Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]Expensive roll of the dice for a player that conceivably could have been let go two years ago - replacing 28/95 is easy to do.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Last year there were 19 players who hit 28/95, including Ortiz. Exactly TWO were openly available (i.e. free agents or clearly on the trade market) this offseason: Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols.

    I'd say there are between 30-40 players who have a good shot at 28/95, though many of them will still fall short of that mark. The problem is that, among that group, the only ones who are ever available are top-dollar free agents or extremely flawed veterans (Alfonso Soriano, Mark Reynolds). You'd rather have those guys instead of Ortiz? You wouldn't even be saving money...

    I notice all the Ortiz haters here aren't responding to my posts. Hard to argue with actual evidence, eh? I suppose if the facts don't fit your hypothesis, don't change your hypothesis...just choose facts that fit better!
     
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    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox : Last year there were 19 players who hit 28/95, including Ortiz. Exactly TWO were openly available (i.e. free agents or clearly on the trade market) this offseason: Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols. I'd say there are between 30-40 players who have a good shot at 28/95, though many of them will still fall short of that mark. The problem is that, among that group, the only ones who are ever available are top-dollar free agents or extremely flawed veterans (Alfonso Soriano, Mark Reynolds). You'd rather have those guys instead of Ortiz? You wouldn't even be saving money... I notice all the Ortiz haters here aren't responding to my posts. Hard to argue with actual evidence, eh? I suppose if the facts don't fit your hypothesis, don't change your hypothesis...just choose facts that fit better!
    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the time and effort that you made to present such an excellent rebuttal. A great analysis and relevant data.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from xcaliber. Show xcaliber's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    If you are so against our players, why the hell are you here? Find yourself a team that suits your desires and leave the Sox alone to those who TRULY support them year round!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    Given what Ortiz did in early Red Sox career, and what he was paid at that time, he has earned more than what he has been paid during his career. Contrast that to two value disgraces, good ole boys Varitek and Wastefield, who have been gifted welfare contract years beyond the age they were able to compete at the MLB level. Ortiz has not played a single season where he has not been on of the top tier hitters in the league!!! Yet most of bigoted Leftist Boston begrudges Ortiz final contract years. If Ortiz hits zero and washes out during 2012, had has earned his money a zillion times over Wastefield and VAritek!!!!!!!!!! Get that through your bigoted heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]Given what Ortiz did in early Red Sox career, and what he was paid at that time, he has earned more than what he has been paid during his career. Contrast that to two value disgraces, good ole boys Varitek and Wastefield, who have been gifted welfare contract years beyond the age they were able to compete at the MLB level. Ortiz has not played a single season where he has not been on of the top tier hitters in the league!!! Yet most of bigoted Leftist Boston begrudges Ortiz final contract years. If Ortiz hits zero and washes out during 2012, had has earned his money a zillion times over Wastefield and VAritek!!!!!!!!!! Get that through your bigoted heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]

    Amen to that, regarding Ortiz at least. Apparently his desire for contract security (not money...what Ortiz wants more than anything is to not have to worry about his job security) rubs people the wrong way, so they blow it way up and call him selfish.

    You are pretty unfair regarding Wakefield and Varitek, though. Wakefield has long been a model (and award-winning) citizen, an unselfish player who did whatever the Sox asked of him. He signed for an extremely reasonable $4m (a pay cut) after 2005, when he put up a crazy, career high 225 innings, along with a very solid 4.15 era. He then gave the Red Sox complete control with a faith-based annual $4m team option, which they happily exercised through 2009 (from '06-'09 Wakefield's ERA+ values were 103, 100, 112, 103, which means the Red Sox were getting a flexible and unselfish above average pitcher for $4m a year with no long-term risk). Then, in anticipation of the decline he has indeed suffered the last two years (but ONLY the last two years), he signed an even more team-friendly deal for an AAV of $2.5m. Was that really such a waste?

    As for Varitek, he signed a very reasonable 4 year, $40m contract after his two best seasons (when he was VERY good), and completely live up to it over the first three seasons (.260/.355/.440, excellent numbers for a catcher who also fields well) before unsurprisingly hitting a wall at age 36. He then took a 50% pay cut (down to $5m), then took home $3m to be a certain backup catcher, and last year was a veteran, clubhouse-leading backup catcher for a "wild" sum of $2m.

    Both players have lived up to their earnings, both have been unselfish and graceful personalities, and both have worked with the team to sign reasonable financial contracts. They deserve the height of praise in what is an often selfish business, not criticism.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox : Amen to that, regarding Ortiz at least. Apparently his desire for contract security (not money...what Ortiz wants more than anything is to not have to worry about his job security) rubs people the wrong way, so they blow it way up and call him selfish. You are pretty unfair regarding Wakefield and Varitek, though. Wakefield has long been a model (and award-winning) citizen, an unselfish player who did whatever the Sox asked of him. He signed for an extremely reasonable $4m (a pay cut) after 2005, when he put up a crazy, career high 225 innings, along with a very solid 4.15 era. He then gave the Red Sox complete control with a faith-based annual $4m team option, which they happily exercised through 2009 (from '06-'09 Wakefield's ERA+ values were 103, 100, 112, 103, which means the Red Sox were getting a flexible and unselfish above average pitcher for $4m a year with no long-term risk). Then, in anticipation of the decline he has indeed suffered the last two years (but ONLY the last two years), he signed an even more team-friendly deal for an AAV of $2.5m. Was that really such a waste? As for Varitek, he signed a very reasonable 4 year, $40m contract after his two best seasons (when he was VERY good), and completely live up to it over the first three seasons (.260/.355/.440, excellent numbers for a catcher who also fields well) before unsurprisingly hitting a wall at age 36. He then took a 50% pay cut (down to $5m), then took home $3m to be a certain backup catcher, and last year was a veteran, clubhouse-leading backup catcher for a "wild" sum of $2m. Both players have lived up to their earnings, both have been unselfish and graceful personalities, and both have worked with the team to sign reasonable financial contracts. They deserve the height of praise in what is an often selfish business, not criticism.
    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Great post. If the criticism gets to you then you can decide if the source of it is constant, manufactured, without facts to back it up, and contrived to irritate. When you decide, you can merely put that irritant onto ignore.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

     he signed an even more team-friendly deal for an AAV of $2.5m. Was that really such a waste?


    Wakefield was paid nearly 4 million last year, which is truly a joke! The incentives should not have been included and did not need to be included as they represented poor quantity, not quality.

    Both Varitek and Wakefield have been washed up for years, and have put ownership and management in a bad position of having to be the only MLB team who will feel sorry for them and gift them MLB contracts and active roster spots. If they had class, they would have retired gracefully, at least 2 years ago.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]If you are so against our players, why the hell are you here? Find yourself a team that suits your desires and leave the Sox alone to those who TRULY support them year round!
    Posted by xcaliber[/QUOTE]

    He went to a Yankee forum to bug their fans but there were no Yankee fans there since they were all over here.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    hmm..we get the yanks late season averages but not papis??? is this what passes for honesty on this site? 

    you can take Papi...

    i will take tex
    or cano
    or grandy
    or pedroia
    or agon
    or ells
    arod? youk? if healthy (and didnt have to play the field like big sloppy?)

    stop this insanity that Papi in 2012 is a great bargain at 14 mil for a dh...stupid...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox : he was good last yr...but i dont care what the stats say, he was not even in the top 20 hitters in the american league...those stats are meaningless...as september proved.....14 mil for a 37 yr old one dimensional player who is more concerned with his own stats than the team's success is not my idea of a great signing...but dont let that stop your bootlicking...i realize it has been a very tough year for the APOLOGISTS
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    I hope you understand that your first statement (above) destroys all credibility you have in this thread, and many others.  Stats are stats.  They are what they are - an indication of a players contribution to the team.  

    Some fans love stats until they don't agree with them, then they say, "I don't care what the stats say, ....". Be one way of the other - either believe in them or don't, but don't be picking and choosing when you want to believe in stats.

    To call stats "meaningless" becaue of a one month slump is to allow one's self to become a victim of Small Sample Size. 

    I, too, think he's overpaid at $14MM, but I want him on this team (and not another team) and... it's not my money!  So I'm getting what I want, essentially for free.  And Roy Oswalt ain't coming through that door, with or without Papi on the team.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE] he signed an even more team-friendly deal for an AAV of $2.5m. Was that really such a waste? Wakefield was paid nearly 4 million last year, which is truly a joke! The incentives should not have been included and did not need to be included as they represented poor quantity, not quality. Both Varitek and Wakefield have been washed up for years, and have put ownership and management in a bad position of having to be the only MLB team who will feel sorry for them and gift them MLB contracts and active roster spots. If they had class, they would have retired gracefully, at least 2 years ago.
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]

    Where did you get a "nearly $4m" salary from? I have Wakefield at a $2m base salary (due to met incentives in 2010), and $0.825m from additions games started incentives, putting him at a $2.825m salary.

    Wakefield has been "washed up" for two years, if you hold him to his prior standard. But he's taken a salary decrease to go along with that! A few million dollars is a reasonable price for a high payroll team to hold on to a guy who eats up some innings at the back end of the rotation, all while being a model citizen, and without any long-term risk whatsoever. You criticize Wakefield for only giving "poor quality", but that's what he's been paid for! Quality pitching costs far more on the veteran market.

    If Wakefield had "retired two years ago" as you say he should have, it would have been foolish, as he was coming off of seven straight years of quality-for-a-#5-pitcher innings. Age has finally caught up to him, but the Sox still saw some value, and paid him less accordingly. Now, he looks to offer even less value, and the Sox appear to have moved on.

    Jason Varitek was an almost-average major league hitter the past two years despite playing at the catcher position...he was actually a very appropriate value for his salary over that period. His problem at this point isn't even hitting quality...it's his inability to stay rested and healthy due to age and the rigors of his position, and that Sox want a more reliable option at backup catcher.

    To say these two have only netted their recent contracts due to "ownership feeling sorry for them" is the height of ignorance. The Red Sox have shown all the emotion and compassion of an NFL team with the way they've bid players adeiu...Trot Nixon is one of dozens of examples. The Sox kept Wakefield and Varitek around for gradually reduced salaries (commensurate with their useful but gradually reduced playing ability) because they fit what the team needed!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox : I hope you understand that your first statement (above) destroys all credibility you have in this thread, and many others.  Stats are stats.  They are what they are - an indication of a players contribution to the team.   Some fans love stats until they don't agree with them, then they say, "I don't care what the stats say, ....". Be one way of the other - either believe in them or don't, but don't be picking and choosing when you want to believe in stats. To call stats "meaningless" becaue of a one month slump is to allow one's self to become a victim of Small Sample Size.  I, too, think he's overpaid at $14MM, but I want him on this team (and not another team) and... it's not my money!  So I'm getting what I want, essentially for free.  And Roy Oswalt ain't coming through that door, with or without Papi on the team.
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    i am not the one who stated that PAPI IS ONE OF THE 8 BEST HITTERS IN MLB...those stats are a joke...as someone else posted, Papis numbers are good but 25-30 players in mlb are in that same area....i watched just about everygame last yr, there is no way Papi was clutch in big moments, nor did he even play hard it seemed...he was lazy on the bases, and complained a lot about aceves not starting, his rbis, and his lack of a contract...i know those realities dont seem to matter to the bootlickers, but i promise you that this is what matters in baseball, not baseball reference.com....but if you are going to at least compare players, try to use the same yardstick...not just a sample....i dont have to look that up to know the answer...Papi is a pampered, overpriced, one dimensional veteran...just like that other guy with the beer gut on the mound today...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pike2. Show Pike2's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox : I hope you understand that your first statement (above) destroys all credibility you have in this thread, and many others.  Stats are stats.  They are what they are - an indication of a players contribution to the team.   Some fans love stats until they don't agree with them, then they say, "I don't care what the stats say, ....". Be one way of the other - either believe in them or don't, but don't be picking and choosing when you want to believe in stats. To call stats "meaningless" becaue of a one month slump is to allow one's self to become a victim of Small Sample Size.  I, too, think he's overpaid at $14MM, but I want him on this team (and not another team) and... it's not my money!  So I'm getting what I want, essentially for free.  And Roy Oswalt ain't coming through that door, with or without Papi on the team.
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    Who ever said that a troll has to be credible? Trolls bow to no standards of credibility, honesty, sincerity, reason, or logic. A successful troll is measured by number of responses and how irritated the respondents are.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    man it feels good to ignore Pike/pike 2.0/utica/ladylake/normanbates/nunziorom....

    maybe Pike can someday settle on one name, and not spend his time trying to do crowd control....
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pike2. Show Pike2's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    At least Pike is warning the crowd about an obvious troll who doesn't even believe in his own posts. Most of the forum is aware that you are just fooling around and entertaining yourself but there are still many who take you seriously. They will disappear one by one when they finally recognize that you are acting. If government is justified in warning the public of scams then I can warn BDC posters of obvious trolls.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]Given what Ortiz did in early Red Sox career, and what he was paid at that time, he has earned more than what he has been paid during his career. Contrast that to two value disgraces, good ole boys Varitek and Wastefield, who have been gifted welfare contract years beyond the age they were able to compete at the MLB level. Ortiz has not played a single season where he has not been on of the top tier hitters in the league!!! Yet most of bigoted Leftist Boston begrudges Ortiz final contract years. If Ortiz hits zero and washes out during 2012, had has earned his money a zillion times over Wastefield and VAritek!!!!!!!!!! Get that through your bigoted heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]
    You are the biggest bigot on the board, but with that said 08 when Ortiz was hurt and 09 when he was really bad for half the season he was not a top tier player.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    In Response to Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox:
    [QUOTE]hmm..we get the yanks late season averages but not papis??? is this what passes for honesty on this site?  you can take Papi... i will take tex or cano or grandy or pedroia or agon or ells arod? youk? if healthy (and didnt have to play the field like big sloppy?) stop this insanity that Papi in 2012 is a great bargain at 14 mil for a dh...stupid...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]
    No one said it was a baragin but was the cost of doing business.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    Has anyone noticed that all the facts always make Georom look wrong thats why he ignores them.

     
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    Re: Papi's Last Year with the Red Sox

    If Wakefield had "retired two years ago" as you say he should have, it would have been foolish, as he was coming off of seven straight years of quality-for-a-#5-pitcher innings. 

    Actually, mr hanky (formerly known as softlaw) called for Wake's retirement after the 2007 season. Wake then went on to place 5th in WHIP in 2008 and made the allstar team in 2009. So, at best mr hanky is batting .500 on the Wake issue.
     
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