PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    I agree with royf19--it's OK if Shaugnessy raises the subject because it is probably on some peoples' minds.  It's also possible Ortiz is guilty, but I don't think so for reasons stated above.  It's a good topic for a thread. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I agree with royf19--it's OK if Shaugnessy raises the subject because it is probably on some peoples' minds.  It's also possible Ortiz is guilty, but I don't think so for reasons stated above.  It's a good topic for a thread. 



    To me, the weakest argument I've heard for why he could be guilty is when people say -- he looked washed up three years ago.

    They're basing it on TWO BAD MONTHS to start the 2009 season and look at his .238 batting average. What they conveniently ignore is the fact that Ortiz was recovering from the wrist injury. 

    Yaz was better at 37-38-39 than he was at 32-33 because he was healthier. Yaz had some injuries in 1971, the worst of which was the wrist injury that sapped his power for basically one year -- the last month or so 1971 and the first four or five months of 1972. When he got the wrist stronger, he got some of his power back.

    So it's not hard to blame the first two months of 2009 on Ortiz's wrist injury. The last four months, his power and RBI numbers were great and he batted almost .270.

    Since then, he's been fine. He had a bad month to start 2010 but if you look around, it's not odd to find power hitters who have bad Aprils. May came he started raking. His problem that year, which might be traced back to the wrist injury when his swing was probably affected, was that his numbers weren't great against lefites. But traditionally, Ortiz was good against lefties. So it isn't hard to believe that he worked on his approach against lefties and got back to where he was against them.

    In the pre-steroid era, it wasn't odd for power hitters to reach their early 30s then fall apart. But there have been hitters who have hit well into their late 30s too.

    So if people are going to raise plausible scenarios on why he's guilty, they also need to look at plausible scenarios on why he could be clean too.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to slomag's comment:

    Oh, good - I finally get to talk about this on a relevant thread.

    Sometimes the accusations become the story - I don't have all the facts, but what I do know makes me doubt that Ortiz ever failed a drug test.

    1) MLB confirms that there were at most 96 failed drug tests, but there were 104 names on "the list"

    2) Ortiz and Ramirez's names were leaked together and alone in 2009 to a New York paper - that feels more like somebody with an anti-sox agenda than some sort of whistle-blower;  it's a little selective.

    3) Ortiz's best years were 2005 - 2007.  Look at the guys you know were juicing - Sosa, Sheffield, Burnitz - these guys were all done by 2005.  Giambi still had a couple of good years left in him, but he was more than 200 OPS points off his peak - that's a pretty big decline for a 34-year-old.

    4) Ortiz is one of only two guys leaked from the list whose positive substance is listed as 'unknown'

    5) Ortiz didn't just deny taking PEDs - he denied anybody ever contacting him about his test.  If Ortiz was taking PEDs, he's pretty much the lowest character on "the list" - to not only lie about the crime (that had become almost common-place by 2009) but to lie about even knowing about the crime.

    6) Ortiz has always maintained his innocence - the only reason he mentioned supplements was because the prevailing theory was that "the list" contained the names of a preliminary drug test that was later pared down to 96 names after false positives were removed.  There were legal OTC supplements that triggered false positives.

    7) Ortiz to this day has harsh words about PED users, calling ballplayers the "stupidest people on earth" when asked about the Biogenesis scandal.

    Bottom line - we heard Ortiz's name on a list of cheaters and jumped to conclusions that looked a lot more supportable in 2009 when he was struggling mightily.  Ortiz is hot right now, but if he finishes the year with an OPS just below 1, and a slugging in the high .500s that's just about right for his career trajectory.

     




    i love this post.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    3.  He's got a contract for two years for a lot of money, but it almost certainly loses him money if he is found to be using PED's.  Why would he jeopardize that? 

    yet so many of us think arod is using

    and he has a much bigger contract at risk

     



    this logic is completely flawed.  Alex has a GUARANTEED contract thru the 2017 season paying him an exhorbinant amount of money whether he cheats or not.  there is no risk until he is actually suspended 2x and there is a threat of the 3rd strike.  ortiz is not in this same golden boat.  another yankee fan comparing apples to chicken wings.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to notin's comment:

    No one has ever been this good at this age??

     

    They should go look up the numbers Ted Williams was putting up at ages 38 and 39.

     

    Also Paul Molitor and Stan Musial after age 38.

     

     



    Roy Hobbs, too. Hit the cover off the ball in his 40s.

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    3.  He's got a contract for two years for a lot of money, but it almost certainly loses him money if he is found to be using PED's.  Why would he jeopardize that? 

    yet so many of us think arod is using

    and he has a much bigger contract at risk

     

     



    this logic is completely flawed.  Alex has a GUARANTEED contract thru the 2017 season paying him an exhorbinant amount of money whether he cheats or not.  there is no risk until he is actually suspended 2x and there is a threat of the 3rd strike.  ortiz is not in this same golden boat.  another yankee fan comparing apples to chicken wings.

     




    not sure what U mean by 2x

    but I'm thinking U made my point stronger

    arod had less motive and more to lose

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    shaughnessy should apologize for even suggesting that Ortiz was still on steroids.  Guys on roids don't go 0 for 5 for the night or 2 for 13 on a home stand.




    Get back to me when Ortiz isn't still hitting well over .300.

    Right now, you just sound desperate to be right,..about anyrthing.

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to ms_obstinate's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    shaughnessy should apologize for even suggesting that Ortiz was still on steroids.  Guys on roids don't go 0 for 5 for the night or 2 for 13 on a home stand.

     




    Get back to me when Ortiz isn't still hitting well over .300.

     

    Right now, you just sound desperate to be right,..about anyrthing.

     




    Ironically he's always Mr Wrong.

     




    Yup.

    He's gone from saying Ortiz can't walk, to complaining that Ortiz can't continue to hit .400.

    Pathetic...

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    did you hear me complain about him going under .400?  Another issue I have with david is he hits in spurts.  Gets a lot of production in a short time then goes quiet when we need him most.  When I posted this during the off season, some disagree.  So here it is and he has having a terrible home stand against a below average team.

    Sorry if the facts hurt but I am not making up the 2 for 13 home stand.  Possibly tonight he will wake up, he always does after one of these posts, so you should be happy to see me posting.

     



    Every single hitter since Ted Williams, that started off the season hitting over .400, had 2-13, or similar stretches.

     

    Why is Ortiz not being able to do it a big deal?

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    did you hear me complain about him going under .400?  Another issue I have with david is he hits in spurts.  Gets a lot of production in a short time then goes quiet when we need him most.  When I posted this during the off season, some disagree.  So here it is and he has having a terrible home stand against a below average team.

    Sorry if the facts hurt but I am not making up the 2 for 13 home stand.  Possibly tonight he will wake up, he always does after one of these posts, so you should be happy to see me posting.




    And I am happy to see you post.

    I'm always happy to see you make a fool of yourself.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Richard1965. Show Richard1965's posts

    Re: PED whispers getting louder around one DAVID the ORTIZ!

    Man I hope DO is not on the juice.  I really like him as a player AND a citizen of Boston.  Please don't be a Yankee and do the juice.  (I realize the Yankees aren't the only team with a history of PED abuse, but I use them as my example because I don't like them Money Mouth

     

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