Papelbon has been worth his contract

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Papelbon has been worth his contract


    His name has been floating around trade rumors...I went and looked how he's done since leaving Boston...and he's been worth his 4/50, especially for a big market team. Now, PHI put themselves in a hole that started with Ryan Howard's mega-deal, and continued when Doc broke down, but that doesn't mean Pap hasn't been worth it.


    Many SOx fans will simply say the Sox haven't missed him...and that would be a flat out lie. Had the Sox not gotten insanely lucky with Uehara, they would be regretting their decision to let Pap walk.


    2012 was a disaster in ever sense of the word...and not the least of which was the closer position. QUICK! Name the closers in 2012!!!! Bard? Aceves? Albers? 


    2013 was lucky...in every single sense. Closer was no exception. Uehara was the 3rd ON ROSTER OPTION...nobody, and I mean NOBODY expected him to be the best closer in baseball for 2 years.


    Papelbon is having arguably his best season to date. At 33, his WHIP is back down to a miniscule 0.85 and his ERA is a very good 1.24. 06 and 07 were slightly better in just about every way, though his ERA was higher in 2007.


    12.5 per season for a guy who has been one of the top closers in baseball for 9 straight seasons is a very reasonable price.


    I once commented I would keep him and run him out there "until his arm flew off".


    I miss Pap. I miss his alter ego. I miss his insanity. I like Koji, he's fun and exciting...but Papelbon was a home-grown talent which, to me, makes it more special. I liked the fierce attitude. I did not like the stretches between pitches. Aside from that, however, he's one of the more fun Sox players in recent history to watch. And he was unfairly bludgeoned following 2011, and most fans were wanting him gone given the final game, ignoring the facts:


    "For the 2011 season, Papelbon recorded 31 saves in 34 opportunities. He blew just 3 saves all season long, but 2 occurred during the final month of the season, including the final game of the 2011 regular season;"


    Thank you for everything you did in Boston Papelbon.


    Thank you for DEMANDING to be the closer when they were going to make a starter out of you again.


    Thank you for being so dominant early in your career.


    Thank you for memories of you dancing with a 30 pack on your head, on the mound after winning in 2007.


    I'm not happy you left, but Thank you for making a quick decision, and not taking any pot shots at Boston on your way out.


    Thank you for recording 200 saves in the fewest appearances ever, passing Mo's record, and doing it against the NYY no less.


    He's a guy that was dynamic, and historic for Boston...and fans couldn't wait for him to leave. Even with Koji...I miss him. He was a rare talent, and an even more rare personality.


    I'm glad he's done well since, and silenced all but the most stubborn of his haters.


    Rock on Cinco Ocho!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract


    This is is a HOF worth resume:

    Achievements[edit]
    5x All-Star (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012)[1]


    Holds the single-season record for most saves in a season by a Red Sox rookie (2006).[1]

    Second in 2006 American League Rookie of the Year voting to Justin Verlander.[1]

    First pitcher in Boston Red Sox franchise history to have three 30 save seasons.[1]

    Holds the Major League record for most consecutive scoreless innings to start a postseason career (25).[1]

    Only pitcher to record 25 saves in each of his first five full seasons; he has gone beyond that and recorded 30 in each of those years.[1] - and that streak gets to his first 9 seasons with 3 more this year

    Fastest pitcher in MLB history to reach 200 career saves.[1]

    He will likely go down as the second best closer in MLB history. He's 33 now, and he doesn't seem to be slowing down. Koji and Mo showed us how durable closers can be. Hoffman, Eck did as well.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    Nice post. I've always been a Papelbon fan, and for all the talk about his decline, he still gets the job done and then some. He is having a terrific season at 33.


    The Sox did get very lucky with Uehara. I don't want to think about what the closer situation might look like had we not signed him, and he's probably the sole reason that "We screwed up by not keeping Papelbon" posts are not a regular staple here.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    I've always liked Papelbon.  He did a great job for us.  I think he works harder at his trade than people give him credit for.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    I've always been a Papelbon fan also and really wanted the Sox to re-sign him.

    But not at that price.  This is not meant to bash Paps, but the contract that Philly gave him was insane for a closer.  Yes, he gets the job done, but he is not worth $12.5 mil per year.  Relievers, even closers, are not worth that kind of money.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've always been a Papelbon fan also and really wanted the Sox to re-sign him.

    But not at that price.  This is not meant to bash Paps, but the contract that Philly gave him was insane for a closer.  Yes, he gets the job done, but he is not worth $12.5 mil per year.  Relievers, even closers, are not worth that kind of money.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    At the time...I thought it high as well.

    However, consider this...do the Sox tender Koji at 14 for a single season, or do they let him walk?

    To me...if they don't deal him (which I think they should), he's worth a 1/14 deal.

    Closers aren't very valuable, but Papelbon is one of the extremely rare varieties. He's proven, durable, consistent, and has a ring. He is an ELITE closer in a world where there are very few. Many good closers have a good year or two..maybe even 3...Paps is working on his 9th straight. That kind of reliability is invaluable to a good team.

    There are contending teams out there, right now, who have blown 10+ games this season. Papelbon blew 3 in 2011 and many fans were p i s s e d at him.

    With PEDs steadily being driven out of the game, I honestly think you'll see fewer guys show up out of nowhere, be great, and then fade back to the shadows. That's just my opinion based of what I've seen over a very small sample of 2-3 years...but going forward, I think we'll start to see more career closers, and teams will start to be willing to pay more for premium guys. 

    In the age of babying pitchers, pitch counts, extra rest, and all that jazz...closers should be viewed more prominently. Baseball has proven slow to adapt to a changing landscape, and this is no different.

    Honestly, the best closers in baseball should get what the best starters do...it's just there are 5 quality starters to finding 1 closer at that elite level. Very, very few closers prove it year in and year out. Papelbon is one of 3, recently, that I can think of - Mo, Hoffman, Papelbon. They are the triumvirate of modern day closers, and what all closers should be judged against. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    I remember when dog doo was more popular on this board.  Good for him.  I don't want him back, but I'm glad he's done well. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    All well and good, but if my memory serves me correctly Papelbon had made a decision to leave before the season was even over.  He couldn't wait to get out of Dodge and once he got an offer approaching what he wanted he was on the first stagecoach out of town.

    No doubt he's having a good year this year (1.24 ERA & 0.85 WHIP) but in the two previous years since he's been gone that ERA has been ~2.75 and the WHIP ~1.25.  That's respectable enough for a closer but not a closer making $12.5M/year. 

    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    And I have never posted here under any other names.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    paps hasnt been that great and the fact that he has been outpitched by Koji makes it clear that he was not worth the 60 mil investment...nothing personal but no closer is

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    No closer is worth that money, he's been ok but not great in Phily,  His numbers look good this year but his strikeouts are way down and it is still relatively a SSS, one or two bad outings and his ERA looks like it has the last couple years......without the strike outs. 

    It's also easy to judge a guy by looking at a stat sheet, but from afar it doesn't seem like Paps is that popular in Philly.  Things might have gotten ugly with him here...especially in 2012 and this year.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    Papelbon has been worth his contract?  Are you serious?  His fWAR value combined in '12/'13 was only $11.1m vs. being paid $25m.  I'm not a disciple of WAR by any means but I think it has a lot of value as a starting point...and by any reasonable standard it's another in a long line of absurd Phillies contracts.

    Even this year - and I agree he's having a great season - he has little chance of "earning" his salary though to be fair "professional" closers are for the most part massively overpaid and that's not his/their fault.

    He has come nowhere near being worth his contract IMO, not even close to being close.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    BTW, I like Papelbon a lot and always have...I just think he's massively overpaid and, again, that's not his fault.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    I still remember when he had a bad inning a few months ago and the RS 'fans' in here were blasting him non-stop.

    Now they disappeared like a fa rt in the wind.

    I'm from the Bronx and I rarely see anyone that hates the RS players as much as the posters in here.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    why we are talking about him?  did the Sox won the world series last year without him??

    Closer are hard to find in now days.  Other than Mo Riveria, no one have stayed on one team for more than 6 to 7 years in the past 15 years.

    Boston probably would love to resign him, but Papelbon quickly signed with the Phillies during the month of November.  He never tried shopping around for a little more time to find a better contract.  

    Well, I never bother watching him or most other former red sox players on how they are doing.  

    Fans always dream too much that they wish to have Papelbon, Ellsbury, Beltre, etc on the same team.  No way it is going to happen cuz if they all want to stay with the Red Sox, the payroll will climb toward to the 250 millions dollars payroll.

    He was fun to watch in the past, but decided to leave Boston for more money!!  Typical greedy guy just like Ellsbury.  No one in baseball is ever going to stay loyalty to the team except few guys like Pedroria!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    No closer is worth that money, he's been ok but not great in Phily,  His numbers look good this year but his strikeouts are way down and it is still relatively a SSS, one or two bad outings and his ERA looks like it has the last couple years......without the strike outs. 

    It's also easy to judge a guy by looking at a stat sheet, but from afar it doesn't seem like Paps is that popular in Philly.  Things might have gotten ugly with him here...especially in 2012 and this year.

    [/QUOTE]

    His velocity went down and he learned to adjust. I give him credit for that, don't hold it against him.

    He was a player I enjoyed rooting for, hated seeing him leave. The first year he was gone they certainly missed him, think of Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan.




     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    When a player leaves the Red Sox, his abilities and value mysteriously decline.  Strange phenomenon or just some fan bias ?  Which is it ? 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've always been a Papelbon fan also and really wanted the Sox to re-sign him.

    But not at that price.  This is not meant to bash Paps, but the contract that Philly gave him was insane for a closer.  Yes, he gets the job done, but he is not worth $12.5 mil per year.  Relievers, even closers, are not worth that kind of money.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    At the time...I thought it high as well.

    However, consider this...do the Sox tender Koji at 14 for a single season, or do they let him walk?

    To me...if they don't deal him (which I think they should), he's worth a 1/14 deal.

    Closers aren't very valuable, but Papelbon is one of the extremely rare varieties. He's proven, durable, consistent, and has a ring. He is an ELITE closer in a world where there are very few. Many good closers have a good year or two..maybe even 3...Paps is working on his 9th straight. That kind of reliability is invaluable to a good team.

    There are contending teams out there, right now, who have blown 10+ games this season. Papelbon blew 3 in 2011 and many fans were p i s s e d at him.

    With PEDs steadily being driven out of the game, I honestly think you'll see fewer guys show up out of nowhere, be great, and then fade back to the shadows. That's just my opinion based of what I've seen over a very small sample of 2-3 years...but going forward, I think we'll start to see more career closers, and teams will start to be willing to pay more for premium guys. 

    In the age of babying pitchers, pitch counts, extra rest, and all that jazz...closers should be viewed more prominently. Baseball has proven slow to adapt to a changing landscape, and this is no different.

    Honestly, the best closers in baseball should get what the best starters do...it's just there are 5 quality starters to finding 1 closer at that elite level. Very, very few closers prove it year in and year out. Papelbon is one of 3, recently, that I can think of - Mo, Hoffman, Papelbon. They are the triumvirate of modern day closers, and what all closers should be judged against. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    Sorry but I can't agree with comments that closers are not worth it. When your club doesn't have a consistant closer your club loses games in late innings that could have been won, goes through pitchers like Hanrahan, et al trying to find one that can do the job year in and year out. Pitchers whohave done it consistantly like Paps are wortn the money, especially when your club can't find one.

    As for Koji the Sox lucked out !! Without Koji no WS title in 2013.  

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    Maybe its a sign of the times, but consider this: in his first two years with Philly Papelbon pitched 131.2 innings for which he was paid $25M. That works out to about $19000 per inning and if he averages say, 15 pitches per inning, its $1266 per pitch. The guy many people think is one of the top SP in baseball, Felix Hernandez, by comparison, during the same time period, 2012-2013, earned $50M for 436 IP or $11,468 per inning or, assuming 15 pitches per inning, $764 per pitch. Is Papelbon worth over 50% more per pitch than Hernandez? I realize that I am comparing a closer to a SP, but the money saved on Papelbon could be used to buy part of a very good SP....or a corner OF bat. I do not think Papelbon is worth that kind of money; no closer is. Craig Kimbrel, a closer with better stats from 2012-2013 (ERA: 1.11/WHIP: .771) got a new contract for 4 years at $42M. I am glad we did not overpay Papelbon. His contract is absurd.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Maybe its a sign of the times, but consider this: in his first two years with Philly Papelbon pitched 131.2 innings for which he was paid $25M. That works out to about $19000 per inning and if he averages say, 15 pitches per inning, its $1266 per pitch. The guy many people think is one of the top SP in baseball, Felix Hernandez, by comparison, during the same time period, 2012-2013, earned $50M for 436 IP or $11,468 per inning or, assuming 15 pitches per inning, $764 per pitch. Is Papelbon worth over 50% more per pitch than Hernandez? I realize that I am comparing a closer to a SP, but the money saved on Papelbon could be used to buy part of a very good SP....or a corner OF bat. I do not think Papelbon is worth that kind of money; no closer is. Craig Kimbrel, a closer with better stats from 2012-2013 (ERA: 1.11/WHIP: .771) got a new contract for 4 years at $42M. I am glad we did not overpay Papelbon. His contract is absurd.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Pumpsie,  By " we " , do you mean you and John Henry ? 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Maybe its a sign of the times, but consider this: in his first two years with Philly Papelbon pitched 131.2 innings for which he was paid $25M. That works out to about $19000 per inning and if he averages say, 15 pitches per inning, its $1266 per pitch. The guy many people think is one of the top SP in baseball, Felix Hernandez, by comparison, during the same time period, 2012-2013, earned $50M for 436 IP or $11,468 per inning or, assuming 15 pitches per inning, $764 per pitch. Is Papelbon worth over 50% more per pitch than Hernandez? I realize that I am comparing a closer to a SP, but the money saved on Papelbon could be used to buy part of a very good SP....or a corner OF bat. I do not think Papelbon is worth that kind of money; no closer is. Craig Kimbrel, a closer with better stats from 2012-2013 (ERA: 1.11/WHIP: .771) got a new contract for 4 years at $42M. I am glad we did not overpay Papelbon. His contract is absurd.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Pumpsie,  By " we " , do you mean you and John Henry ? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Its the "royal" we. Me and the queen. 

    WE = The Red Sox

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Maybe its a sign of the times, but consider this: in his first two years with Philly Papelbon pitched 131.2 innings for which he was paid $25M. That works out to about $19000 per inning and if he averages say, 15 pitches per inning, its $1266 per pitch. The guy many people think is one of the top SP in baseball, Felix Hernandez, by comparison, during the same time period, 2012-2013, earned $50M for 436 IP or $11,468 per inning or, assuming 15 pitches per inning, $764 per pitch. Is Papelbon worth over 50% more per pitch than Hernandez? I realize that I am comparing a closer to a SP, but the money saved on Papelbon could be used to buy part of a very good SP....or a corner OF bat. I do not think Papelbon is worth that kind of money; no closer is. Craig Kimbrel, a closer with better stats from 2012-2013 (ERA: 1.11/WHIP: .771) got a new contract for 4 years at $42M. I am glad we did not overpay Papelbon. His contract is absurd.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Pumpsie,  By " we " , do you mean you and John Henry ? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Its the "royal" we. Me and the queen. 

    WE = The Red Sox

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  I know. Just kidding. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    I'm so sick of the line "no closer is worth that money." I'm tired of the "trade Koji" talk. Do you understand how important the closer is/has been to the WS title teams for the Sox? 04 Foulke, 07 Papelbon and 13 Koji....You don't got a closer, you're going to lose...end of story. Sox had Schiraldi in '86, choked. '03 Sox manager didn't feel Tim-Bree was worth bringing for Pedro, lost. You win with a great closer, and Papelbon was worth his money and Koji is worth keeping around for as long as they can keep him. Remember "Closer by Committee"?....people have short memories.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    And CC should have had the ball in '11....

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Papelbon has been worth his contract

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm so sick of the line "no closer is worth that money." I'm tired of the "trade Koji" talk. Do you understand how important the closer is/has been to the WS title teams for the Sox? 04 Foulke, 07 Papelbon and 13 Koji....You don't got a closer, you're going to lose...end of story. Sox had Schiraldi in '86, choked. '03 Sox manager didn't feel Tim-Bree was worth bringing for Pedro, lost. You win with a great closer, and Papelbon was worth his money and Koji is worth keeping around for as long as they can keep him. Remember "Closer by Committee"?....people have short memories.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Exactly. Closers are overrated. That is until you blow some big games without having a top closer. There are few things more demoralizing than blowing a game that seemed to be in the bag. The reality is that most players are overpaid. In that sense Pap is overpaid. But please don't tell me that Stephen Drew is worth 10 mil for half a season, but one of the best closers in baseball is not worth 12 mil for a full season. That is hypocrisy . To me, this is just another example of a former Sox player being demeaned. Papelbon has been one of the best closers in the game for eight years. Don't kill him for leaving Boston and taking the money from the Phils. He would have been a fool not to. I am quite sure that his children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren will appreciate his being " greedy " and taking the most money from the billionaire owners. Too many fans get carried away with their feelings and forget that this is a business. 

     

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