1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RS75. Show RS75's posts

    Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 9:20 AM EDT

    Last night, Papelbon comes in to pitch in the ninth with RS holding a three run lead.  He gives up four hits, nearly blows the win, gets rescued by a combination of great throw, great block of the plate and a favorable call, and ends up being credited with a save.  He gets the save under MLB rule 10.20:

    Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states:
    Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
    (1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
    (2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
    (3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
    - (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
    - (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or
    - (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.

    This was was not a performance worthy of a save but the current rule makes it so.  It places an emphasis on and rewards "closing out the game", even if ineffectively versus "putting out fires".  For historical reference, the rule has existed in its current form since 1974 when it was relaxed with the addition of the 3(a) criterion above.

    What do you think?  Should this rule be revisited? 
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 9:33 AM EDT

    No.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:01 AM EDT

    In Response to Overrated Save?:
    Last night, Papelbon comes in to pitch in the ninth with RS holding a three run lead.  He gives up four hits, nearly blows the win, gets rescued by a combination of great throw, great block of the plate and a favorable call, and ends up being credited with a save.  He gets the save under MLB rule 10.20: Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states: Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions: (1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and (2) He is not the winning pitcher; and (3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions: - (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or - (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or - (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game. This was was not a performance worthy of a save but the current rule makes it so.  It places an emphasis on and rewards "closing out the game", even if ineffectively versus "putting out fires".  For historical reference, the rule has existed in its current form since 1974 when it was relaxed with the addition of the 3(a) criterion above. What do you think?  Should this rule be revisited? 
    Posted by RS75


    RD75...it is what it is...the fact that Papelbon was not at peak performance level last night does not take away from the fact that he was the pitcher of record when the last out was made...whether he initiated it himself or not. So giving up a moonshot and a bunch of hits accummulating to 2 runs was one less than the Jays needed to tie the game. So it WAS a save...just not one that he will refer to when negotiating a new contract this offseason.
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:10 AM EDT

    I always thought a SAVE should be only when the reliever comes in during the 9th inning where the winning run is either at the plate or on base already.

    Or if he starts the 9th with a 3 run lead or less.

    Now reading the rules my idea is nearly the same as the rules above, except for the winning run being in the on deck circle.


     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from soups. Show soups's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:17 AM EDT

    That's just baseball.  In theory, a closer can blow a save but still earn the win.  It's all part of the game.
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:17 AM EDT

    "Saves" is a very poor stat by which to judge a closer.  There is a pretty big difference between a save involving 4 outs in a 1-run game and a save involving 3 outs in a 3 run game.  At the very least, saves need to be weighted in some manner.

    "Blown saves", while not an official stat, are equally bogus.
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:21 AM EDT

    In Response to Overrated Save?:
    Last night, Papelbon comes in to pitch in the ninth with RS holding a three run lead.  He gives up four hits, nearly blows the win, gets rescued by a combination of great throw, great block of the plate and a favorable call, and ends up being credited with a save.  He gets the save under MLB rule 10.20: Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states: Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions: (1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and (2) He is not the winning pitcher; and (3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions: - (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or - (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or - (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game. This was was not a performance worthy of a save but the current rule makes it so.  It places an emphasis on and rewards "closing out the game", even if ineffectively versus "putting out fires".  For historical reference, the rule has existed in its current form since 1974 when it was relaxed with the addition of the 3(a) criterion above. What do you think?  Should this rule be revisited? 
    Posted by RS75


    As a Sox fan and after watching the game I have to admit Pap blew this game because the runner was in fact safe but I will take the win anyway.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:24 AM EDT

     RS75, i'm sure it wouldn't have been so overrated had that run scored...would it have been any different if one of your outfielders had climbed the wall to haul in a long blast to end the game?..shouldn't really matter as long as you got it done...
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:39 AM EDT

    Can someone fill me in on exactly who "overrated the save?" The rules define it as a save. It is stating the obvious that Papelbon was fortunate to get a save. We all are aware of that. Is someone preaching to the choir again here? Why is this a thread worthy of comment?
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:43 AM EDT

    Why did you open it then? And even more, why did you post on it?
     

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    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:45 AM EDT

    To discourage future repeats.
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:47 AM EDT

    lol, and here you are again. 
     

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    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 10:52 AM EDT

    Meh.  So it counts as a save.  Big deal.  No one "overrated it".  everyone in the building, on the field, and watching the game understood that Pap was lucky and did not pitch well.  
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:10 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Overrated Save?:
    "Saves" is a very poor stat by which to judge a closer.  There is a pretty big difference between a save involving 4 outs in a 1-run game and a save involving 3 outs in a 3 run game.  At the very least, saves need to be weighted in some manner. "Blown saves", while not an official stat, are equally bogus.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi


    Yeah. It's kinda like a "saved" job!
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:22 AM EDT

    The save itself is an overrated stat. A few years back, the Rangers beat the Orioles 30-0 (or something like that). And the pitcher who got the final out was credited with a save. Why? He pitched the last three innings.

     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RS75. Show RS75's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:32 AM EDT

    I agree that the "save" is an overrated stat.  Most of the times, it does work but there are situations which result in an absurd save like the one LloydDobler referred to.  BTW, the pitcher in question was Wes Littleton who entered the game in the bottom of the seventh with Texas leading 14-3.  He pitched three scoreless innings while Texas went on to score an additional 16 runs!
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:32 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Overrated Save?:
    The save itself is an overrated stat. A few years back, the Rangers beat the Orioles 30-0 (or something like that). And the pitcher who got the final out was credited with a save. Why? He pitched the last three innings.
    Posted by LloydDobler

    How about when the set up man comes in in the 8th, with the tying run on third and one out, gives up a sac. fly to score the tying run and is charged with a " blown save " , while having no chance at getting credit for a save, only a " hold?" How unfair is that? It has happened.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:38 AM EDT

    Saves and blown saves are just messed-up stats.  I always get a chuckle out of the fact that Rivera got charged with a blown save in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS.  He came in with a one-run lead, runners on first and third and no outs.  He gave up a sac fly and that saddled him with the bogus stat.

     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:42 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Overrated Save?:
    In Response to Re: Overrated Save? : How about when the set up man comes in in the 8th, with the tying run on third and one out, gives up a sac. fly to score the tying run and is charged with a " blown save " , while having no chance at getting credit for a save, only a " hold?" How unfair is that? It has happened.
    Posted by dgalehouse

    Exactly. Plus, even had the runner from third scored on an error or passed ball -- in other words, not the pitcher's fault whatsoever -- that would still be a blown save, no?
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:49 AM EDT

    A save is a save although Papelbon didn't pitch well last night, they can't take the Save away from him.
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 11:53 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Overrated Save?:
    In Response to Re: Overrated Save? : Exactly. Plus, even had the runner from third scored on an error or passed ball -- in other words, not the pitcher's fault whatsoever -- that would still be a blown save, no?
    Posted by LloydDobler


    I believe it's all BS.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 12:08 PM EDT

    The really ugly stat is the BL.  That's when the reliever coughs up the works, loses the lead and the game too.  Brad Lidge had 7 BL's in 2009.
     
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 12:24 PM EDT

    "Saves and blown saves are just messed-up stats.  I always get a chuckle out of the fact that Rivera got charged with a blown save in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS.  He came in with a one-run lead, runners on first and third and no outs.  He gave up a sac fly and that saddled him with the bogus stat."

    Papelbon was charged with a blown save in a similar situation in the 2008 ALCS, relieving Masterson.  It doesn't make any since that Paps' postseason ERA was 0.00 at the time (IIRC) but he had a blown save.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 3:45 PM EDT

    What irritates me is when a reliever allows inherited runners to score, but is not accountable.  He should get 1/2 an earned run allowed, an easy rule change IMO.
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Overrated Save?

    posted at 7/6/2011 3:50 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Overrated Save?:
    What irritates me is when a reliever allows inherited runners to score, but is not accountable.  He should get 1/2 an earned run allowed, an easy rule change IMO.
    Posted by Alibiike

    An easy rule change that would require pitchers ERA's to be changed since the beginning of MLB.