In his new book, before it was banned; unless this is just a fancy lie. However, the fact that I remain suspicious (and probably everybody else) shows the state of the game on this issue.

 

Of course, the populace is punch drunk on the web of lies over the years, from Sosa who couldn't speak English when asked, to a defiant Clemens, Bonds, & Palmiero, a pathetic A-Rod & McGwire, sheepish Ortiz, see if I care Manny, a comical Braun, and so on.

Yah...the game is still dirty. That said a bit of a stronger stance by the player's union (from wet noodle to somewhat wet noodle), along with more drug testing has definitely taken some of the most potent steroids out of the mix - declined home run totals are proof of that. 

But the game is a mess and will be until everyone involved wants to clean it, even so there will be some cheaters ahead of what is detectable.

In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

 

Yah...the game is still dirty. That said a bit of a stronger stance by the player's union (from wet noodle to somewhat wet noodle), along with more drug testing has definitely taken some of the most potent steroids out of the mix - declined home run totals are proof of that. 

But the game is a mess and will be until everyone involved wants to clean it, even so there will be some cheaters ahead of what is detectable.

 

In general, they're not going to fool the public.

 

The game of baseball, and every game/sport will have cheaters til the end of time.

Im at the point to where I could care less and pretty much expect almost every player to be on something...

I posted this on the Pats board. Sub Arod for Ray Lewis and MLB for NFL

Lets relook at the facts. HGH and steroids are miracle drugs that used under doctors supervision can be a huge benefit to the NFL in the recovery and comeback from injury and the usual week to week NFL grind. 

If teams monitored usage safely, and not some underground supplier, players could greatly benefit.

does "deer antler" extract have any adverse effects? Does I t really help? Did Ray Lewis come back from a potential season ending injury because of this extract? If he did, shouldn't the NFL be trying to help the players get healthier faster? 

Prather than ignore the fact, hide it under the rug, or simply ban it, I prefer the NFL to embrace it to help players recover and comeback, as long as there are no adverse effects.

In response to rkarp's comment:

very good point. I really havent looked at it that way, but it does make some sense.

In response to southpaw777's comment:

No sense in boring you with the fact that I have been inhaling steroids for 20 years under doctors supervision to superbly control asthma. Surely professional sports can find ways to use these drugs to improve players health. 

 

In response to rkarp's comment:

I don't know that I agree with "supervised use". At the end of the day the players all are using under doctors supervision...just not a doctor that's sanctioned by the league. Without going in to a prolonged polyanic diatribe (which I'm prone to do)...It's already been established by the medical community that use of anabolic steriods has long term health risk. The greater the use, the greater the risk.

If one think's of the human body as an eco system. Increasing the amount of toxins that are released into the system. Just like the increased CO2 emmisions have on the planets atmoshere. Ulitamately when the balance is out of order the system breaks down and what was the norm becomes the exception and chaos ensues. At some point the planet as it has over the milliniums self corrects and the temperature plummets and the city of Boston will find itself under a couple of hundred feet of ice. Another Ice age is not a question of if but when...We humans, the stewards of the planet can delay the inevitable and if we don't change the current amount being released due to the burning of fossil fuels. We're serving to exipidite the natural cycle...though it might take another millinium or two before the climate gets to the blinking red light stage. As a society it's incumbent of all of mankind to continue the quest to burn cleaner engery and or continue down the road we're on with little regard for the generation to follow...

By condoning and legilizing the use of performance enchancing drugs in professional sport. We're opening a can of worms that is best left un-opened. Becasue it then places more pressure on those that are now in college and HS to use and if and when the use of PEDS becomes the accepted norm, do we as parents then start cycling kids that are pre-pubesent? In hopes of them being a HS prospect? Where do we draw the line...

In response to rkarp's comment:

 

I posted this on the Pats board. Sub Arod for Ray Lewis and MLB for NFL

Lets relook at the facts. HGH and steroids are miracle drugs that used under doctors supervision can be a huge benefit to the NFL in the recovery and comeback from injury and the usual week to week NFL grind. 

If teams monitored usage safely, and not some underground supplier, players could greatly benefit.

does "deer antler" extract have any adverse effects? Does I t really help? Did Ray Lewis come back from a potential season ending injury because of this extract? If he did, shouldn't the NFL be trying to help the players get healthier faster? 

Prather than ignore the fact, hide it under the rug, or simply ban it, I prefer the NFL to embrace it to help players recover and comeback, as long as there are no adverse effects.

 

last week after posting that bob costa had

suggested that for the same reasons that  U suggest

it will happen (mlb) in the near future with some of these banned drugs


4B's responded with some comment about hoping he was dead 1st

and wouldn't  explained what his problem was

in theory I see no difference between this , tommy john or many others

gains from the medical world

 

In response to Beantowne's comment:

By condoning and legilizing the use of performance enchancing drugs in professional sport. We're opening a can of worms that is best left un-opened. Becasue it then places more pressure on those that are now in college and HS to use and if and when the use of PEDS becomes the accepted norm, do we as parents then start cycling kids that are pre-pubesent? In hopes of them being a HS prospect? Where do we draw the line...

[/QUOTE]

GM BT

correct me if I'm wrong

but  'what about the kids ' has been your main concern

pertaining to PEDS for years / since day 1

 I  do / everyone should  respect that

but just like rec drugs & booze

 I think they should / could  put an age limit on use

it's the american way IMO

if NFL players get any faster and stronger, they will have to outlaw tackling soon - the human body simply cant withstand 260 lb men crashing into you with the speed of a bullet train

sometimes you just have to say no to "progress" / science

we can still have great athletes and dynamic competition without drugging our players -  a lifetime ban for anyone caught using PEDs would end this nonsense once and for all and restore integrity to the game - if not they really will have to build a special PED wing in Cooperstown

In response to rkarp's comment:

 

In response to southpaw777's comment:

 

In response to rkarp's comment:

 

I posted this on the Pats board. Sub Arod for Ray Lewis and MLB for NFL

Lets relook at the facts. HGH and steroids are miracle drugs that used under doctors supervision can be a huge benefit to the NFL in the recovery and comeback from injury and the usual week to week NFL grind. 

If teams monitored usage safely, and not some underground supplier, players could greatly benefit.

does "deer antler" extract have any adverse effects? Does I t really help? Did Ray Lewis come back from a potential season ending injury because of this extract? If he did, shouldn't the NFL be trying to help the players get healthier faster? 

Prather than ignore the fact, hide it under the rug, or simply ban it, I prefer the NFL to embrace it to help players recover and comeback, as long as there are no adverse effects.

 

very good point. I really havent looked at it that way, but it does make some sense.

 

 

No sense in boring you with the fact that I have been inhaling steroids for 20 years under doctors supervision to superbly control asthma. Surely professional sports can find ways to use these drugs to improve players health. 

 

 

 

My dad has also had to deal with what you are going through also, so I understand.

 

Yes, If they could monitor them so that they are used to heal the injury and not anything further that would be fine. Not sure though that there would be no long term issues...

Definitely a good arguement IMO...

 

I do not even know what "androstenedione" is.  But I have a feeling that Ryan Braun will come to a "fake doctor" like me for advice.  LOL

Ryan Braun: "What do you recommend ice-cream?"

Me: "How the %&#$ should I know?!?"  LOL 

 

In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

Its one of the PED's McGuire used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androstenedione

In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

GM BT

correct me if I'm wrong

but  'what about the kids ' has been your main concern

pertaining to PEDS for years / since day 1

 I  do / everyone should  respect that

but just like rec drugs & booze

 I think they should / could  put an age limit on use

it's the american way IMO

[/QUOTE]

Zac,

Drugs and Alchohol are poor examples...both are used for recreational purposes...and as such no one is pressured to use them to improve their work performance. FYI I'm a strong proponent of legalizing all drugs and allowing each individual the right to chose and elimante what is an unnessary and costly war on drugs. One that can never be won and one that like prohibition only creates more social issues than it cured. 

The paralel between both is money. In pro sports, performance = money. Enhancing one natural ability to perform by using elicit drugs is illegal so is the sales of drugs...in both cases the rewards outweigh the risk. 

We can trivialize the pressures of the use of steroids at the youth level, but fact is that it is a real concern. We've already seen some of the effects that steroids had on HS and college football players. In the early years when lifting became the norm and bigger, faster, stronger meant that you had to hit the weights and pumping iron alone was replaced with the use of steroids...something that what'd become vogue in the football circles in the late 1960's and into the 70's. Have we now arrived at a place where in the interest of the spector of sport. We're willing to allow athletes to do whatever they want in the interest of bigger faster, stronger...to the point where if you're not inclined to use. You chances of making your HS team become slim....it's not a out the users...it's about those that work hard, eat right and make the most of their god given ability...as a parent of an athlete...one that might well be a legit college player. I'm not looking forward to the day when he and I will be faced with the choice...if it becomes an accepted norm...he won't have that choice if he wants to play...

In the end I am not a strong propent of legalising or condoning the use of Peds at the professional level and think that not only should they continue to work towards purging sport of use. I think that it's is a moral obligation on all sport to stand firm and make the penalty for use so prohibitive if caught you're banned for life...1 strike and you're out. 

in theory I see no difference between this , tommy john or many others

gains from the medical world

I would suggest that the difference might be in the fact that one is legal, and one isn't.  Much like asking what the difference between boubon and pot is, or the difference between caffeine and meth is.

Or to take to the next step, why have an FDC?  Why not just take anything that you feel might help you?

In response to southpaw777's comment:

Thank you Southpaw777 for the info.   :)

A thorough scientific study should be done on the use of steroids and HGH. They obviously have beneficial effects , but also harmful side effects , especially when used to excess. Like all drugs , they should be used to improve lives where possible.  Things change and the day will come where these things will be legalized.

In response to dgalehouse's comment:

HGH is rather recent, and still evolving.  I'd bet there are probably some benefits to them.  Steroids have been around a real long time, and still have not come any closer to be accepted.

1) It doesn't have to be "extended use" 

2) It stands to reason some players may have used banned substances to heal an injury, and then stopped once the injury healed. The team should oversee this process even if it entails using substances with out side effects in the short term

3) Surely teams over seeing this issue, would be beneficial to the current system. A lifetime ban if caught using a non team doctor would potentially eliminate this behavior 

4) Seems a lot of energy and time, as well as dollars are being used to eliminate these enhancers. Should professional sports be embracing the ideas, and trying to help the athletes "enhance performance"? 

Andro was not always illegal.  They used to sell it at GNC; Mark McGuire used to do print advertisements for Andro in weightlifting magazines.

Andro "poppers" were sublingual tablets and they didn't help athletic performance at all.  What they did do was give athletes a legal cover story.  If you were to test positive - you could always say you were taking a steroid "precursor" that you bought at GNC and it would be a great cover story.

Andro was actually a lousy product.

 

 

 

In response to rkarp's comment:

Too much is banned.  Deer Antler should not be illegal.  It's silly to ban everything.

It is a symptom of what is wrong with modern life in America - if you make thousands of regulations - people will eventually break the rules.   We do not need so many regulations and rules. 

Drugs - like steroids - I get it.  I am not saying allow drugs.

Deer Antler and HGF-1 are not drugs.  It is like taking vitamins or herbs.  Deer antler should be legal and if it gioves an advantage - too bad.  It is no different than eating a healthy diet.

Same goes for Ephedra - which was banned.  It had ma huang which is an herb.  It actually will help you lose weight - but it was banned. 

Stupid!

 

 

 

 

In response to Joebreidey's comment:

JB

that was in response to 4B's comment

after MLB made them legal

Drugs and Alchohol are poor examples...both are used for recreational purposes...and as such no one is pressured to use them to improve their work performance.

point taken BT

but my only point there was  that we do use age limits on such things

 that many consider undesirable behavior
 

We can trivialize the pressures of the use of steroids at the youth level, but fact is that it is a real concern. We've already seen some of the effects that steroids had on HS and college football players. In the early years when lifting became the norm and bigger, faster, stronger meant that you had to hit the weights and pumping iron alone was replaced with the use of steroids...something that what'd become vogue in the football circles in the late 1960's and into the 70's. Have we now arrived at a place where in the interest of the spector of sport. We're willing to allow athletes to do whatever they want in the interest of bigger faster, stronger...to the point where if you're not inclined to use. You chances of making your HS team become slim....it's not a out the users...it's about those that work hard, eat right and make the most of their god given ability...as a parent of an athlete...one that might well be a legit college player. I'm not looking forward to the day when he and I will be faced with the choice...if it becomes an accepted norm...he won't have that choice if he wants to play..

didn't mean to sound like I was trivializing anything

IMO if the adults could use it

the market for masking agents would shrink

giving a better chance of catching   the suspected younger users
 

.

In the end I am not a strong propent of legalising or condoning the use of Peds at the professional level and think that not only should they continue to work towards purging sport of use. I think that it's is a moral obligation on all sport to stand firm and make the penalty for use so prohibitive if caught you're banned for life...1 strike and you're out.


2 B honest BT I don't even know if

there is such a thing as 'a false positive '

but as long as that myth lives

I don't see any players union agreeing to a 1 and done

It was obvious that Piazza was doping steroids and taking growth hormones. The fact is that not everyone was doing it, and there is no way to use "everyone was doing it" to condone it or ignore it.

Piazza made a decision that he'll make more money from a "tell some" book, and still end up in the Hall of Fame due to "everyone was doing it so let's forget about it" affect.

Piazza is a great example for youth. Illegally taking PED's will make you young kids a lot of money and help increase your chances of getting in the HOF (you can guarantee they weren't under valid limited prescriptions for medical healing purposes)

So, send the right message. Put these dopers in the HOF and send children the right message. Injecting, absorbing or ingesting animal or human growth hormone or synthetic growth hormone pays and provides celebrity status.