should again be put back into the stopper's job. That's the real mistake the Sox have made, but I believe Valentine is not making the on field decisions, but Cherington is, which is puzzling to me, as I don't believe Cherington as any on field experience.It appears to me that Cherington did not want Valentine as manager and seems that the FO is trying manage the on field operations. Iam  not impressed with Cherington as a GM, and see him as a Theo clone. Just think of this, would the Yankee's, groom Robertson for River's job, then when Rivers retires, would they then let Robertson announce that he wants to be a starter and actually let him become one?  I don't think so, but that is what the Sox, and now it is not working. Cherington let Bard talk him into becoming a starter. Getting Bailey healthy is very important, but if Bard is not moved back to the closer position, then by the time Bailey gets back, it may be to late for the 2012 season.
    Posted by peanutandme[/QUOTE]

    Peanut - I agree 100 % of your take once Paps was gone. It was mind boggling to not have kept Bard in the pen. The question is, was Bard actually being groomed to be a closer? Now I would think that was the case considering 2010 and 2011, but obviously it wasn't. So this tells me that the F.O. was improvising and that is never a good way of doing business in baseball.

    Paps was worth the money - just like Mo is worth the money.

    Again, I am being as objective as one can be here. And as a Yankee fan, the last thing I wanted to see was Paps and the Yankees had decent success off him. But I respected and feared that he would close out 8/10 games vs NY if given the opportunity. I think a healthy Bailey is at best a 50-50 shot.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]I said this all through last year and into the offseason - Boston needed to forget the money involved and sign Paps. He is the 2nd most feared closer in the game. Yeah, he had a couple of stinkers in Sept. Guess what, so has Mo, But the reality was Boston took a strength (Bullpen ' Aceves, Bard, Paps) and turned into something very wishy washy. I think the Sox will rue the day they let Paps leave. JMHO!
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]That's an honest view for sure. The Sox bullpen right now is a total disgrace. Again they flushed a very good starting performance. You look at the yankees pen and you have to be feeling very good if the starters keep you in the game. I'am not just talking the back end of the pen. The middle arms can pitch as well.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion : BT - closers blow games - that is the nature of the business. Yanks could easily have won 6 straight W.S. championships except for a couple of blown saves by Mo. 1997 vs Cleveland and of course the silliness of game 7 of the 2001 W.S. - big deal. As a Yankee fan, I feared Paps more than any other closer in baseball. Bailey is no Paps - never will be. He is a middle tiered closerr who is fragile and causes no fear in the opposing dugout. Then you add in this silliness of moving Bard to the rotation after losing Paps you are looking at a disaster. And that is exactly what you got. Bard needs to be moved back to the bullpen. I am not saying this cannot be fixed, but IMHO, RS F.O. needs to address the situation quickly. This is not like last year where Boston got off to a bad start and no one could figure it out considering the roster of the team. And as predicted, they came on strong and posted the best record from May to August. They had a Sept. meltdown, but you forget that and move on. After the offseason played out, I saw the weaknesses on this Boston team and they were glaring. I still think Boston is one of the top 6 teams in the A.L. and always fear them going on a run, but the bullpen situations needs to be fixed right away.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    Jesse...Papelbon has 4 blown saves in September of last year...Valverde had zero in the entire season. The reason is that he in recent season lives and dies on his fastball a fastball that no longer lights up the radar gun in the upper 90's with late finish and hasn't developed or learn to trust his secondary stuff. He struggles to put guys away when he gets ahead and when he tires and losses his command, the ball leaks out over the plate and espcially against lefties often finds grass or souvenier city...all of his measurables have been going in the wrong direction for three seasons...

    Mo's blown save vs the Diamondbacks was IMHO a result of poor management  (set up by a poor fielding Brousus) not his performace. Gonzo hit a texas leaguer that had Jeter been playing at normal depth he would have caught it in his back pocket...

    I get that closers blow games and I am not suggesting that Papelbon is not among the best in the game. Just don't share your lofty opin and while he strikes fear into you, not sure that the Yankee lineup Arod in particular shares your angst...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]I think you may be right jessey, and I really hate to admit that, because I thought he got way too much money from Philly. Our bullpen sure looked like a train wreck today though.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Papelbon was probably overpaid, but he wouldn't have signed with Boston anyway.  He never gave the Red Sox the chance to match any offers from Philly.  I don't believe he ever had any intentions to remain with the Red Sox.  Just not sure what the Red Sox will do to fix their pitching problems.  I still believe that Bard needs to return to the bullpen.   Although, this won't solve all of our pitching problems.  The starters are just continuing from where they left off in September of last year. 
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    I disagree with the OP.  Pap might have saved a couple of games this year, but no more than that. 

    One guy cannot overcome the overall weakness of 12 pitchers.  Our so-called "big three" starters all have ERAs over 5.  This overall weakness stretches back to September 1, 2011, when we had both Pap and Bard in the bullpen.  But the team ERA back then--September 2011--was the worst in MLB and the bullpen blew 6 of 9 saves with Pap and Bard both there.

    The Sox are now in their fourth straight season with a lousy pitching staff, and Pap and Bard were both in the bullpen for the first three seasons (although maybe Bard wasn't here for 2009). 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    you let paps walk because 50 million can buy a lot of ballplayer...an everyday ballplayer...the problem was that Ben let paps/Marco goto save money and didnt reinvest it in anyone even near the caliber of Paps....that was the problem
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]I disagree with the OP.  Pap might have saved a couple of games this year, but no more than that.  One guy cannot overcome the overall weakness of 12 pitchers.  Our so-called "big three" starters all have ERAs over 5.  This overall weakness stretches back to September 1, 2011, when we had both Pap and Bard in the bullpen.  But the team ERA back then--September 2011--was the worst in MLB and the bullpen blew 6 of 9 saves with Pap and Bard both there. The Sox are now in their fourth straight season with a lousy pitching staff, and Pap and Bard were both in the bullpen for the first three seasons (although maybe Bard wasn't here for 2009). 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    Max - if Paps changes the outlook on two games this year, then Boston's record is 6 - 8 , not 4 - 10 and the discussion in RSN is not the overcrowding on the Tobin Bridge.

    Geo makes a point - you didn't want to invest $50 mil on Paps, then put $40 mil of it somewhere that will sure up your team and leave Bard in the Pen.

    Bosox bullpen ERA right now is over 8.00. You tell me, is that looking good to you?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    Question - would the majority of fans move Bard back into the pen right now?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]Question - would the majority of fans move Bard back into the pen right now?
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    San's Bailey or the aquisition of another closer...The answer is yes...doesn't mean it's the best decision. I would like to see him given the chance to continue his quest to transition to being a starter. His upside is that of a #1 and given his age and the longer term need to replace Matsusaka in 2013 and beyond I'd rather have a stout rotation (see the Ray's) than a stout pen (see the Yank's)...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Outsiders Opinion

    In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Outsiders Opinion : San's Bailey or the aquisition of another closer...The answer is yes...doesn't mean it's the best decision. I would like to see him given the chance to continue his quest to transition to being a starter. His upside is that of a #1 and given his age and the longer term need to replace Matsusaka in 2013 and beyond I'd rather have a stout rotation (see the Ray's) than a stout pen (see the Yank's)...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    I would agree with you if this was any other team than Boston or NY. I like the transition if Boston will stay the course and understand that it can very well affect the outcome of the 2012 season. If Bard transitions well, learns to pace himself (Joba couldn't) and controls the edges of the plate, then you have something serious for 2013. The question is, can RSN live with that for one more year? My understanding of RSN is solely based on our little community here, so I don't know if it shows a true reflection of the fanbase as a whole. But based on this forum, I don't know if a third straight season out of the playoffs would be acceptable. Not that us fans really have much of a say in F.O. thinking.

    As of today's NY Post, Bard will be skipped a turn in the rotation and work out of the bullpen for the next week. Not sure if this is a sign of the times or just scheduling.
     
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