Perhaps something can be gleaned from history

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    Perhaps something can be gleaned from history

    For those who are advocates of ‘blowing-up’ this version of the team, as well as for those who say it would be a disaster, please allow me to suggest a review of Red Sox history.

    1965-1966 departure and a fond adieu to celebrated members of the  Sox team: Frank Malzone, Eddie Bressoud, Bill Monboquette, Earl Wilson, Dick Radatz, Felix Mantilla, Chuck Schilling, Lee Thomas, Gary Geiger, Arnold Early to name but a few. Followed by the wringing of hands and wailing at the gates by the 'fickle' faithful for the break-up and discarding of those who had been the backbone of the team.

    April 12, 1967, the 8,324 truly faithful fans in attendance greeted these new members of the restructured team (as memory serves me), manager Dick Williams, along with Gary Waslewski, Billy Rohr, Don McMahon, Gary Bell, Dan Osinski, Jose Santiago, Lee Stange, John Wyatt, Ken Brett, Galen Cisco, Sparky Lyle, George Thomas, Mike Andrews, Joe Foy, Tony Horton, Jerry Adair, Eddie Kasko, George Scott, Don Demeter, Reggie Smith, and Jose Tartabul.

    Following a 1966, 72-90, season putting them in 9th place in the American League with the only solace being that the Yankees, 70-89, finished in 10th place, Red Sox Nation had little to give them hope or optimism. There were certainly minimal expectations, but they were still the Red Sox and the changes in personnel brought a renewed wave of enthusiasm.

    Flash forward to October 1, 1967, absolute bedlam in the streets of Boston, particularly Kenmore Square (I was there) following the final out of the Tigers/Angels game on the West Coast. The unheralded 1967 re-structured Red Sox with a new manager had gone from 9th place to 1st place clinching the American League pennant on the final day of the season and were headed for the World Series.

    Sometimes change is called for, and impossible dreams do come true. That time may well be upon us. Please Ben, dump the big contract prima-donnas, bring up the young guys, and even if the team falters a bit, it will still give us loyal fans something to cheer for.

     
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    Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history

       I was at that game, as my mother, a huge RS fan, would let me skip school and attend opening day, I believe we did it 10 straight years. To show how times have changed we would walk up to the ticket window, and get Box seats before the game.
     
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    Wasn't the 1965 team 62-100 and the farm system was ripe with talent ready to come up. There were no overpriced players on the 1965 team just old ones. In those days in you had a bad hand ( poker), you could easily afford to replace your hand with a new one. The 1967 team was called the miracle Red Sox since the odds of winning in Las Vegas were 100-1. The farm team callups blossomed all at once and that was very fortunate.
     
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    In Response to Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]For those who are advocates of ‘blowing-up’ this version of the team, as well as for those who say it would be a disaster, please allow me to suggest a review of Red Sox history. 1965-1966 departure and a fond adieu to celebrated members of the  Sox team: Frank Malzone, Eddie Bressoud, Bill Monboquette, Earl Wilson, Dick Radatz, Felix Mantilla, Chuck Schilling, Lee Thomas, Gary Geiger, Arnold Early to name but a few. Followed by the wringing of hands and wailing at the gates by the 'fickle' faithful for the break-up and discarding of those who had been the backbone of the team. April 12, 1967, the 8,324 truly faithful fans in attendance greeted these new members of the restructured team (as memory serves me), manager Dick Williams, along with Gary Waslewski, Billy Rohr, Don McMahon, Gary Bell, Dan Osinski, Jose Santiago, Lee Stange, John Wyatt, Ken Brett, Galen Cisco, Sparky Lyle, George Thomas, Mike Andrews, Joe Foy, Tony Horton, Jerry Adair, Eddie Kasko, George Scott, Don Demeter, Reggie Smith, and Jose Tartabul. Following a 1966, 72-90, season putting them in 9 th place in the American League with the only solace being that the Yankees, 70-89, finished in 10 th place, Red Sox Nation had little to give them hope or optimism. There were certainly minimal expectations, but they were still the Red Sox and the changes in personnel brought a renewed wave of enthusiasm. Flash forward to October 1, 1967, absolute bedlam in the streets of Boston, particularly Kenmore Square (I was there) following the final out of the Tigers/Angels game on the West Coast. The unheralded 1967 re-structured Red Sox with a new manager had gone from 9 th place to 1 st place clinching the American League pennant on the final day of the season and were headed for the World Series. Sometimes change is called for, and impossible dreams do come true. That time may well be upon us. Please Ben, dump the big contract prima-donnas, bring up the young guys, and even if the team falters a bit, it will still give us loyal fans something to cheer for.
    Posted by dustcover[/QUOTE]

    its like the red sox these days are too big to fail...or least admit to it...sad....excellent post...change brings hope - it always has, always will...
     
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    In Response to Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]   I was at that game, as my mother, a huge RS fan, would let me skip school and attend opening day, I believe we did it 10 straight years. To show how times have changed we would walk up to the ticket window, and get Box seats before the game.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    And bleacher seats were 50 cents.  But on that day, a friend of mine who was a part-time bartender at a local pub which George Scott frequented, got us complimentary tickets a few rows behind the Sox dugout, compliments of the Boomer.  And to this day, I remember how cold it was that day; from the 3rd inning on, my feet were freezing.
     
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    and another thing...isnt salty basically themodern version of George scott?  whats wrong with that?  oh yea, metrics nonsense dictates we hate him
     
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    In 1965, he was the Eastern League triple crown winner, leading the league in home runs, RBIs, and batting average. Scott was a three-time All-Star in the American League in 1966, 1975 and 1977, starting the 1966 Mid-Summer Classic and homering in 1977. Scott hit over 20 home runs six times in his career, tying Reggie Jackson for the American League lead in 1975 with a career-high 36 and pacing the league in RBI that same season with 109. Known for his glovework at first base, Scott was awarded the Gold Glove Award for fielding excellence in the American League during eight seasons (1967–68 and 1971–1976).

    In a 14-season career, Scott posted a .268 batting average with 271 home runs (which he called "taters") and 1051 RBI in 2034 games. His nickname was 'Boomer' and he called his glove "black beauty." George was well known for having a good sense of humor. He wore a necklace which he once identified to a reporter as being composed of "the second baseman's teeth". To complement his unique attire, George also was known for wearing a batting helmet while fielding at first base due to an experience he had with a fan throwing hard objects at him once during a road game.

     
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    In Response to Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]For those who are advocates of ‘blowing-up’ this version of the team, as well as for those who say it would be a disaster, please allow me to suggest a review of Red Sox history. 1965-1966 departure and a fond adieu to celebrated members of the  Sox team: Frank Malzone, Eddie Bressoud, Bill Monboquette, Earl Wilson, Dick Radatz, Felix Mantilla, Chuck Schilling, Lee Thomas, Gary Geiger, Arnold Early to name but a few. Followed by the wringing of hands and wailing at the gates by the 'fickle' faithful for the break-up and discarding of those who had been the backbone of the team. April 12, 1967, the 8,324 truly faithful fans in attendance greeted these new members of the restructured team (as memory serves me), manager Dick Williams, along with Gary Waslewski, Billy Rohr, Don McMahon, Gary Bell, Dan Osinski, Jose Santiago, Lee Stange, John Wyatt, Ken Brett, Galen Cisco, Sparky Lyle, George Thomas, Mike Andrews, Joe Foy, Tony Horton, Jerry Adair, Eddie Kasko, George Scott, Don Demeter, Reggie Smith, and Jose Tartabul. Following a 1966, 72-90, season putting them in 9 th place in the American League with the only solace being that the Yankees, 70-89, finished in 10 th place, Red Sox Nation had little to give them hope or optimism. There were certainly minimal expectations, but they were still the Red Sox and the changes in personnel brought a renewed wave of enthusiasm. Flash forward to October 1, 1967, absolute bedlam in the streets of Boston, particularly Kenmore Square (I was there) following the final out of the Tigers/Angels game on the West Coast. The unheralded 1967 re-structured Red Sox with a new manager had gone from 9 th place to 1 st place clinching the American League pennant on the final day of the season and were headed for the World Series. Sometimes change is called for, and impossible dreams do come true. That time may well be upon us. Please Ben, dump the big contract prima-donnas, bring up the young guys, and even if the team falters a bit, it will still give us loyal fans something to cheer for.
    Posted by dustcover[/QUOTE]
    All players stated above I believe played for Sox that season. Some like Rohr didn't hang around too long, and others, Bell, were mid-season pick-ups. Just an aside their were 16 pitchers winning at least one game, and had 12 different starters. This was a lot in the day of 8 and 9 man pitching staffs.
     
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    In Response to Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]In 1965, he was the Eastern League triple crown winner, leading the league in home runs, RBIs, and batting average. Scott was a three-time All-Star in the American League in 1966, 1975 and 1977, starting the 1966 Mid-Summer Classic and homering in 1977. Scott hit over 20 home runs six times in his career, tying Reggie Jackson for the American League lead in 1975 with a career-high 36 and pacing the league in RBI that same season with 109. Known for his glovework at first base, Scott was awarded the Gold Glove Award for fielding excellence in the American League during eight seasons (1967–68 and 1971–1976). In a 14-season career, Scott posted a .268 batting average with 271 home runs (which he called "taters") and 1051 RBI in 2034 games . His nickname was 'Boomer' and he called his glove "black beauty." George was well known for having a good sense of humor. He wore a necklace which he once identified to a reporter as being composed of "the second baseman's teeth". To complement his unique attire, George also was known for wearing a batting helmet while fielding at first base due to an experience he had with a fan throwing hard objects at him once during a road game.
    Posted by Clamshack[/QUOTE]

    wow..impressive stats - i was kind of young then....i sort of recall him at the end of his career when he either struck out or homered....
     
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    In Response to Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]In 1965, he was the Eastern League triple crown winner, leading the league in home runs, RBIs, and batting average. Scott was a three-time All-Star in the American League in 1966, 1975 and 1977, starting the 1966 Mid-Summer Classic and homering in 1977. Scott hit over 20 home runs six times in his career, tying Reggie Jackson for the American League lead in 1975 with a career-high 36 and pacing the league in RBI that same season with 109. Known for his glovework at first base, Scott was awarded the Gold Glove Award for fielding excellence in the American League during eight seasons (1967–68 and 1971–1976). In a 14-season career, Scott posted a .268 batting average with 271 home runs (which he called "taters") and 1051 RBI in 2034 games . His nickname was 'Boomer' and he called his glove "black beauty." George was well known for having a good sense of humor. He wore a necklace which he once identified to a reporter as being composed of "the second baseman's teeth". To complement his unique attire, George also was known for wearing a batting helmet while fielding at first base due to an experience he had with a fan throwing hard objects at him once during a road game.
    Posted by Clamshack[/QUOTE]

    Dick Williams affectionally called him a ' cement head ', and he had an abnormally high voice, but that man could field his position.
     
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     The farm team callups blossomed all at once and that was very fortunate.
    Posted by Clamshack[/QUOTE]

    Your recollections are very accurate, but for minor league callups to blossom they must first be given the opportunity.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history : Dick Williams affectionally called him a ' cement head ', and he had an abnormally high voice, but that man could field his position.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    if i remember, he also had a heavy southern dialect/slang thing going on and was hard to understand....like grady little...
     
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    In response to "Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history": [QUOTE]   I was at that game, as my mother, a huge RS fan, would let me skip school and attend opening day, I believe we did it 10 straight years. To show how times have changed we would walk up to the ticket window, and get Box seats before the game. Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE] Sounds like your mother was one of those rare and special parents who recognize that small favors lead to lifetime memories.
     
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    i like papi but his 15 mil a yr is better spent elsewhere...ells will walk but let him play his heart out for free agency and ride that....but otherwise i agree with trott
     
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    [QUOTE]and another thing...isnt salty basically themodern version of George scott?  whats wrong with that?  oh yea, metrics nonsense dictates we hate him
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    boom hates him, that's clear.
     
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    im thinking take his 15 mil, and dice's 10 mil, and make a play for felix....we have to get rid of some prospects but money talks and king felix would be ok wiht that type of cash...money better spent imho...rather have lava pt catcher/dh than papi at this point....we need to rebuild, not hang on to glory days
     
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    trade them what seattle wants...prbably our top 2 prospects and a starter...
     
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    [QUOTE]Sometimes change is called for, and impossible dreams do come true. That time may well be upon us. Please Ben, dump the big contract prima-donnas, bring up the young guys, and even if the team falters a bit, it will still give us loyal fans something to cheer for. Agreed, change is called for because the status quo hasn't worked since 2007. I don't like the font color. You must be more specific on "dump the big contract prima donnas". Ellsbrick is part of the near 30 million a year for Ellsford. Since Crawford won't net Type A compensation and has a contract and current trade value that will just net a big bill, Ellsbrick is one of the big contract prima donnas that needs to go. Ditto for Beckett, who will result in a team paying most of his contract and sending some young farm talent. Beckett has high miles and a bad attitude. Lester doesn't have a contract like Beckett, he's younger, and his recent form means this isn't the time to thinkg about dumping him. Aviles isn't an everyday SS and never has been. His trade value, because of service time, is decent if he's in a package. Aviles is worth more traded than in a UIF'er mode. Aviles needs to go. Ortiz should retire with the Red Sox. He is the only Red Sox player who produces every single year. He is the face of the winning Red Sox brand of a half a decade ago, and he is not part of the problem with winning games in recent years. AGon shows up for work almost every single game. He had a great year in 2011, but didn't get any credit for it. He's having a down year with a .292 BA and .332 OBP and.430 SLG but was just named AL player of the week. His trade value in the contending big market supply and demand scale would not be good. The Red Sox should put a package together and get J. Upton to go in between AGon and Ortz and make a run for the playoffs. 
    Posted by TrotterNixon[/QUOTE]I agree with everything except the part about going after Upton. The Red Sox don't need more outfielders. The minor league system is loaded with outfielders who can play in the big leagues and I don't think Upton is that good. Linares could come up right now and play anywhere in the outfield and probably hit around .300 with good power. I also think JBJ could make the jump from Portland and play, but I don't think the Sox should play that guy anywhere but CF, so unless Ellsbury is moved Bradley probably stays in the minors. Crawford's not going anywhere, at least until Bogaerts is ready. Ross would get you good value in a deal as would Aviles. The Sox also have some relievers thast could be valuable in a deal in Melancon, Albers, Padilla, Mortenson and Atchison. I wouldn't move Lester, Buchholz, Doubront, Morales, Aceves, Adrian, Papi, Pedroia or Middlebrooks, but If I were Ben I'd be actively looking to move anyone else. But I'd be looking to bring in top flight pitching prospects, because the one thing the Red Sox lack IMHO is top flight starting pitching. So if the Red Sox really do decide to be sellers at the deadline they have a number of packages they could put together. Most of them heavier on outfield talent than any other position. For instance I think a package of Ellsbury, Ross, Aviles and Padilla could bring back something pretty good. But if Ben C. is asleep at the wheel this week his free pass from me is over.
     
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    [QUOTE]im thinking take his 15 mil, and dice's 10 mil, and make a play for felix....we have to get rid of some prospects but money talks and king felix would be ok wiht that type of cash. ..money better spent imho ...rather have lava pt catcher/dh than papi at this point ....we need to rebuild, not hang on to glory days The problem is that Felix costs 18.5 million pro-rated this year, and 19.5 million for next year and 20 million for the year after that. For this year, who, specifically are you going to trade to get Felix? Since you appear to be talking about this winter, who are you going to trade to win the winter Felix trade sweepstakes? Prospects isn't going to do it. Why not offer the Mariners Beckett and Ellsbury , right now, for Felix. Beckett is on the books for 15.75M this year, Ellsbury at 8.05M this year.  2012 trade deadline trade: Mariners get Beckett 15.75M  2012 x .4122 pro-rata =  6.49M Mariners get Ellsbury 8.05M 2012 x .4122 pro-rata = 3.32M Mariners get Type A compensation when they offer Ellsbury the CBA minimum required amount Mariners net buget increase 2.18M Red Sox get Felix for 18.5M 2012 x .4122 pro-rata = 7.63M Red Sox net budget decrease 2.18M  2013 Mariners pay Beckett 15.75M and Ellsbury ~ 10M = 25.75M 2013 Mariners status quo pay Felix 19.5M  2013 Mariners net budget increase 6.25M  2013 Red Sox pay Felix 19.5M 2013 Red Sox net budget decrease 6.25M 2014 Mariners pay Beckett 15.75M plus Type A compensation for Ellsbury  2014 Mariners status quo pay Felix 20M 2014 Mariners net budget decrease 4.25M 2014 Red Sox pay Felix 20M 2014 Red Sox net budget decrease 6.25M+ (Based on Ellsbury 10M 2014 and Bradley, Jr. 2014 costs)  Total Mariners Net budget change = +4.18 Total Net Red Sox budget change = - 14.68M Note: Red Sox get Type A compensation for Felix if they elect not to pay for his FA years
    Posted by TrotterNixon[/QUOTE]Beckett and Ellsbury aren't going to bring back the King, not this year. Maybe the prospects you could get back for Beckett, Ellsbury, Ross, Padilla, Avies and Ross would but this is Ben's first trading deadline in the big chair and it would take some astute trading to get that done. We'll see.
     
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    Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history

    In Response to Re: Perhaps something can be gleaned from history:
    [QUOTE]The minor league system is loaded with outfielders who can play in the big leagues No, the 40 man roster and minor leagues have nothing that compares with what J. Upton has proven he can do at the tender of age 24. The Red Sox have nothing but lefty guys and B and C and D grade RH OF'ers.
    Posted by TrotterNixon[/QUOTE]So who will it be next year? It was Matt Kemp last year. What the Red Sox lack is starting pitching, and it seems to me we've proven to ourselves that the FA market isn't the place to go after starting pitching.
     
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