phillies / madson

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from KRomine. Show KRomine's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    After hearing that news, Pap must be sporting a serious "woody" right now!

    Cha      Ching!!! 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Prediction; Paplbon-3/45. 4 th year kicks in based on performance Bell-3/42. Krod-2/14
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Guess Papelbon could be back in the picture after a possible decline by the Phillies's executive/CEO staffs.

    • A source says it's "highly unlikely" a Madson-Phillies deal gets done today, tweetsESPN's Jayson Stark.
    • This morning, Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com tweeted, "Source close to Madson said Tuesday night there was no deal and talks were ongoing. Still believe Papelbon in picture."  Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports says sources indicated this morning that the Phillies are reconsidering their options.
    • SI's Jon Heyman tweeted early this morning that Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. agreed to a four-year, $44MM deal with Madson, but told agent Scott Boras he'd need the approval of team CEO David Montgomery, which still has not been given.  Heyman saysMadson signed off on the deal, but the SI writer doesn't know if the contract is in jeopardy.  He adds that the Phillies had talks with Jonathan Papelbon as recently as Monday.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    jacky Pap has been a very durable guy, a team guy, but his goal is to be the highest paid closer--sorry I hope the Sox don't give it to him. Perhaps I will regret that statement but I think Aceves has the makeup to be as good a closer as Pap. In addition I think before Bard ran out of gas in Sept. if you polled the starting pitchers I have a feeling most would have wanted Bard to close their games.
    Posted by MadMc44


    I still believe that it will be a mistake if the Red Sox don't resign Papelbon.   They need more pitching depth next season, not less.  Not sure who they would sign to replace him if Bard or Aceves prove not to be very good in this role. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    The crazy thing is that the Phillies would lose two draft picks by signing Ryan Madson but only one draft pick by signing Jonathan Papelbon.

    If Madson signs elsewhere after an offer of arbitration, the Phillies collect the signing team's top pick* plus a sandwich pick. The Phillies "lose" those prospective picks if Madson re-signs.

    Philadelphia would surrender only its No. 31 pick** if the Phillies sign Jonathan Papelbon.

    * the compensatory picks would be a first-round pick if the signing team had one of the 15 best records in 2011 or a second-round pick if the team had one of the 15 worst records in 2011

    ** Toronto gets two first-round picks in 2012 after failing to sign its first-round pick in 2011
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Phil's showed their hand. They will pay a closer 11 million, and got cold feet. Sox will offer more to Paplbon and no other team will bid.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    perhaps our biggest disagreement BT is all thing considered, including the way the yr ended, and the fact that you have 25 mill worth of pitching out for the season   is that I think the sox will go over the lux tax this yr and you don't
    Posted by pinstripezac


    Zac,

    Not sure I disagreed...but since you brought it up. It wouldn't surprise me if Henry ok'd a one time increase in the payroll...Given the circumstances and probably more so the needs of 2012. I also think that Luccino will advocate spending up to the 200M threshold...I just can't assume that, that's the case given Henry's public statement in years past that the goal is to stay under the threshold...With the caviat of "unless they need to add money to bolster the teams playoff chances... 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Why do people think Aceves can Close....based on what,,,,closing is different animal. ....even Bard who has closed a few games would be a crap shoot at closer. Papelbon is a proven closer with Postseason experience. I agree the Madsen contract was nuts, but if that means paps has to get 14mm per, I think you have to pay it. In todays game, you can have great starters but they still arent completing games, so that 8-9 combination is still crucial.....why would you give up what you had, and use the moeny on starters whose leads will be blown by the pen. This team can afford to spend even a little more than they did last year which gives them the room to resign Paps....and an A level  starter(Buerhle would be my choice). That may mean you need to stick with the RF combination you have and move Youk to DH and add a complimentary piece, but this team will still score alot of runs.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    Why do people think Aceves can Close....based on what,,,,closing is different animal. ....even Bard who has closed a few games would be a crap shoot at closer. Papelbon is a proven closer with Postseason experience. I agree the Madsen contract was nuts, but if that means paps has to get 14mm per, I think you have to pay it. In todays game, you can have great starters but they still arent completing games, so that 8-9 combination is still crucial.....why would you give up what you had, and use the moeny on starters whose leads will be blown by the pen. This team can afford to spend even a little more than they did last year which gives them the room to resign Paps....and an A level  starter(Buerhle would be my choice). That may mean you need to stick with the RF combination you have and move Youk to DH and add a complimentary piece, but this team will still score alot of runs.
    Posted by tomnev


    tom,
    I don't think the argument is whether or not Papelbon is worth 14M. Rather are we a better team with or without him...that's an argument that can't be settled in foresight. Becasue we have to first see if Bard can indeed step up and take on the closer role. The most pressing need for 2012 is the aquisition of 2 starters replace Lackey and Matsuska and if the Sox have the means and the allowable budgeted funds then resigning Papelbon is a no brainer..I will aslo add that it was inujry and lack of starting pitching depth that ultimately undid both the Sox and the Braves. One makes the other better, but if you can't get 1000 innings out of your top 6 starters...it a take toll on the pen over the long haul which is exactly what happened in Atlanta and Boston where the pen imploded down the stretch from overwork...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Yeah, that sets the market pretty high for Paps.  I think he and Madson are the same age, so now Paps will certainly be looking for that 4th year.  Bell is 34 years old, so he might not get the same length as the other 2.

    Looking like Paps could get in the 4/55-60 range.  That is a risky contract.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    TomNev I may be the one that introduced the idea of Aceves closing and I stand by that claim.
    The guy has started, he's done long and short relief. His greatest gifts are his arm and his brashness. He can laugh at himself when things are crumbling around him. He could pitch in 80 to 90 games if he had to--maybe more.
    There aren't many guys like Aceves, he's not a showboat on the mound but he has that gutty inside similar to Pedroia-he knows he can get the best batter out.
    The last series of 2011 in Baltimore Pap said he loves moments like this when the season or playoffs are on the line. The big moment-man when you say that you better come through.
    To me paying a guy $14 M a year and we haven't made the playoffs in a couple of years and he hasn't done it in the clutch--I say look for someone else. 
    I'm not saying I could do it--I know I couldn't but I believe Aceves can!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : I still believe that it will be a mistake if the Red Sox don't resign Papelbon.   They need more pitching depth next season, not less.  Not sure who they would sign to replace him if Bard or Aceves prove not to be very good in this role. 
    Posted by susan250


    I think the plan has always been that Bard would transition into the closer role, which is why the Red Sox went the rather costly arbitration route with Paps the past few years.  However, with the September Bard had last year, I'm guessing the Red Sox now don't feel so sure about Bard as closer. 

    At this point Papelbon will at least be made an offer but his price tag is looking like 50+ million over 4 years with the Madson contract being what it might be. 

    However it shakes out, the Red Sox are not in good position.  They will either over pay for Papelbon and pray he makes it through 2015 or they have a huge hole to fill in the BP. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    I have a feeling this Madson offer is going to come off the table and they will pay Pap what he's asking. The amounts are marginally different --Philly management knows Pap has won the big games in the past--to risk the decision on a couple of Mill between the best guy available and their own guy--Pap will be a Philly. That will be good for the Phils; it wouldn't surprise me if Doc and Lee are lobbying for Pap.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : I think the plan has always been that Bard would transition into the closer role, which is why the Red Sox went the rather costly arbitration route with Paps the past few years.  However, with the September Bard had last year, I'm guessing the Red Sox now don't feel so sure about Bard as closer.  At this point Papelbon will at least be made an offer but his price tag is looking like 50+ million over 4 years with the Madson contract being what it might be.  However it shakes out, the Red Sox are not in good position.  They will either over pay for Papelbon and pray he makes it through 2015 or they have a huge hole to fill in the BP. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Not sure that they'll have a huge hole. The reality is that they have until the middle of June before they need to answer the Bard question and then if he's not the answer they can always look at adding a closer in July...The reality is that all they have to do to replace Papelbon (65 IP) is to add another arm to the pen, preferable one that has the moixy and the stuff to take the ball in high leverage situations...the more pressing need is the current void in the rotation and the 66 starts and 360 IP...If they can accomplish both all the better...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    The crazy thing is that the Phillies would lose two draft picks by signing Ryan Madson but only one draft pick by signing Jonathan Papelbon. If Madson signs elsewhere after an offer of arbitration, the Phillies collect the signing team's top pick* plus a sandwich pick. The Phillies "lose" those prospective picks if Madson re-signs. Philadelphia would surrender only its No. 31 pick** if the Phillies sign Jonathan Papelbon. * the compensatory picks would be a first-round pick if the signing team had one of the 15 best records in 2011 or a second-round pick if the team had one of the 15 worst records in 2011 ** Toronto gets two first-round picks in 2012 after failing to sign its first-round pick in 2011
    Posted by hill55
    That depends on who signs Madsen of course. Asssuming the CBA remains unchanged if a team that finished outside of the top 15 signs Madsen they Phils only get the sandwich pick, while they surrender their 1st rounder to Boston if they sign Papelbon or to the old team of any Type A FA closer who they do sign.

    It is weird quirk that they can actually move up in the draft if a top 15 team signs Madsen so I get the point but if a player like the Twins or Marlins emerged that does negate that.   
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : Not sure that they'll have a huge hole. The reality is that they have until the middle of June before they need to answer the Bard question and then if he's not the answer they can always look at adding a closer in July...The reality is that all they have to do to replace Papelbon (65 IP) is to add another arm to the pen, preferable one that has the moixy and the stuff to take the ball in high leverage situations...the more pressing need is the current void in the rotation and the 66 starts and 360 IP...If they can accomplish both all the better...
    Posted by Beantowne


    If Papelbon goes then Bard moves to Closer, there is still a huge hole b/c who is the 8th inning guy?  If Aceves moves to the rotation that leave the Bullpen very thin. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    I think getting the starting rotation in order with 5 solid guys, not 20 game winners, is what will make a successful season for the Sox.  They have the hitting and it should only get better even if nobody is added except the RF replacement.  The BP should be easier to shore up via FA or trades without giving up too much of the Sox future.  And all that should be able to be done without exceeding (hopefully) that luxury tax threshold that LL refuses to cross.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from xxxcrwn. Show xxxcrwn's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    "But if he gets something that he really wants and there's a deadline on it he can take it." -Ben Cherington on Papelbon.

    Reads like he doesn't want him back at what Papelbon wants to get paid.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    the sox are going to need jenks to rise, phoenix like, from the ashes and turn the clock back a few years.....otherwise its bard or aceves closing and that just creates another hole elsewhere. cant see ben paying up big for bell or pap at that price.
    Posted by Guvnor


    More like The Phoenix Foundation and MacGyver if you ask me. At least that's what it'd take to get that kind of a rise out of Jenks at this stage. Better start making offers to Paplebon.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    Madsen deal  4/44  is not a done deal - he is represented by Boras and Phils brass has not approved the years and $$$

    hat said the market  for Papelbon has  to be at $15 -!16 Million..   now how many years ?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : If Papelbon goes then Bard moves to Closer, there is still a huge hole b/c who is the 8th inning guy?  If Aceves moves to the rotation that leave the Bullpen very thin. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    There's plenty of relievers on the market that they could sign to take on Bard's role (Broxton?). They also have Jenks, who if healthy could also be in the mix along with Morales, Albers, Aceves and the kid they got from the M's in the Bedard deal Field's is a former closer and a top 10 pick who I think will be given a very long look this spring...While I appreciate the value of having a closer with Papelbon's petigree in the big picture were talking about replacing 65 innings...Frankly what is comes down too with Papelbon IMHO and whether they make him a market value offer, depends on the moneys they allocate to the teams 2012 budget.

    Job one for Cherington is to replace the void in the rotation due to the injury's to Lackey and Matsusaka 60 starts and 360 to 400 innings...Which won't come without a cost and failure to do so will ahve a ripple effect on the entire pitching staff. IMHO they have to add at least one guy that has a proven track record for being durable and one that projects to be an effective #4 come post season. Along with two risk reward guys like Freddie Garcia/Colon types that come to spring with the intent to make the club...

    the unanswered question is if they'll stay below 170M in total payroll or will Henry allow them to exceed that number...By all the calculations I've seen the Sox have about 40M to play with to stay below 170M. If they pay Papelbon market value that leaves them with about 25M or 26M to work with? Which is still substantial but lets not forget that they also have a few holes to fill in the lineup too..If they pay Papi market value and or a replacement level bat, my guess is that he's looking for 10M to 12M per at minium...

    That doesn't leave a ton of moneys to add two quality starters to the rotation and and sign players to fill the needs forthe 25 man roster and also pay the increases for the arbitration eligable player currently on the roster...

    In the end it comes down to the value over the life of Papelbons contract weighted against the short term needs and how best to use the moneys to insure success in 2012 and beyond...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    "But if he gets something that he really wants and there's a deadline on it he can take it." -Ben Cherington on Papelbon. Reads like he doesn't want him back at what Papelbon wants to get paid.
    Posted by xxxcrwn


    That is a very disturbing comment from Cherington.  I have posted quite a few times resigning Papelbon should be a top priority for the Red Sox.  If he leaves he will be very difficult to replace. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Guvnor. Show Guvnor's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    the comments above about starting pitching being the priority is absolutely correct.....resources have to be allocated in that direction, and it appears that pap will get more money elsewhere. He will be hard to replace, but the challenge will be to do what the brewers did and unearth another axford.

    the division is going to be even harder next year, jays will improve, yanks of course, rays arent going away with their staff.....so we have desperate need for 2 reliable starters.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from xxxcrwn. Show xxxcrwn's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : That is a very disturbing comment from Cherington.  I have posted quite a few times resigning Papelbon should be a top priority for the Red Sox.  If he leaves he will be very difficult to replace. 
    Posted by susan250


    Papelbon was never an elite closer, though he wanted to be paid like one. He was close to being elite, but he wasn't a 1-2-3 easy inning guy. There's a gap between him an elite closer like Mariano Rivera, & he shouldn't be paid like MR.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: phillies / madson

    In Response to Re: phillies / madson:
    In Response to Re: phillies / madson : Papelbon was never an elite closer, though he wanted to be paid like one. He was close to being elite, but he wasn't a 1-2-3 easy inning guy. There's a gap between him an elite closer like Mariano Rivera, & he shouldn't be paid like MR.
    Posted by xxxcrwn


    I agree with you that he was not in the same class as MO, but he has proven to be durable, consistent and 2nd only to MO in the AL East and also his success translated even better into the playoffs.  He is gone so most Sox posters will declare how great that is for the Sox.  Let's hope they are right.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share