Package Salty for Ring?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

    I say not only keep him, but sign him long term. Hes finally starting to match his potential. The one question is whether or not he'll stay strong in late summer.


    There are multiple questions:

    What would it cost to sign him long term? If he's as great as everyone is saying right now, maybe it takes a qualifying offer to keep him. Does anyone really think he's worth 14m?

    What is his remaining upside versus downside potential?

    Do we see him as the next Carlton Fisk?

    If you think he'll break with tradition and continue this hot streak in the 2nd half, then fine, keep him. Otherwise I just don't see him as a lynchpin that gets us deep into October, as opposed to the right arm.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

    [QUOTE]I say not only keep him, but sign him long term. Hes finally starting to match his potential. The one question is whether or not he'll stay strong in late summer.



    There are multiple questions:

     

    What would it cost to sign him long term? If he's as great as everyone is saying right now, maybe it takes a qualifying offer to keep him. Does anyone really think he's worth 14m?

    I truly believe Salty will get a 4yr deal from someone. My guess is in the 8Mish range. I also believe he might leave a mil or two on the table to stay in Boston. Thats just MHO though. If Salty was offered a QO and accepted it, It wouldnt be all bad. Although an overpay by about 5, he would be the best guy to hold a spot for Christian Vasquez for a year. It would only be a year and shouldnt hinder the team in pursuing other team needs.

    What is his remaining upside versus downside potential?

    Upside is familiarity with the staff, how comfortable they are with him, improving offense and defense, and he is still getting better.

    Downside is pitching staff not having nearly as good a working relationship with Ross or lavarnway. I think thats huge and could greatly effect the starters performances.

    Do we see him as the next Carlton Fisk?

    Fisk is a HOF'er and its not fair to make that comparison. Could he be a great fit going forward for this team and continue improving? Yes. Could he be an AS catcher? I believe he could. Hes a great team guy who works hard and has shown great improvement since coming here and is still improving. I believe a lot of teams would love to have him behind the plate on their team.

    If you think he'll break with tradition and continue this hot streak in the 2nd half, then fine, keep him. Otherwise I just don't see him as a lynchpin that gets us deep into October, as opposed to the right arm.

    Im also concerned about his 2nd half issues, but like the rest of his game, I think it will also improve this year too. Enough to take the chance and keep him in his current role with this team for the rest of the season.




     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Are you suggesting that we go with Ross and Lavarnway the rest of the way?


    We could.

    We could also have a look at Vasquez for a few innings since he's on the 40-man roster. People keep talking about how he's the future. Well at some point, the future becomes NOW.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    Trading a catcher with 2 months of team control and a propensity to slump late in seasons is not going to net us a difference maker starting pitcher, unless the package includes other top players. 

    Plus, the only teams looking for a 2 month rental catcher are contenders, so they will not be parting with a top pitcher. A third team would have to be involved, so Salty goes to a contender, prospects fro that contender plus some of ours go to a non-contender, and we get a top pitcher from that team. Not easy to orchestrate, but not impossible.

    As I have said for over 7 months now: extend Salty or consider trading him still makes sense, but we need a nice return to make up for the massive loss on offense from the catcher position, esp vs RHPs, and a loss of a growing comfort zone our staff has shown with Salty behind the plate.

    Sox4ever

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    A third team would have to be involved, so Salty goes to a contender, prospects fro that contender plus some of ours go to a non-contender, and we get a top pitcher from that team. Not easy to orchestrate, but not impossible.

    I figure cash would also be part of the equation, either carrying some salary going or allowing more of a dump coming.

    But for a good pick by Drew, Salty almost puts the ball in centerfield today. His arm is a minus, but that is not news for a guy we got for a song because he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher.

    Offensively? If he does .270 for the season and draws a few more walks then maybe you have to keep him. I just don't have faith that he's not going to revert to his old profile.

    Do you sign him for a year and wait for Vazquez?

    If we can't manage a split with the birds then it gives me less confidence about any chance to reach the series.

    What do you think would do the trick Moon? Short of selling the farm ...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    A third team would have to be involved, so Salty goes to a contender, prospects fro that contender plus some of ours go to a non-contender, and we get a top pitcher from that team. Not easy to orchestrate, but not impossible.


    I figure cash would also be part of the equation, either carrying some salary going or allowing more of a dump coming.

    Salty's contract this year is not an issue. His 2 months of team control makes him valuable only to a contending team with catcher and/or offensive issues vs RHPs only.

    I don't see Salty being traded this deadline. I see us trying to extend him at some point, but my guess is Ben will only go 1-2 years out, so Salty will likely walk. That is the the reason I stated last November that if Salty was not in our future plans, we should look to trade him. I'm not sure what Ben's thoughts are on Salty, so it all depends on that.

     

    But for a good pick by Drew, Salty almost puts the ball in centerfield today. His arm is a minus, but that is not news for a guy we got for a song because he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher.

    Offensively? If he does .270 for the season and draws a few more walks then maybe you have to keep him. I just don't have faith that he's not going to revert to his old profile.

    Do you sign him for a year and wait for Vazquez?

    If we can't manage a split with the birds then it gives me less confidence about any chance to reach the series.

    What do you think would do the trick Moon? Short of selling the farm ...




    I don't want to sell the farm, but we will be facing a rule 5 crunch this November, so I'd like to see us make a couple 2 or 3 for one deals to clear up that matter and add more quality than quantity to our farm. Then, I'd like to see us trade some youth for a useful player under team control for 2+ years- not a 2 month rental. I'd try and keep Bogaerts, Ranaudo, Owens, Bradley and Swihart/Vazquez, but the others I'd be Ok with trading, if we get multiple years of control in return. I'd even trade Bradley if we plan on upgrading the OF position via free agency this winter.

    We have to give something to get real value.

    I've mentioned trading Doubront in a package to upgrade our rotation, but with Lester faltering, I'm not sure if that is a great idea, unless we can get a solid starter that is under control through 2015.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Are you suggesting that we go with Ross and Lavarnway the rest of the way?


    We could.

     

    We could also have a look at Vasquez for a few innings since he's on the 40-man roster. People keep talking about how he's the future. Well at some point, the future becomes NOW.

     



    It seems virtually impossible to improve the team that way.  I like Vazquez, but there is a question mark if he'll even be ready for 2014, let alone this year.  Lav has done nothing to impress me.  Trading Salty looks like a significant downgrade to me.  The idea would be to trade away from your surplus, not your thinnest position.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to lasitter's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Are you suggesting that we go with Ross and Lavarnway the rest of the way?


    We could.

     

     

    We could also have a look at Vasquez for a few innings since he's on the 40-man roster. People keep talking about how he's the future. Well at some point, the future becomes NOW.

     

     



    It seems virtually impossible to improve the team that way.  I like Vazquez, but there is a question mark if he'll even be ready for 2014, let alone this year.  Lav has done nothing to impress me.  Trading Salty looks like a significant downgrade to me.  The idea would be to trade away from your surplus, not your thinnest position.

     



    Aren't you forgetting about Ross, who has put up pretty good offensive and defensive numbers in recent years and would only be asked to be the FT catcher for 2 months, one of which is September, when call-ups will allow for more back-ups (Vazquez).

    I agree, that trading Salty now or at the deadline would probably make little sense, but I wouldn't say we are all that "thin" at catcher beyond Salty.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to lasitter's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

     

    Are you suggesting that we go with Ross and Lavarnway the rest of the way?


    We could.

     

     

     

    We could also have a look at Vasquez for a few innings since he's on the 40-man roster. People keep talking about how he's the future. Well at some point, the future becomes NOW.

     

     

     



    It seems virtually impossible to improve the team that way.  I like Vazquez, but there is a question mark if he'll even be ready for 2014, let alone this year.  Lav has done nothing to impress me.  Trading Salty looks like a significant downgrade to me.  The idea would be to trade away from your surplus, not your thinnest position.

     

     

     



    Aren't you forgetting about Ross, who has put up pretty good offensive and defensive numbers in recent years and would only be asked to be the FT catcher for 2 months, one of which is September, when call-ups will allow for more back-ups (Vazquez).

     

    I agree, that trading Salty now or at the deadline would probably make little sense, but I wouldn't say we are all that "thin" at catcher beyond Salty.



    Ross hasn't had more than 176 ABs since 2007.  He is also 3-22 since the concussion, so there could be lingering issues, as he's taken some shots even post-concussion.  Suppose we trade Salty and Ross goes back out for concussion issues.  We'd be splitting time with someone struggling in AAA, and a 22 y.o. just getting by in AA.  And I love Vazquez' arm, but that doesn't translate into being a good receiver, since he'll have -0- pro experience.

    Outside of Buch, Salty is probably our single most indispensable player.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Outside of Buch, Salty is probably our single most indispensable player.



    This has got to make him one of the biggest turnarounds in baseball history. I can't figure out now whether we can afford to re-sign him or not.

    Answer: No. He's just another player on a team that has lots of depth at catcher. Just weeks ago I cringed as he racked up throwing errors and whiffed embarrasingly. I'm not sure I know the real Salty at all.

    I'm glad he's hitting now. I'm just not willing to bank on that continuing.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Outside of Buch, Salty is probably our single most indispensable player.



    This has got to make him one of the biggest turnarounds in baseball history. I can't figure out now whether we can afford to re-sign him or not.

    Answer: No. He's just another player on a team that has lots of depth at catcher. Just weeks ago I cringed as he racked up throwing errors and whiffed embarrasingly. I'm not sure I know the real Salty at all.

    I'm glad he's hitting now. I'm just not willing to bank on that continuing.



    I agree.  He's like others that we picked up over the years.  He was a fine pickup, he did well for us, I'm happy to see him go out and get a nice contract.  But I also don't want to pay top-dollar for him.  I think, even if we struggle for a year or two, I'd prefer to start the next generation of catchers.  I think we might be able to sneak in Vazquez as a backup to Ross next year, and if it isn't high-producing, it will also allow us to spend elsewhere.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to lasitter's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

     

     

    Are you suggesting that we go with Ross and Lavarnway the rest of the way?


    We could.

     

     

     

     

    We could also have a look at Vasquez for a few innings since he's on the 40-man roster. People keep talking about how he's the future. Well at some point, the future becomes NOW.

     

     

     

     



    It seems virtually impossible to improve the team that way.  I like Vazquez, but there is a question mark if he'll even be ready for 2014, let alone this year.  Lav has done nothing to impress me.  Trading Salty looks like a significant downgrade to me.  The idea would be to trade away from your surplus, not your thinnest position.

     

     

     

     

     



    Aren't you forgetting about Ross, who has put up pretty good offensive and defensive numbers in recent years and would only be asked to be the FT catcher for 2 months, one of which is September, when call-ups will allow for more back-ups (Vazquez).

     

     

    I agree, that trading Salty now or at the deadline would probably make little sense, but I wouldn't say we are all that "thin" at catcher beyond Salty.

     



    Ross hasn't had more than 176 ABs since 2007.  He is also 3-22 since the concussion, so there could be lingering issues, as he's taken some shots even post-concussion.  Suppose we trade Salty and Ross goes back out for concussion issues.  We'd be splitting time with someone struggling in AAA, and a 22 y.o. just getting by in AA.  And I love Vazquez' arm, but that doesn't translate into being a good receiver, since he'll have -0- pro experience.

     

    Outside of Buch, Salty is probably our single most indispensable player.



    I'd say Buch, Pedey, Iggy, Nava, and Naps are ahead of Salty, but Carp could probably fill in for Naps pretty well (though our OF would then suffer).

    I'm not saying Salty is not valuable. A look at the "Bench Salty" thread will show I have supported him as much if not more than most on this site, but I think you under estimate our catching depth. Our pitchers mostly do better with Ross not Salty, but it is close. The concussion issue is legit, but by the deadline, we shouldknow more.

    I don't want to trade Salty, and don't think he will net us a top SP unless the package is huge.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

       
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    After two long extra inn. games on this trip the pitching showed some weaknesses. 
    BenC and JF did a good job juggling between AAA and Boston. Then our #5 batter went down and Ortiz became a non-factor. So what does that tell us about our team?

    We are still in first place we come home to face Tampa---who I think I read are adding Will the thrill to the 25 man roster. They certainly put some runs up against the Sox down there.

    I'm not looking at Salty as a problem--I'm more concerned about Ross' health and his issues batting and catching following his concussion. If the Sox can't make a trade for a catcher--I say DL Ross and bring up Lava--if Lava doesn't hit bring up Vazquez.

    If this PED thing breaks before the deadline we may have a taker or two for Drew which I am coming around to a high percentage of the "Nation's" way of thinking. Perhaps he's playing with trouble still with the ankle--it was mentioned that he ices the ankle after games. Anyone that's tried to perform with an issue knows it's difficult. That being said it's his issue but it's also a RS issue. Could someone else do better?

    Lester has become the biggest problem with the rotation---he was pitching with big time confidence for the first few wins then all of a sudden he has become the guy who's affraid to be on the mound. Not directing his fielders-not showing any leadership. Almost appears to want to be someplace else. I wish BenC could accomodate him---it's like the chicken and beer is still sitting there in the back of his mind--he never did spill his guts and tell his whole side of it and get it off his plate. Jon you've got to  be the man and do it---then you'll be free.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to mjagger's comment:

    When i read the headline to the OP, my 1st thought was that SALTY was going to be put inside a CRACKER JACKS' box.



    LOL I knew there was something funny about the thread title.

     

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    MadMc44: I'm eager to see big league sunlight hit Lav / Vazquez. I agree competely about seeing if Lav can hit and then giving way to Vazquez. Like Iggy, it may be another case of not knowing what he can do until you let him play.

    I've always thought that dealing Salty, trading Drew, throwing in some cash and other odds and ends might end up in a multi-way trade that gets us an arm that can help. And I don't mind trading value for value.

    I just don't believe that Salty is the key to winning. If we do nothing and keep Salty I don't think we go far in the playoffs. The pitchers won't forget how to throw if he's not there. They've been at least OK with Ross, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see them shake off Vasquez a few times.

    I think about trading Salty because I don't see his stock getting higher, and other teams would love to have our depth at catcher.

    If you think he hits .270 all the way thru then maybe you keep him, but if we're still coming up short offensively with him against the birds then maybe pitching would help us more. I put more importance on pitcher performance for game outcome than any position player. The catcher can call anything he wants, but the pitcher still has to locate it.

    With Buck brittle and Lester swooning I think we have to have another arm. The farm has helped with the bullpen, but are they ready to step into the rotation? Can Ace hold his form?

    Too many pitching questions for me to deal with.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    MadMc44: I'm eager to see big league sunlight hit Lav / Vazquez. I agree competely about seeing if Lav can hit and then giving way to Vazquez. Like Iggy, it may be another case of not knowing what he can do until you let him play.

    I've always thought that dealing Salty, trading Drew, throwing in some cash and other odds and ends might end up in a multi-way trade that gets us an arm that can help. And I don't mind trading value for value.

    I just don't believe that Salty is the key to winning. If we do nothing and keep Salty I don't think we go far in the playoffs. The pitchers won't forget how to throw if he's not there. They've been at least OK with Ross, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see them shake off Vasquez a few times.

    I think about trading Salty because I don't see his stock getting higher, and other teams would love to have our depth at catcher.

    If you think he hits .270 all the way thru then maybe you keep him, but if we're still coming up short offensively with him against the birds then maybe pitching would help us more. I put more importance on pitcher performance for game outcome than any position player. The catcher can call anything he wants, but the pitcher still has to locate it.

    With Buck brittle and Lester swooning I think we have to have another arm. The farm has helped with the bullpen, but are they ready to step into the rotation? Can Ace hold his form?

    Too many pitching questions for me to deal with.




    Not to sound disrespectful, but it seems with a few things you said in your above comments, that you really dont understand the pitcher/catcher dynamic that much.

    Im also eager to see Vasquez, not so much Lav though. But I wouldnt insert either of them with a whole new set of arms in the middle of a PO run. Pitchers have to be very comfortable with a catcher and trust him. Thats when they can be their best. Salty knows these guys well and can handle them the best. Not that others cant, but theres always a learning curve getting to know them. I dont want to risk any of our pitchers feeling the least bit uncomfortable right now. We can get other pieces we may need without getting rid out our starting catcher. Theres really not as much depth as you might think. Ross is a PT guy. Thats it. Lav? Vasquez? Not without some bumps in the road and the risk of no offensive production. Not worth it to me when we have other options that make more sense for trades.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    A first-place team rarely trades its starting catcher midseason (or its starting centerfielder or starting shortstop, as others have proposed).

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    we have plenty of other pieces to package in a trade instead of our #1 catcher. 

    Middy + 1 or 2 of the top pitching prospects should net a major league starter (Lee?).  but do you want to give up those top prospects? 

    9 years ago i never expected Nomah to be traded.  no one is untouchable but i just dont see Ben, Lucc & Co. trading Salty this year.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Not to sound disrespectful, but it seems with a few things you said in your above comments, that you really dont understand the pitcher/catcher dynamic that much.


    I don't pretend to. I just think good teams can adapt.

    There are lots of smart guys in the organization that are ready to provide a crash course to a natural talent. Vazquez quick feet can make up for not always knowing how far in front of the plate a ball will bounce.

    He and Lava both have arms that would outperform Salty's. I think that's important, allowing pitchers to focus on the batter at the plate versus the runner at first base.

    I don't for a moment pretend that Salty straight up brings us a strong arm. But if we had a multi-way deal involving one team looking for a salary dump along with another needing a PED / injury replacement in Drew, then maybe something works out.

    No matter what, at the end of the season we don't have Salty. At that point we're looking at another $6+ mil per year to extend him, and perhaps more if other posters are correct about how good he is. And there we are sitting on all this catching depth still in a position to use the money saved to carry a +arm.

    Nothing is a given. The devil is in the details. If we could play Vazquez and Lava a little before the trade deadline we could get a better sense as to how well they might stand in. If that exercise draws a blank, then for sure, you keep Salty for the stretch.

    And of course you could always trade Salty and then attempt to re-sign him in free agency, along with anyone else that cared. It can all come down to what different people are thinking when the trade deadline approaches. Maybe some other GM sees the bat lasting and really wants that power. Maybe not. In the end it would certainly be a multi-player deal and only BC knows the cards he's holding close to his chest.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Package Salty for Ring?

    no Salty, no ring...get that thru your skull! 

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
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