Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Last nights game is perfect.  Josh was dealing.  He got 2 outs in the 7th.  All of a sudden, two men on base. Francona goes to Rich Hill to face the lefty.  If Hill gives up a hit, you would bash Tito for pulling Beckett.  If Tito left Josh in and he gave up a couple of hits, you would say Tito should have gone to Hill.  There is no way for you to be wrong based on the outcome and the lack of a crystal ball.  That's the point.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SleeStack1. Show SleeStack1's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Just go ahead and suck the fun out of the Tito bashing...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Beckett as an ace belonged in the game still... that's all there is to say.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MikeNagy. Show MikeNagy's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Maybe Tito should get a psychic as a pitching coach:


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Maybe he should manage like a manager rather than going through the motions of what some other moron taught him.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    i got a good idea...let's trade Crawford for Pujols even up !!
    I'm sure the cardinals would jump at the deal.
    Crawford seriously...has no idea of the strike zone. He has no
    clue. He is so desperate now that he will swing at practically
    any ball the pitcher throws. You can bounce one, and Craw
    will swing at it. I really am quite disappointed as I am sure
    most Sox fans are. June rolls around next week, and Crawflail
    is at the Mendoza line, with not even a glimmer of coming out
    of the funk. He has the same weird stance and even Magadan
    has not seemed to be able to inject any idea of how to come
    out of it. The mystery is...how did he hit .300 for Tampa, or
    was that a mirage ???


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]Beckett as an ace belonged in the game still... that's all there is to say.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    That's not the point and you know it.  That is your opinion and Beckett felt that way, too.  The point is that, EITHER WAY, bashers like you will bash.  There are probably 10 bashers who felt that Beckett should have been removed but are silent because it worked out.  I submit that YOU would be saying Beckett should have been removed if he was left in and gave up the lead.  We may never know will we?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]Last nights game is perfect.  Josh was dealing.  He got 2 outs in the 7th.  All of a sudden, two men on base. Francona goes to Rich Hill to face the lefty.  If Hill gives up a hit, you would bash Tito for pulling Beckett.  If Tito left Josh in and he gave up a couple of hits, you would say Tito should have gone to Hill.  There is no way for you to be wrong based on the outcome and the lack of a crystal ball.  That's the point.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    It worked out......this time.
    I've never been a strong proponent of pulling the starter unless he's just imploding. It was Beckett's game to win or lose and to put the ball in the hand of a guy who has 11 innings total since 2009 is extremely risky IMO.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    jim don't pretend you know me when you obviously do not.  I posted last week that though it worked out in New York I preferred Beckett (only went 6) to pitch until the 8th...and the Sox won that game but I still said what I said. I have said time and time again starters who are pitching well and have a history as a very good pitcher need to be able to complete 7 innings (EVEN IF THEY BLOW THE GAME THEN).

    Your wrong.... I also have said that Grady was correct in sending Pedro out in the 8th in NYC 2003, but that he should have had the pen ready once the tying run reached the plate.... how many BASHERS have you heard say that?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Actually jim I can see you doing a sort of playing the reverse positive.  You were probably upset when they pulled Beckett but when Tito did and it all worked out you were like "well my man Tito knows his stuff,"...  and had the relief blown it you would have simply fallen back on other past moves that did work out.... 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Tito probably had statistics available to him at the moment that we didn't have and also the advice of his pitching coach. Beckett didn't have his curve ball going for him last night and got out of several jams with Tek throwing out runners. Many factors to consider and why do so many fans drinking a beer think that they had considered all of them.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]Actually jim I can see you doing a sort of playing the reverse positive.  You were probably upset when they pulled Beckett but when Tito did and it all worked out you were like "well my man Tito knows his stuff,"...  and had the relief blown it you would have simply fallen back on other past moves that did work out.... 
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Don't pretend to know when you don't know.  The difference between me and many others is that I know intellectually that the decision-makers know more than I do.  They have the experience, the numbers, other colleagues, and intimate knowledge of the players that I do not have sitting in my home.  So when Beckett got pulled, it did not surprise me as they probably had Hill pegged to get out the lefty in a particular spot.  Just like Tito knows less than me about running an emergency department, I know less than Tito about managing a baseball team. So no, I was not mad when Beckett got pulled. Just remember, no matter what you do in life, the Sox brass knows more than you, too. And that's the case whether a particular move works out or not.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]jim don't pretend you know me when you obviously do not.  I posted last week that though it worked out in New York I preferred Beckett (only went 6) to pitch until the 8th...and the Sox won that game but I still said what I said. I have said time and time again starters who are pitching well and have a history as a very good pitcher need to be able to complete 7 innings (EVEN IF THEY BLOW THE GAME THEN). Your wrong.... I also have said that Grady was correct in sending Pedro out in the 8th in NYC 2003, but that he should have had the pen ready once the tying run reached the plate.... how many BASHERS have you heard say that?
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Again, you miss the point.  It is not specifically what YOU believe, it is that bashers would bash either way and switch the bashing based on any outcome.  If you don't fit that bill you should be proud of yourself...i guess.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    "Beckett as an ace belonged in the game still... that's all there is to say."

    "I've never been a strong proponent of pulling the starter unless he's just imploding."


    Lots of pitches, eighth inning. Beckett is 31 we have him 'til he's 34, he sucked all last year because of injury. Let's not run him out til the eight every night this year so fans can have every win be placed on his shoulders please.

    Modern day baseball has an importance placed on the bullpen for a reason, I'm happy Francona not only took him out last night, but put in Rich Hill, a guy who's been dealing, we need to see if Hill can handle pressurized situations, and Beckett was on a high pitch count, late in the game, looked like he was slowing anyway.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Law once admitted that strategy of "Heads I win, tails you lose" and we all know that Burrito's favorite posters have been Law, Softlaw, and Bosox1941. Like SleeStack said in the second post on this thread "Jim, you are taking all of the fun out of bashing Tito". The two of them come here for the entertainment of the intentional bashing game. With Law gone, Burrito had to start a thread a few days ago that mirrored the "Fire Theo" Law era. Anything to stir the pot for his personal entertainment.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]Law once admitted that strategy of "Heads I win, tails you lose" and we all know that Burrito's favorite posters have been Law, Softlaw, and Bosox1941. Like SleeStack said in the second post on this thread "Jim, you are taking all of the fun out of bashing Tito". The two of them come here for the entertainment of the intentional bashing game. With Law gone, Burrito had to start a thread a few days ago that mirrored the "Fire Theo" Law era. Anything to stir the pot for his personal entertainment.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]

    Where did Law go? We battled for a year straight!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]"Beckett as an ace belonged in the game still... that's all there is to say." "I've never been a strong proponent of pulling the starter unless he's just imploding." Lots of pitches, eighth inning. Beckett is 31 we have him 'til he's 34, he sucked all last year because of injury. Let's not run him out til the eight every night this year so fans can have every win be placed on his shoulders please. Modern day baseball has an importance placed on the bullpen for a reason, I'm happy Francona not only took him out last night, but put in Rich Hill, a guy who's been dealing, we need to see if Hill can handle pressurized situations, and Beckett was on a high pitch count, late in the game, looked like he was slowing anyway.
    Posted by NUSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    111 pitches is hardly a lot of pitches, unless you are one of the new school guys who think that 100 pitches is a milestone not to be messed with.
    These guys should be able to handle 130 to 140 pitches on 5 days rest, yet because of big money and a mentality that arms are made of glass, rarely will we see taht.
    The days of the CG are well behind us.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Sports columnists and forum posters whose medical knowledge extends to their ability to Google are advised to proceed cautiously when raising questions about the competence of people recognized among the best in their profession, as team doctor Thomas Gill and his staff are.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    When a pitcher is over 100 I think he should be watched, personally I didn't think Beckett was "dealing" in the the inning like he was in the rest of the game, but everyone watches differently.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd : 111 pitches is hardly a lot of pitches, unless you are one of the new school guys who think that 100 pitches is a milestone not to be messed with. These guys should be able to handle 130 to 140 pitches on 5 days rest, yet because of big money and a mentality that arms are made of glass, rarely will we see taht. The days of the CG are well behind us.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Pitches are measured in more than just the number.  111 pitches when the game is lopsided is alot different than having to work in a close game...like last night.  The guy gave you a nice effort, put the team in position to win, and will be ready in 5 days.  If you can't go to your pen there, you are not winning it all anyway.  You better find out what you have now.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Great Post, and perfect example of how tito bashers think.

    Try putting blame on the players when they don't perform, not tito.

    Tito is what he is, i decent game manager, but the perfect manager for this team.  He gets the team to play through adversity and is a calming presence.  A team of superstars in a psyco fan city like boston needs a manager like tito.

    There could be a better manager out there definitely, but there are many many worse ones.

    If the tito bashers have seen the other managers this team has had they would understand this. 

    I personally think joe maddon is one of the greatest managers, but tito is plenty good enough to win the WS, as he has 2 times and the team battled back in both playoffs.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    Peter Abraham wrote about game 1, Monday night, that, while taking Buchholz out because of the 330 pitches in three consecutive games rule made sense, it didn't make sense to pitch to Bautista, who was very hot.  Better to pitch to the next guy, Choo, and maybe bring in Hill to do that.  That said, the score was already tied 2-2, thanks to Bard, so there was not guarantee the Sox would have prevailed. 

    The basic argument of the OP is sound.  georom, burritoT, and a few others rely entirely on hindsight to claim that Francona should or should not have used a particular reliever.  One of their favorite arguments is that a manager should never worry about overusing a starter's arm and that 130 or so pitches per game should be the norm for Sox starters.  And, when it's time for a reliever, that usually want Bard or Papelbon, no one else will do.  And every game in May is crucial and must be won at all costs because a win is a win is a win. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd : It worked out......this time. I've never been a strong proponent of pulling the starter unless he's just imploding. It was Beckett's game to win or lose and to put the ball in the hand of a guy who has 11 innings total since 2009 is extremely risky IMO.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]
    Putting the ball in the hand of a guy who hasn't given up a run in a Sox uniform. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from the-yazzer. Show the-yazzer's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    In Response to Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd:
    [QUOTE]Law once admitted that strategy of "Heads I win, tails you lose" and we all know that Burrito's favorite posters have been Law, Softlaw, and Bosox1941. Like SleeStack said in the second post on this thread "Jim, you are taking all of the fun out of bashing Tito". The two of them come here for the entertainment of the intentional bashing game. With Law gone, Burrito had to start a thread a few days ago that mirrored the "Fire Theo" Law era. Anything to stir the pot for his personal entertainment.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]


    well, yourecho, one thing you'll never be is entertaining.
    and, in support of burrito, a team's ACE should be averageing more than just a little over 6 innings per game after 10 starts.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Perfect Example of the 20/20 Hindsight Crowd

    I never jump on the pitching-change bashing threads.  But, for the record:  I thought Josh should have stayed in the game last night.  Its his game to win right there.  And he was still dealing.  But, it was a judgement call and I can understand why he made it.  Don't agrree.  But I understand.  And that is how I generally perceive all of the Francona decisions I personally disagree with:  don't agree, but i understand.  
     
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