Pitching acquisition ideas.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas. : Difference is the guys you mentioned wanted to become closers... Bard does not and even said Heaven Forbid to the notion of remaining in the bullpen.
    Posted by DaBlade[/QUOTE]

    I think Bard said that in reference to remaining a set up man (after the trade for Melacon and discussions that he could close).  He's a young kid with a great arm trying to maximize his earnings; I don't blame him for not wanting to remain in middle relief.

    On the other hand, it is frustrating as a fan to listen to players get so particular with things like where they bat in the order (ala Jorge Posada's melt down last year).

    PS - not all starters converted into closers wanted that.  sometimes, it was  out of necessity.  Like the Quiz.  Shoulder injuries forced him to short relief.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.:
    [QUOTE]Keeping Bard and Aceves n the pen would be ideal.  You simply cannot replace Papelbon, Bard and Aceves with Melancon and Jenks and think its going to work. I'd like to see the Sox offer a package of Scutaro, Middlebrooks, and another (Oscar Tejada?) for Jair Jurrjens. I have very little faith in Middlebrooks.  Yes, I know he is an athletic, solid defensive 3B with good power who is overly aggressive at the plate.  To me, that means there is a good chacnce he can turn into the next Kevin Kouzmanoff.   (Although to be fair, Kouzmanoff was a much better hitter in the minors.) Atlanta has no SS, and there is very little step down from Scutaro to Aviles.  There really isn't.  Scutaro is a little bit better of a hitter, but Aviles is a better defensive player.
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
    Agree with 1st part of this statement. Bard can't go to rotation unless RS get Bailey/Madsen type or Bard stays and RS aquire 4-5 type starters, its either or.
    As for assesment of Middlebrooks be careful! If he takes another jump like last year he could be in majors next year making an impact. Even the experts are wrong a lot. Always tough to predict potential or a players ceiling. How many scouts told us Youk would never hit more than 20 hrs because he didn't do it in minors, or did anyone ever see Jacoby hitting 30 hrs and having an MVP type year, or Pedroia becoming the player he has based on his size and swing type? Or remember when M.Bowden was going to be next big RS starting pitcher? Midlebrooks has made himself into one of the top RS prospects and until he proves otherwise there is a lot to like.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas. : Agree with 1st part of this statement. Bard can't go to rotation unless RS get Bailey/Madsen type or Bard stays and RS aquire 4-5 type starters, its either or. As for assesment of Middlebrooks be careful! If he takes another jump like last year he could be in majors next year making an impact. Even the experts are wrong a lot. Always tough to predict potential or a players ceiling. How many scouts told us Youk would never hit more than 20 hrs because he didn't do it in minors, or did anyone ever see Jacoby hitting 30 hrs and having an MVP type year, or Pedroia becoming the player he has based on his size and swing type? Or remember when M.Bowden was going to be next big RS starting pitcher? Midlebrooks has made himself into one of the top RS prospects and until he proves otherwise there is a lot to like.
    Posted by garyhow[/QUOTE]
    Will Middlebrooks is no Kevin Youkilis, Jacoby Ellsbury or Dustin Pedroia. Compare these career minor league statistics:

    Youkilis 1823 PA, 328 BB, 214 K, .442 OBP
    Ellsbury 1192 PA, 115 BB, 127 K, .393 OBP
    Pedroia 1223 PA, 126 BB, 77 K, .392 OBP
    Mbrooks 1606 PA, 121 BB, 431 K, .330 OBP

    The hole in Middlebrooks' swing -- and in his career potential -- is clear.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    Trade Lavarnway and Agon for Carl Pavano, he had a really good year in 2011; he is awesome.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas. : But if the Sox land Madson or trade for Bailey or League, then you have come close:  Madson, Melancon and Jenks might be just as good as Papelbon, Bard and Aceves were, especially down the stretch when Pap was checked out and blew the season in two blown saves, and Bard lost his mechanics and had a rather lengthy stretch of ineffectiveness. Aceves is the hard one to replace, because of the role he played and how well he pitched in it.  But it is also a mistake to assume he will pitch just as well next year if given that role again.  Most relievers cannot repeat their effectiveness year after year.  And Aceves has no track record of doing that.  Let's not forget that he was a non-tender just a season ago.  And the team that gave up on him is not some poorly run team that non-tenders players they are afraid might end up being too costly to keep.  The Yankees let him go for a reason (or reasons).  The fact that he wants to be a starter might affect his attitude and performance next year if he is not given the chance to convert.  The same could be said of Bard, especially if he is returned to the set-up role.  This isn't fantasy baseball.  These are real men, playing a boys game.  They have real feelings and egos.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    Doesn’t it seem odd to claim whether or not Aceves can duplicate his relief effectiveness as a reason to move him to the rotation?  That kind of logic is the baseball equivalent of the Peter Principle.

    As for players feelings, etc., I don’t like those arguments because I don’t know the players personally.  I don’t know if Bard will willingly return to a set up role or not.  Personally, I’d just assume bump him to the closing role, and have him set up by Aceves, Melancon, and/or Jenks.  Pitchers primarily prefer starting or closing for the same reason – those jobs pay better.  So if Bard is looking to maximize his worth – and who doesn’t like doing that? – he does seem more suited for closing.  If you excuse his poor September for losing his mechanics, which is frequently caused by fatigue, how can you argue for putting him in a role that requires two to three times as many IP?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Pitching acquisition ideas. : Agree with 1st part of this statement. Bard can't go to rotation unless RS get Bailey/Madsen type or Bard stays and RS aquire 4-5 type starters, its either or. As for assesment of Middlebrooks be careful! If he takes another jump like last year he could be in majors next year making an impact. Even the experts are wrong a lot. Always tough to predict potential or a players ceiling. How many scouts told us Youk would never hit more than 20 hrs because he didn't do it in minors, or did anyone ever see Jacoby hitting 30 hrs and having an MVP type year, or Pedroia becoming the player he has based on his size and swing type? Or remember when M.Bowden was going to be next big RS starting pitcher? Midlebrooks has made himself into one of the top RS prospects and until he proves otherwise there is a lot to like.
    Posted by garyhow[/QUOTE]

    Well, one way or another, my assessment of Middlebrooks is immaterial.  And maybe you remember I was among those who said Youkilis would never hit 30HRs (although I was always critical of Richie Sexson).  Technically, Youkilis hasn’t, but he has come close enough for me to admit I was wrong about him.  (In fact, the year he hit 29, didn’t he have that one that rolled along the top of the wall in KC that was like millimeters from being a HR?  Or was it the wall topper in NY That Youk hit?) 

    However, were you posting here for my Pedroia assessments buried deep in these archives, you might recall I frequently compared him to Chase Utley for Dustin’s doubters.  And while Pedroia didn’t quite reach that level, he came close enough that I can call it a victory.

    I’m not so much working off scouting material as I am off what Middlebrooks has been doing.  Prospects can go either way –they are lottery tickets.   And while half the board is giving “sell high” reasons to deal Ellsbury, to me it makes more sense to sell the lottery ticket while it’s high.  Even if Middlebrooks does pan out, he can certainly be dealt for a player we KNOW can pitch at this level.  I’m OK with giving quality to get quality.

    If we evaluate Middlebrooks’ career to date, there are some red flags with him that definitely should raise some doubt, and I disagree that simply climbing to the tops of the organization rankings alleviates them.  We all thought Lars Anderson was the next big thing at some point, too, and he fell completely off the radar.  In fact, there might be more to like about Anderson than Middlebrooks even now.  Lars is still only one year older, and, last year in his age 23 season, Anderson hit .265/.369/.422 with 14HRs and 120/80 K/BB in AAA.  He is considered a disappointment.  At 22, Middlebrooks hit .302/.345/.522 with 18HRs and 95/21 K/BB in AA and is considered the top prospect.  Granted, there are factors related to defense and position at play in there, too, but Anderson also dealt with a lot more nagging injuries. And at age 22, Anderson played very little AA ball, but got off to such a dominant start he was promoted almost immediately and played modestly well at the higher level.  

    But let’s not have another Lars Anderson argument…

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Pitching acquisition ideas.

    I hope Will Middlebrooks has a long and productive MLB career.

    However, at the risk of piling on, I have doubts about Middlebrooks' prospects. In July, Boston Globe columnist Nick Cafardo wrote of Middlebrooks:

    "The Sox are trying to get him to become more selective, like Youkilis. While Middlebrooks always will have a healthy number of strikeouts, he’s never going to be Mark Reynolds bad, and the hope is he emerges into a doubles/home runs guy."

    http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-11/sports/29761811_1_middlebrooks-number-of-power-hitters-difficult-position/2

    Here are the career minor league numbers for Will Middlebrooks and Mark Reynolds:

    Mdbrooks 1606 PA, .272/.330/.440/.770, 121 BB, 431 K (26.8% K rate)
    Reynolds 1393 PA, .280/.360/.525/.885, 135 BB, 322 K (23.1% K rate)

    Reynolds skipped Triple A to make his MLB debut before his 24th birthday in 2007. Middlebrooks turned 23 last September.

    Mark Reynolds has value and the Red Sox will have a keeper if Will Middlebrooks can match the MLB production of Reynolds.
     

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