Patience

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Patience

    While Napoli might look like the best fit for us in the nonpitcher category, but don't you worry about the fact that his OPS has been below his career OPS in 3 of the last 4 years?

    .842

    .784

    1.046

    .812

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    While Napoli might look like the best fit for us in the nonpitcher category, but don't you worry about the fact that his OPS has been below his career OPS in 3 of the last 4 years?

    .842

    .784

    1.046

    .812



    The .812 was despite a nagging hamstring injury.  .842 is nothing to sneeze at.  I see one bad year.  Also: he absolutely kills the ball at Fenway.  On a three year deal (Ages 31,32,33)I would expect .860 at Fenway assuming health. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Patience

    We do not need  a " bridge year " .   That is nonsense. Do you expect fans to turn out and pay big bucks for a " bridge year " , whatever that means.  What it really means is just an excuse for losing.  Do  you really think that our " kids " are any better than other teams " kids " ?  2013 is a bridge to success in 2014 ?     That is ridiculous.   This is business.  We need to be competitive.  You guys who like to  fantasize about possible trades and the future of A Ball prospects are all wrong.    Get real .  The Sox need to do what it takes to contend in 2013.  This can now best be done through spending in the free agent market.  In any trade proposal , the chances are  that Ben will get fleeced by more experienced and smarter G.M.s.   Please stop with the " wanna be "  G.M. stuff and get with reality. We are a last place team . A joke . We need to spend to become a serious contender.  Forget about the length of contract and salary of various players.  Get real and go for it.  Are you all Sox fans , or do you just  enjoy playing this little game of make believe ?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    We do not need  a " bridge year " .   That is nonsense. Do you expect fans to turn out and pay big bucks for a " bridge year " , whatever that means.  What it really means is just an excuse for losing.  Do  you really think that our " kids " are any better than other teams " kids " ?  2013 is a bridge to success in 2014 ?     That is ridiculous.   This is business.  We need to be competitive.  You guys who like to  fantasize about possible trades and the future of A Ball prospects are all wrong.    Get real .  The Sox need to do what it takes to contend in 2013.  This can now best be done through spending in the free agent market.  In any trade proposal , the chances are  that Ben will get fleeced by more experienced and smarter G.M.s.   Please stop with the " wanna be "  G.M. stuff and get with reality. We are a last place team . A joke . We need to spend to become a serious contender.  Forget about the length of contract and salary of various players.  Get real and go for it.  Are you all Sox fans , or do you just  enjoy playing this little game of make believe ?




    What do you suggest? Hamilton at 7/175? Greinke at 5/100M+? Greinke is a horrible fit here and unless hamilton will do a 3 year deal, no way. Thats what got us where were at right now.

    Nobody wants them to spend like a small market team, but nobody wants dumb deals like 7 years and 175M for Hamilton either. The FA market isnt good this year and most of these 30 something players dont deserve more than 2-3 year deals.

    The prospects I start to get excited about are not A-Ball kids. They are the ones who succeed in AA and are ready for AAA or MLB. Once you can play with the advanced pitching and hitting in AA, then I think theres a chance in MLB.

    JBJ, Brentz are just 2 OF'er who have had success in AA and both could be ready this year, if not then def 2014. I dont care to have some 35 yr old being paid to block these kids.

    There is nobody this year in OF or 1b FA that I would give a long contract to. Best to go with a couple 2-3 year deals or maybe a good trade this year. There might be more available at the trade deadline as well...

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    We do not need  a " bridge year " .   That is nonsense. Do you expect fans to turn out and pay big bucks for a " bridge year " , whatever that means.  What it really means is just an excuse for losing.  Do  you really think that our " kids " are any better than other teams " kids " ?  2013 is a bridge to success in 2014 ?     That is ridiculous.   This is business.  We need to be competitive.  You guys who like to  fantasize about possible trades and the future of A Ball prospects are all wrong.    Get real .  The Sox need to do what it takes to contend in 2013.  This can now best be done through spending in the free agent market.  In any trade proposal , the chances are  that Ben will get fleeced by more experienced and smarter G.M.s.   Please stop with the " wanna be "  G.M. stuff and get with reality. We are a last place team . A joke . We need to spend to become a serious contender.  Forget about the length of contract and salary of various players.  Get real and go for it.  Are you all Sox fans , or do you just  enjoy playing this little game of make believe ?




    What do you suggest? Hamilton at 7/175? Greinke at 5/100M+? Greinke is a horrible fit here and unless hamilton will do a 3 year deal, no way. Thats what got us where were at right now.

    Nobody wants them to spend like a small market team, but nobody wants dumb deals like 7 years and 175M for Hamilton either. The FA market isnt good this year and most of these 30 something players dont deserve more than 2-3 year deals.

    The prospects I start to get excited about are not A-Ball kids. They are the ones who succeed in AA and are ready for AAA or MLB. Once you can play with the advanced pitching and hitting in AA, then I think theres a chance in MLB.

    JBJ, Brentz are just 2 OF'er who have had success in AA and both could be ready this year, if not then def 2014. I dont care to have some 35 yr old being paid to block these kids.

    There is nobody this year in OF or 1b FA that I would give a long contract to. Best to go with a couple 2-3 year deals or maybe a good trade this year. There might be more available at the trade deadline as well...



    I think its small market philosophy to hold spots open for the kids.  If we have a mid thirty-something year old who is getting paid 12M/yr to block a kid, we can always trade him (a la Youk).  We dont know which of the kids are going to pan out and which ones arent.  Better prospects than JBJ fizzle every year.  I say sign the free-agents to 2-3 year deals, and if they lose their job to a kid, they lose their job.

    The downside of this is that we may waste 12M in the final year of the contract (like we did w Youk because we absorbed most of the final yaer), but to me, thats an acceptable casualty.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Patience

    I think some are scared off because of the mistakes with Crawford and Lackey.  But the fact is that we have got to spend money to improve.  It is simply not realistic to expect our minor league prospects to all develop into impact major leaguers.  I would be very happy ( and very surprised ) if Bradley and/or Brentz ever became the player that Hamilton is.   Many on here are having fun playing G.M. and throwing around numbers.  They seem content to accept failure in 2013 in exchange for an improved team in 2014.  There is nothing to indicate that will work.   The Red Sox should make every effort to win it all in 2013 and every year.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I think some are scared off because of the mistakes with Crawford and Lackey.  But the fact is that we have got to spend money to improve.  It is simply not realistic to expect our minor league prospects to all develop into impact major leaguers.  I would be very happy ( and very surprised ) if Bradley and/or Brentz ever became the player that Hamilton is.   Many on here are having fun playing G.M. and throwing around numbers.  They seem content to accept failure in 2013 in exchange for an improved team in 2014.  There is nothing to indicate that will work.   The Red Sox should make every effort to win it all in 2013 and every year.


    I think folks here "throw numbers around" because they're trying to be realistic about who to sign, without repeating the mistakes the were made in the last couple of years.

    So, how much do you want to give Hamilton and for how many years?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to boborielly224's comment:

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    I'd trade Wakefield and some potato salad for one year of Dickey.




    Potato salad is that with eggs or w/o eggs. I like my potato salad with eggs and fresh chives. If you can do that for me and throw in some hamburgers to sweeten the deal.  What the hell I want to be greedy some apple pies also. I can't forget about the macaroni and cheese. I think this will be a good trade for myself. LOL




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I think some are scared off because of the mistakes with Crawford and Lackey.  But the fact is that we have got to spend money to improve.  It is simply not realistic to expect our minor league prospects to all develop into impact major leaguers.  I would be very happy ( and very surprised ) if Bradley and/or Brentz ever became the player that Hamilton is.   Many on here are having fun playing G.M. and throwing around numbers.  They seem content to accept failure in 2013 in exchange for an improved team in 2014.  There is nothing to indicate that will work.   The Red Sox should make every effort to win it all in 2013 and every year.


    I think folks here "throw numbers around" because they're trying to be realistic about who to sign, without repeating the mistakes the were made in the last couple of years.

    So, how much do you want to give Hamilton and for how many years?



    That is strictly up to John Henry, as to how much he can afford and how much he is willing to spend. We have no input. I just want a championship caliber team.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I think some are scared off because of the mistakes with Crawford and Lackey.  But the fact is that we have got to spend money to improve.  It is simply not realistic to expect our minor league prospects to all develop into impact major leaguers.  I would be very happy ( and very surprised ) if Bradley and/or Brentz ever became the player that Hamilton is.   Many on here are having fun playing G.M. and throwing around numbers.  They seem content to accept failure in 2013 in exchange for an improved team in 2014.  There is nothing to indicate that will work.   The Red Sox should make every effort to win it all in 2013 and every year.


    I think folks here "throw numbers around" because they're trying to be realistic about who to sign, without repeating the mistakes the were made in the last couple of years.

    So, how much do you want to give Hamilton and for how many years?




    For me 4/120 with a option for a fifth would be my breaking point on hamilton. Offer a Higher AAV  in place of more years.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to dblock33644's comment:

    The red sox organization and fans need patience potentially having one of the higher payrolls in baseball just to shut the fans up is crazy. I think we need a bridge year, and it should be now. I think they should fill holes with short term contracts 1,2 year deals and let the prospects develop. sihn laroche or napoli and haren amd the two japenese pitchers and th rest of gaps should be filled in house. i say give iglesias and kalish a shot and see what you have really have with your young guys.get another outfielder and see what happens. having one of the bigger payrolls in baseball like cherrington is proposing is not the answer. i think we tried that last year and look were it got us.

     unfortunately(not saying the Sox fanbase specifically) we live in a fandom culture of "give it to me now"...when fanbases get spoiled by winning it gets hard to factor in  the "big picture"...  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to xXR3S1NXx's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I think some are scared off because of the mistakes with Crawford and Lackey.  But the fact is that we have got to spend money to improve.  It is simply not realistic to expect our minor league prospects to all develop into impact major leaguers.  I would be very happy ( and very surprised ) if Bradley and/or Brentz ever became the player that Hamilton is.   Many on here are having fun playing G.M. and throwing around numbers.  They seem content to accept failure in 2013 in exchange for an improved team in 2014.  There is nothing to indicate that will work.   The Red Sox should make every effort to win it all in 2013 and every year.


    I think folks here "throw numbers around" because they're trying to be realistic about who to sign, without repeating the mistakes the were made in the last couple of years.

    So, how much do you want to give Hamilton and for how many years?




    For me 4/120 with a option for a fifth would be my breaking point on hamilton. Offer a Higher AAV  in place of more years.



    I'd offer 3/90 guaranteed with vesting option (provided health) for a 4th year at 25M

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from VeniceSox. Show VeniceSox's posts

    Re: Patience

    my wish list to start is Kuroda, Napoli, Ross.......

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dblock33644. Show dblock33644's posts

    Re: Patience

    I never said that we should go with the small market template for success, what In am suggesting is that were patient and dont get uptight because we dont sign the top free agents at every position. if we dont win this year thats ok it took time to put us in hole it will take time to get out. As far as the prospects we need to give them more time, if they cant figure it out, next year we move on. free agents should fill spots. look at the giants 2 championchips in 3 years led by a core mostly of low cost free agent cast offs and there farm system

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    We do not need  a " bridge year " .   That is nonsense. Do you expect fans to turn out and pay big bucks for a " bridge year " , whatever that means.  What it really means is just an excuse for losing.  Do  you really think that our " kids " are any better than other teams " kids " ?  2013 is a bridge to success in 2014 ?     That is ridiculous.   This is business.  We need to be competitive.  You guys who like to  fantasize about possible trades and the future of A Ball prospects are all wrong.    Get real .  The Sox need to do what it takes to contend in 2013.  This can now best be done through spending in the free agent market.  In any trade proposal , the chances are  that Ben will get fleeced by more experienced and smarter G.M.s.   Please stop with the " wanna be "  G.M. stuff and get with reality. We are a last place team . A joke . We need to spend to become a serious contender.  Forget about the length of contract and salary of various players.  Get real and go for it.  Are you all Sox fans , or do you just  enjoy playing this little game of make believe ?




    What do you suggest? Hamilton at 7/175? Greinke at 5/100M+? Greinke is a horrible fit here and unless hamilton will do a 3 year deal, no way. Thats what got us where were at right now.

    Nobody wants them to spend like a small market team, but nobody wants dumb deals like 7 years and 175M for Hamilton either. The FA market isnt good this year and most of these 30 something players dont deserve more than 2-3 year deals.

    The prospects I start to get excited about are not A-Ball kids. They are the ones who succeed in AA and are ready for AAA or MLB. Once you can play with the advanced pitching and hitting in AA, then I think theres a chance in MLB.

    JBJ, Brentz are just 2 OF'er who have had success in AA and both could be ready this year, if not then def 2014. I dont care to have some 35 yr old being paid to block these kids.

    There is nobody this year in OF or 1b FA that I would give a long contract to. Best to go with a couple 2-3 year deals or maybe a good trade this year. There might be more available at the trade deadline as well...



    I think its small market philosophy to hold spots open for the kids.  If we have a mid thirty-something year old who is getting paid 12M/yr to block a kid, we can always trade him (a la Youk).  We dont know which of the kids are going to pan out and which ones arent.  Better prospects than JBJ fizzle every year.  I say sign the free-agents to 2-3 year deals, and if they lose their job to a kid, they lose their job.

    The downside of this is that we may waste 12M in the final year of the contract (like we did w Youk because we absorbed most of the final yaer), but to me, thats an acceptable casualty.




    Thats why is suggested 1,2 or even 3 year deals. I wasnt saying dont sign any older FA, just the hamilton types for that long.

    We got extremely LUCKY with the LAD deal. That probably wouldnt happen again and if we go right back to that plan we probably wont be as lucky.

    1-3 yr deals with 30 somethings to fill holes is how FA should be used. there are always exceptions to the rules, but nothing this year warrants that exception.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Patience

    Berkman....lolol

    Ben - just stop, please

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bt33. Show bt33's posts

    Re: Patience

    As many others have noted, the key isn't even the money spent per year it's the length of the deals. Paying aging FAs big money for long term deals simply does not work. Doesn't mean teams won't keep doing it, but that doesn't mean THIS team has to continue along the same path that got them in so much trouble. This philosophy can be difficult, and sometimes it means walking away from a veteran player who wants too many years. Because the sox have payroll they do they can afford to overpay for certain players, but should do so only for one and two year deals. Is it okay to to commit to an anibal sanchez for 6 and 90? I'm not sure. But if you do you better be real sure he's the guy you want to roll with as the guy to pitch alongside lester and bucholtz moving forward. if not, if there is doubt, than pay healthy one or two year deals for kuroda or edwin jackson, and/or take a calculated risk on someone like mcccarthy etc. just doesn't make sense to commit, for instance, to someone like kyle lohse for the long term deal he's looking for. Too risky. Greinke and hamilton have potentially huge off the field issues and this is as big a market as it gets - why take the chance when that kind of money is on the line. Better to build from within, rent quality FAs for a year a two by paying top dollar, and only make a move long term when they've identified their must haves - those few players who are coming out of their arbitration years. Either that or trade for guys on the cusp who smaller market teams know they are going to lose. 

    Think it should be noted when people refer to a bridge year there are a number of reasons for this - part of that reasoning is that the sox have a handful of appealing prospects who are a year or two away and the anticipation is that players like brentz, bradley, bogaerts, barnes, et al are going to have a major impact on the team and integrating them into the mix precludes making giant deals at certain spots. 

    the confusing thing for fans is when the team makes all these statements about not taking on huge, long term FA contracts and then also makes statements about having one of the highest payrolls in the league. It makes cherington sound like simply a mouthpiece for ownership. Think most informed fams would settle for a philosophy that involves developing players and making some free agent signings that don't feel like moves made simply to appease the fan base and ensure ticket sales. i thin it's the condescension that sox fans hate the most. 

    this is not to say that people would be satisfied with, say, a 70 million dollar payroll because we all know they can spend more and have the resources to do it. if you want to charge top dollar for everything and tout yourself as a world class organization you have to spend some money. also don't think the payroll number in and of itself is the most important thing to most fans. think what gthe fan base wants is good, solid moves that make sense. sure, no gm or organization bats 100% with personnel moves, but when you do things that don't make sense - signings like matusaka, lugo, cameron, crawford, drew, etc. this fan base knows it and gets angry when they don't work out (of course they didn't work out). 

    now of course some moves are going to come with risks - without some risk it's hard to hit the jackpot, but the basic philosophy should not be about counting on ga,bling with aging FAs on huge long term deals. minimze risk by developing talent, stocking up on pitching, and fill in the gaps with high priced, but short term deals, puling the trigger on longer deals only for the highest priority, top talent. and when it comes to those deals gms are paid to guess right. barring freak injury the baseball people get paid to make those calls - their jobs do and should depend on it. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from proftom2. Show proftom2's posts

    Re: Patience

    I want a good mental health year.  I want to root for Jacoby, Pedi, Papi, Iggy, Cici, Midds, Kalish, Sweeny, Salty, Ross, Lava, Lester, Buch, Doub, Lacky, Bailey, Bard and hope for surpirses from the big Gonzo trade. I'd like to see them add Bay a couple of other low cost high risk types. I am hoping for a couple of blessings and say a few prayers rather than watch high priced free agents.

    I want to enjoy well played Red Sox baseball for the entire season. If they win a bunch of game great, if they don't maybe next year. I am not into the bridge year theory. I am into watching good baseball with a team you can hope for and be happy with. 

         

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Patience

    As long as some good moves are made I will be happy. I dont expect them to rebuild this thing overnight. As long as they are moving forward in a positive way to long term success, Im ok with it.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Patience

    Another 90 loss season and this organization will be in a complete free fall.

     

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Patience

    Unless there are the same amount of injuries and the same clubhouse atmosphere, I dont see 90 loses again.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Patience

    In response to dblock33644's comment:

    The red sox organization and fans need patience potentially having one of the higher payrolls in baseball just to shut the fans up is crazy. I think we need a bridge year, and it should be now. I think they should fill holes with short term contracts 1,2 year deals and let the prospects develop. sihn laroche or napoli and haren amd the two japenese pitchers and th rest of gaps should be filled in house. i say give iglesias and kalish a shot and see what you have really have with your young guys.get another outfielder and see what happens. having one of the bigger payrolls in baseball like cherrington is proposing is not the answer. i think we tried that last year and look were it got us.




    Count me in. Look RS won 69 games last year even if they make a big signing lets face it they're still not winning a WS next yr. The RS need about 4-5 more players like Will Middlebrooks to come up to big club and make an impact before we really can talk about WS contending teams. Maybe with a couple of signings they might be able to get into playoff hunt but this won't be a WS contender until the likes of Barnes / Bradley / Webster / De La Rosa / Brentz / Kalish / Iggy / Boegarts / Swihart / Owens & hopefully others start to make way to Fenway. Unfortunately for RS fans we need to be patient, but 2014-15 things will start to look a whole lot better in Boston. But lets face it there is a bright side, if the Yanks are serious about getting down to the 189 mil payroll threshold by 2014 to get the luxury tax discount/rebate. They will not be a 95 win team next year. Jeter / Arod / Mo / Pettite / CC / Kuroda / Granderson are not getting any younger and have seen their best days. They will be forced to try and devolope from within and their farm system is no where near as strong as RS. Plus will need to come up w/ big contracts for Cano and Granderson [think Yanks wish they still had A.Jackson at this point]. Yanks are in a difficult spot. Could see a decline the same as RS after Vtek/Wakefield/Schilling /Manny/Pedro /etc all came to an end of career. Their is light at end of tunnel, just need to stay the course and hope that this next group can match what Pedroia / Lester / Youk / Buchholz / Ellsbury / Hanley Ramirez / Delcarmen / Papelbon all did to help 07 RS win it all.

     
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