1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to slomag's comment:

    Oh, good - I finally get to talk about this on a relevant thread.

    Sometimes the accusations become the story - I don't have all the facts, but what I do know makes me doubt that Ortiz ever failed a drug test.

    1) MLB confirms that there were at most 96 failed drug tests, but there were 104 names on "the list"

    2) Ortiz and Ramirez's names were leaked together and alone in 2009 to a New York paper - that feels more like somebody with an anti-sox agenda than some sort of whistle-blower;  it's a little selective.

    3) Ortiz's best years were 2005 - 2007.  Look at the guys you know were juicing - Sosa, Sheffield, Burnitz - these guys were all done by 2005.  Giambi still had a couple of good years left in him, but he was more than 200 OPS points off his peak - that's a pretty big decline for a 34-year-old.

    4) Ortiz is one of only two guys leaked from the list whose positive substance is listed as 'unknown'

    5) Ortiz didn't just deny taking PEDs - he denied anybody ever contacting him about his test.  If Ortiz was taking PEDs, he's pretty much the lowest character on "the list" - to not only lie about the crime (that had become almost common-place by 2009) but to lie about even knowing about the crime.

    6) Ortiz has always maintained his innocence - the only reason he mentioned supplements was because the prevailing theory was that "the list" contained the names of a preliminary drug test that was later pared down to 96 names after false positives were removed.  There were legal OTC supplements that triggered false positives.

    7) Ortiz to this day has harsh words about PED users, calling ballplayers the "stupidest people on earth" when asked about the Biogenesis scandal.

    Bottom line - we heard Ortiz's name on a list of cheaters and jumped to conclusions that looked a lot more supportable in 2009 when he was struggling mightily.  Ortiz is hot right now, but if he finishes the year with an OPS just below 1, and a slugging in the high .500s that's just about right for his career trajectory.

     

    Slo,i get where you're coming from, but if you remember, originally of that list Alex was the first and only name leaked, up to that point...


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    Oh, good - I finally get to talk about this on a relevant thread.

    Sometimes the accusations become the story - I don't have all the facts, but what I do know makes me doubt that Ortiz ever failed a drug test.

    1) MLB confirms that there were at most 96 failed drug tests, but there were 104 names on "the list"

    2) Ortiz and Ramirez's names were leaked together and alone in 2009 to a New York paper - that feels more like somebody with an anti-sox agenda than some sort of whistle-blower;  it's a little selective.

    3) Ortiz's best years were 2005 - 2007.  Look at the guys you know were juicing - Sosa, Sheffield, Burnitz - these guys were all done by 2005.  Giambi still had a couple of good years left in him, but he was more than 200 OPS points off his peak - that's a pretty big decline for a 34-year-old.

    4) Ortiz is one of only two guys leaked from the list whose positive substance is listed as 'unknown'

    5) Ortiz didn't just deny taking PEDs - he denied anybody ever contacting him about his test.  If Ortiz was taking PEDs, he's pretty much the lowest character on "the list" - to not only lie about the crime (that had become almost common-place by 2009) but to lie about even knowing about the crime.

    6) Ortiz has always maintained his innocence - the only reason he mentioned supplements was because the prevailing theory was that "the list" contained the names of a preliminary drug test that was later pared down to 96 names after false positives were removed.  There were legal OTC supplements that triggered false positives.

    7) Ortiz to this day has harsh words about PED users, calling ballplayers the "stupidest people on earth" when asked about the Biogenesis scandal.

    Bottom line - we heard Ortiz's name on a list of cheaters and jumped to conclusions that looked a lot more supportable in 2009 when he was struggling mightily.  Ortiz is hot right now, but if he finishes the year with an OPS just below 1, and a slugging in the high .500s that's just about right for his career trajectory.

     

     

    Slo,i get where you're coming from, but if you remember, originally of that list Alex was the first and only name leaked, up to that point...


     




    Yeah, but we know nobody likes A-Rod. Wink

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    It's possible of course, but here are some good reasons why Ortiz using PED's is unlikely--

    1.  He knows MLB is going to be looking.

    2.  He isn't hitting a bunch of dingers, but is hitting a lot balls solidly to all fields, something he learned from AGON.  I do not see how PED's can make you smarter.  Almost without exception the known PED users had lots of dingers.  Ellsbury was a better target for accusations in 2011 than Ortiz is this year.  AGon before the second half of 2011 was a better target.  And so on. 

    3.  He's got a contract for two years for a lot of money, but it almost certainly loses him money if he is found to be using PED's.  Why would he jeopardize that?  Given his age, he is unlikely to be looking for a big contract beyond 2014.  The current contract pays more if he plays more games, which again would be jeopardized if he were caught using PED's.  If PED's can fix sore achilles tendons, maybe there is a case, but I don't think they do. 

    Bottom line:  Ortiz was consistently a terrific hitter for the Sox and I think got a new lease on life after watching how AGon hit to all fields effectively.  They showed the Twins defense last night, and it basically looked as though they are playing him straight up, including the SS and 3B both on the left side of the infield, etc. Ted Williams said he continued to pull the ball after the "Williams shift" was created because that kept his swing the same, got him more dingers, and did not prevent him from getting lots of other hits because a hard hit ball is usually going to find a hole.  Right now it sure looks as though Ortiz is using the green monster, not for short dingers, but for more doubles, etc. 

     

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to edsam44's comment:

    In response to BostonProSportsLover's comment:

    still waiting for him to "get back to us" from 2 1/2 years ago

     

    LEAVE IT TO DAN THE SHAUGHNESSEY TO MAKE THE BLUNT ACCUSATION RIGHT TO PAPI'S FACE LAST NIGHT. PAP SAID HE HAS TO FEED HIS FAMILY AND WILL NOT HUMILIATE his legacy and that he guarantees he's clean. listening to the eei guys and they are almost outright saying papi is a fraud. said its impossible for him to b clean. noone's ever been this good at this age, with improved bat speedand everything else. if its too good to b true, they believe it. how can one not play for so long, have achilles issues and b hitting .425+ and having the best stretch of his career at his age.. i personally think the papi is not cheating but i can get where folks are coming from like with buch. after all, papi was the only one not to b held to account for his previous PED bust. said it was vitamins and like OJ promised to find the real culprit, only to fizzle that out. papi is on notice, if he is busted, many would not b surprised. pap said he was tested once for blood during spring traiing, the guys suspect he's been on the juice since pawtucket! stay tuned..

     




     




    Keep waiting...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    No one has ever been this good at this age??

     

    They should go look up the numbers Ted Williams was putting up at ages 38 and 39.

     

    Also Paul Molitor and Stan Musial after age 38.

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     



    I have plenty o' faith Bill.  I am basing my disbelief of your "heart of hearts" hoping on your absolutely horrendous and clearly gratifying predictions of doom for Papi.  Clearly a source of gratification and/or power for you, or you wouldn;t have harped on it and obsessed on it for as long as you did.  Only his fantastic crushing of your predictions managed to stop your endless ranting about him being done (more or less, though you managed to take a cue from Softy and move the goal posts to "keep an eye on that heel").   Sorry not buying your heart of hearts hoping for him.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    Ted Williams, obviously on PED's, hit .388 at age 38. 

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    I have to shake my head at those who brag about not reading a columnist because they disagree with them. It smacks of burying your head in the sand, not willing to consider opposing views. Of course, you don't have to like everyone nor read everyone, but there's often a knee-jerk reaction simply because you disagree with the opinion.

    In this case, Shaughnessy didn't even express an opinion. He never said he thinks Ortiz is "juicing." And he never accused Ortiz. Just because he asked the questions, it doesn't mean he's accusing Ortiz. It is out there because it's always out there nowadays on players who have great numbers in their late 30s, especially considering that Ortiz's name popped up on the 2003 state.

    Unlike cowards like those Blue Jays announcers who hid up in the booth and started spewing unfounded charges at Buchholz, Shaughnessy faced Ortiz man to man and asked him specifically to discuss the subject. To me, it gave Ortiz the chance to publicly refute the talk that has been whispered by fans and other writers.

    Ortiz has never tested positive on anything since the tests began, including more stingent testing the WBC did. So I'll believe him.

    I simply don't understand the viewpoint that we should shy away discussing uncomfortable topics.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     

     



    I have plenty o' faith Bill.  I am basing my disbelief of your "heart of hearts" hoping on your absolutely horrendous and clearly gratifying predictions of doom for Papi.  Clearly a source of gratification and/or power for you, or you wouldn;t have harped on it and obsessed on it for as long as you did.  Only his fantastic crushing of your predictions managed to stop your endless ranting about him being done (more or less, though you managed to take a cue from Softy and move the goal posts to "keep an eye on that heel").   Sorry not buying your heart of hearts hoping for him.

     

    SPACE.......  GRATIFICATION..........?????  I would rather call it,  knowing my baseball"  !!

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     

     



    I have plenty o' faith Bill.  I am basing my disbelief of your "heart of hearts" hoping on your absolutely horrendous and clearly gratifying predictions of doom for Papi.  Clearly a source of gratification and/or power for you, or you wouldn;t have harped on it and obsessed on it for as long as you did.  Only his fantastic crushing of your predictions managed to stop your endless ranting about him being done (more or less, though you managed to take a cue from Softy and move the goal posts to "keep an eye on that heel").   Sorry not buying your heart of hearts hoping for him.

     

     

    SPACE.......  GRATIFICATION..........?????  I would rather call it,  knowing my baseball"  !!

     



    Really Bill?  Well, then I guess you didn't really know your baseball did you?  Papi not only wasn't DONE, he came back picking right up where he left off before his injury, in full rennaisance mode.  

    Anyway, ask DAD about the expression "you made you bed, now you have to lie in it".  You will have to excuse all of us out here who cast a shadow of doubt over any positivity you now choose to express over David Ortiz.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     

     



    I have plenty o' faith Bill.  I am basing my disbelief of your "heart of hearts" hoping on your absolutely horrendous and clearly gratifying predictions of doom for Papi.  Clearly a source of gratification and/or power for you, or you wouldn;t have harped on it and obsessed on it for as long as you did.  Only his fantastic crushing of your predictions managed to stop your endless ranting about him being done (more or less, though you managed to take a cue from Softy and move the goal posts to "keep an eye on that heel").   Sorry not buying your heart of hearts hoping for him.

     

     

    SPACE.......  GRATIFICATION..........?????  I would rather call it,  knowing my baseball"  !!

     

     



    Really Bill?  Well, then I guess you didn't really know your baseball did you?  Papi not only wasn't DONE, he came back picking right up where he left off before his injury, in full rennaisance mode.  

     

    Anyway, ask DAD about the expression "you made you bed, now you have to lie in it".  You will have to excuse all of us out here who cast a shadow of doubt over any positivity you now choose to express over David Ortiz.

    [/QUOTEAgain, your right SPACE.......  And I know that I am the one on this board ( & SOFTY) that has EGG on my face for the great return of PAPI......  Howevaa, I still maintain that even with this great comeback, PAPI is still "one pull away" from the end......  Also, since he has returned, the entire Red Sox approach has been "wait for the big hit" and less use of what worked early in the year, being speed,defense and keep the other team off balance......  That said, I have always respected your wisdom & humor on our board !!!   Keep up the good work !!!!    GO SOX    (CHANGES COMING)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    First lets get one thing straight - Shaughnessy is a complete idiot. All he does is try to create controversy. He's not a journalist but a sh_t disturber! He was the the biggest clown prior to 04 w/ the curse and all the other nonsense he would throw out. Now he doesn't know what to do w/ RS winning 2 WS titles in past 10 yrs, and team off to good start this year. So lets just throw some allegations out against one of the most beloved RS players of all time to stir the pot - what a great journalist. I never read anything that this guy prints. Good journalists print the facts, until I see some facts about Ortiz, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to BostonProSportsLover's comment:

    LEAVE IT TO DAN THE SHAUGHNESSEY TO MAKE THE BLUNT ACCUSATION RIGHT TO PAPI'S FACE LAST NIGHT. PAP SAID HE HAS TO FEED HIS FAMILY AND WILL NOT HUMILIATE his legacy and that he guarantees he's clean. listening to the eei guys and they are almost outright saying papi is a fraud. said its impossible for him to b clean. noone's ever been this good at this age, with improved bat speedand everything else. if its too good to b true, they believe it. how can one not play for so long, have achilles issues and b hitting .425+ and having the best stretch of his career at his age.. i personally think the papi is not cheating but i can get where folks are coming from like with buch. after all, papi was the only one not to b held to account for his previous PED bust. said it was vitamins and like OJ promised to find the real culprit, only to fizzle that out. papi is on notice, if he is busted, many would not b surprised. pap said he was tested once for blood during spring traiing, the guys suspect he's been on the juice since pawtucket! stay tuned..



    Well, you know something Contrarian ?  Big Papi doesn't have to cheat, like that nasty old Bobby Heenan. Big Papi just has to train,  say his prayers , eat his vitamins and believe in himself. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

    Carl Everett was a complete tool, but you have to give him credit where it's due when he pegged Shaughnessy as the CHB.

     

    Luckily he's stuck behind the paywall so I can't even accidently click on his dribble.


    Carl Everett deserves no credit for what he did on and off the field.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    3.  He's got a contract for two years for a lot of money, but it almost certainly loses him money if he is found to be using PED's.  Why would he jeopardize that? 

    yet so many of us think arod is using

    and he has a much bigger contract at risk

     

     Right now it sure looks as though Ortiz is using the green monster, not for short dingers, but for more doubles, etc. 

     

    no question ortiz is going the other way more

    thus explains the divorce ;-)

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    3.  He's got a contract for two years for a lot of money, but it almost certainly loses him money if he is found to be using PED's.  Why would he jeopardize that? 

    yet so many of us think arod is using

    and he has a much bigger contract at risk

     

     Right now it sure looks as though Ortiz is using the green monster, not for short dingers, but for more doubles, etc. 

     

    no question ortiz is going the other way more

    thus explains the divorce ;-)

     




    Obviously, A-rod just isn't very bright...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    I have to shake my head at those who brag about not reading a columnist because they disagree with them. It smacks of burying your head in the sand, not willing to consider opposing views. Of course, you don't have to like everyone nor read everyone, but there's often a knee-jerk reaction simply because you disagree with the opinion.

    In this case, Shaughnessy didn't even express an opinion. He never said he thinks Ortiz is "juicing." And he never accused Ortiz. Just because he asked the questions, it doesn't mean he's accusing Ortiz. It is out there because it's always out there nowadays on players who have great numbers in their late 30s, especially considering that Ortiz's name popped up on the 2003 state.

    Unlike cowards like those Blue Jays announcers who hid up in the booth and started spewing unfounded charges at Buchholz, Shaughnessy faced Ortiz man to man and asked him specifically to discuss the subject. To me, it gave Ortiz the chance to publicly refute the talk that has been whispered by fans and other writers.

    Ortiz has never tested positive on anything since the tests began, including more stingent testing the WBC did. So I'll believe him.

    I simply don't understand the viewpoint that we should shy away discussing uncomfortable topics.

     




     

    How often should the same innuendo and speculation be discussed. Isn't is redundant and boring? If there is no evidence then why deliberate over nothing?  Do men whipping a dead horse out in the meadow define a great spectator happening? When do you say "Enough already, give it a rest?" Attacking the character of a Red Sox favorite player over and over again without evidence is unbecoming of a fan. Do you suggest that Ortiz be heckled at Fenway by those who have doubts?  Why not new material for the forum.




    Funny, all I see is everyone sticking up for Papi and believing he is innocent. Your fight isnt with the forum, but with the writer that decided to ask papi the "though questions" that have been asked a million times as if he was honorable and should be commended for doing it face to face. Bottom line is there was no reason to even ask papi these questions for the umpteenbillioneth time.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:


    Obviously, A-rod just isn't very bright...

     

    yet according to so many in RSN

    he cheated  his way to over 300 mill

    seems pretty bright to me

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    In my  "HEART OF HEARTS", I hope this is not true !!!!!

     



    yeah right

     

     

    Spaceman,  I beg your pardon.......  "Ye of little faith"  !!!!

     

     



    I have plenty o' faith Bill.  I am basing my disbelief of your "heart of hearts" hoping on your absolutely horrendous and clearly gratifying predictions of doom for Papi.  Clearly a source of gratification and/or power for you, or you wouldn;t have harped on it and obsessed on it for as long as you did.  Only his fantastic crushing of your predictions managed to stop your endless ranting about him being done (more or less, though you managed to take a cue from Softy and move the goal posts to "keep an eye on that heel").   Sorry not buying your heart of hearts hoping for him.

     

     

    SPACE.......  GRATIFICATION..........?????  I would rather call it,  knowing my baseball"  !!

     

     



    Really Bill?  Well, then I guess you didn't really know your baseball did you?  Papi not only wasn't DONE, he came back picking right up where he left off before his injury, in full rennaisance mode.  

     

    Anyway, ask DAD about the expression "you made you bed, now you have to lie in it".  You will have to excuse all of us out here who cast a shadow of doubt over any positivity you now choose to express over David Ortiz.

    [/QUOTEAgain, your right SPACE.......  And I know that I am the one on this board ( & SOFTY) that has EGG on my face for the great return of PAPI......  Howevaa, I still maintain that even with this great comeback, PAPI is still "one pull away" from the end......  Also, since he has returned, the entire Red Sox approach has been "wait for the big hit" and less use of what worked early in the year, being speed,defense and keep the other team off balance......  That said, I have always respected your wisdom & humor on our board !!!   Keep up the good work !!!!    GO SOX    (CHANGES COMING)

     



    I don't have the numbers at my finger tips Bill.  But, maybe we are watching this club in parrallel universes, your universe having split off due to the metaphysical vibrations of Papi's return.  I don't see any difference in the approach on the basepaths since his return, other than losing Bradley's wheels (though he wasn't exactly egtting on base enough to use them).  This club has still been very aggressive (some might argue overly-so ... not me) with Papi in the line-up.  The pressure-style took more of a hit with Victorino's absence than it did with papi's presence.  It was Shane Victorino who was the focal point of the exciting new offensive approach.  His absence definitely took a little edge off of that.  But, they seem to still be aggressive to me.  And, as for defense, obviously Iglesias is a great shortstop.  But, Drew thus far has been playing some fine defense, much to the surprise of many (but none who have actually watched the guy play in the past).  And, Bradley, though a tremendous defensive asset, was botching p[lays out there, and let us not sleep on the fact the Daniel Nava has been more than holding his own.  He has turned into a good left-fielder, particularly for Fenway.  

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:


    Obviously, A-rod just isn't very bright...

     

    yet according to so many in RSN

    he cheated  his way to over 300 mill

    seems pretty bright to me

     




    Sorry, the Yankees being stupid with their money doesn't make A-rod bright.

    Boras, on the other hand, is a smart guy...

     
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