PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    Lester, Buch, and Doubront.......young starters we have now.....will they get better? or are they what they are?

    Lackey..healthy averages 3.00....staying? going?....not dominant.

    Bard?

    Are we doomed this year just because these guys will stay but not improve to anything more than they are now?

    FA pickup of a solid #1/2 looks bleak at best. Someone want to put a positive spin on this ??

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    Lester, prior to 2012 went 65-32 with a mid 3 ERA. has no injury issues and logs 200+ innings a year.

    Doubie finished the year strong and we should expect closer to 200IP from him in 2013.

    Buch looked dominant after getting his feet back under him from the injury in 2012.

    With TJS out of the way, Lackey could be that 15 win mid 3 ERA  200+ IP guy he used to be.

    The Sox went through 3 pitching coaches in 2 years and we saw what that kind of instability will cause.

    Now with Farrell back, I can see Lester returning to form and also Bard making a comeback.

    Lester Buch and lackey have all been 15 game winners and Doubront has that potential as well from what we saw of him in 2012. Thats a prett good 1-4 IMO.

    Hows that?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    First of all, it will be very tough to find pitching via trade.  If you look at all postseason teams along with a division second place finisher teams all have good young starting pitching staffs which that was why they all have a good year.  Do you think one of these teams will try to trade one of the their top two pitchers to Boston?  Seattle is never going to trade Felix.  Wish Boston could have try to get him two years ago before Seattle finally changed their mind.   These teams will be stupid if they do happen to trade away one of their top two pitchers which that is exactly what Boston really need (an ACE pitcher or #2 type of a pitcher).

    Pitchings are hard to find in nowsdays.  Getting someone via free agency isnt the easy way to fix the rotation.  Every team who tried that method in the past five years, they failed more than they succeeded!!   Look at teams making to ALCS/NLCS to WS, most pitchers are homegrown pitchers except some may be via trade.  

    So what I am saying, it may be very impossible to fix the starting rotation during this off season unless Boston is willing to make a huge blockbuster trade!!  

    I just think the best solution is maybe to trade Ellsbury for a pitcher, but which team?  Like we all heard a rumor that Texas may trade Holland for Ellsbury.  That is probably a type of a pitcher that Boston could get if they trade Ellsbury.  So is that what Boston wanted to do. Or maybe they may not have to trade Ellsbury...maybe Lavarnway along with prospects (stay away from top ten prospects) for a pitcher.  Still Boston is more likely going to get a pitcher like Holland type....not Felix or Cueto of Reds or like that. 

    Plan B, sign Shield if Rays do not pick up his option which he is the top choice.  Gavin Floyd is another interesting pitcher to sign if White Sox do not want him, but I strongly think he wanted a long term contract.  That is not what Boston wanted to do.  McCarthy is not a bad guy to sign, but he is already an often injure proned pitcher.  Is he worth to pick up eventhought Boston isnt sure how healthy is Lackey for this coming season?  I would say forget him.  

    If not, then go after a short term pitcher such as Haren, Sanchez and Kuroda.  And hopfully down on the road, there is someone ready to move up to pitch at the major league level.  Right now I may not see anyone yet.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Lester, prior to 2012 went 65-32 with a mid 3 ERA. has no injury issues and logs 200+ innings a year.

    Doubie finished the year strong and we should expect closer to 200IP from him in 2013.

    Buch looked dominant after getting his feet back under him from the injury in 2012.

    With TJS out of the way, Lackey could be that 15 win mid 3 ERA  200+ IP guy he used to be.

    The Sox went through 3 pitching coaches in 2 years and we saw what that kind of instability will cause.

    Now with Farrell back, I can see Lester returning to form and also Bard making a comeback.

    Lester Buch and lackey have all been 15 game winners and Doubront has that potential as well from what we saw of him in 2012. Thats a prett good 1-4 IMO.

    Hows that?



    Succinct and well laid out Southpaw.

    These guys are not scrap heap.  Any team would feel good with these 4 somewhere in their rotation (not bard though).  But, what the club does need to be a contender, is one good #1 or 2 type guy.  I am not sure who that is that is on the market this year.  But that is what is needed.  Maybe a healthy Dan Haren.  Dunno.  But put one top rotation guy in with Lester, lackey, Doubront, Buchholz, and that is a formidable rotation.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    The only pitcher I wish we could jettison is Lackey. I initially thought he would be a solid addition to the rotation but now believe he is almost worthless in Boston. Do the Dodgers need any pitching?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    The only pitcher I wish we could jettison is Lackey. I initially thought he would be a solid addition to the rotation but now believe he is almost worthless in Boston. Do the Dodgers need any pitching?




    He might just surprise a few folks here DD, after a successful TJS.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Lester, prior to 2012 went 65-32 with a mid 3 ERA. has no injury issues and logs 200+ innings a year.

    Doubie finished the year strong and we should expect closer to 200IP from him in 2013.

    Buch looked dominant after getting his feet back under him from the injury in 2012.

    With TJS out of the way, Lackey could be that 15 win mid 3 ERA  200+ IP guy he used to be.

    The Sox went through 3 pitching coaches in 2 years and we saw what that kind of instability will cause.

    Now with Farrell back, I can see Lester returning to form and also Bard making a comeback.

    Lester Buch and lackey have all been 15 game winners and Doubront has that potential as well from what we saw of him in 2012. Thats a prett good 1-4 IMO.

    Hows that?



    Succinct and well laid out Southpaw.

    These guys are not scrap heap.  Any team would feel good with these 4 somewhere in their rotation (not bard though).  But, what the club does need to be a contender, is one good #1 or 2 type guy.  I am not sure who that is that is on the market this year.  But that is what is needed.  Maybe a healthy Dan Haren.  Dunno.  But put one top rotation guy in with Lester, lackey, Doubront, Buchholz, and that is a formidable rotation.




    Thanks space. My reference to Bard was as a reliever, not a starter...

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    pzac,

    I agree about Bard.  His troubles started in August of 2011.  That is one reason I supported his move to the rotation; I was not convinced, nor am I now, that he is as good an 8th inning reliever as many here assume.  Hopefully mechanical issues can be addressed and he will find his 100 mph heater again, but location is key even at that speed.  He has to be able to locate it, otherwise he just gives up monster line drives and HRs.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    As far as the starters go, the Sox need at least one #1 or #2 guy, and that can be had on the open market.  If the terms are for no more than 4 years and 15 million per, then it is a great investment for a Peavy or Haren.  I would sign both, as I have said on numerous threads, and then use Doubront (the most tradeable commodity, IMO) to get a strong hitting 1Bman like Ike Davis.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    Peavy or Haren for 4yrs/15 mm is a horrible investment!!   Boston only will trade Doubront if they happen to get another left hander pitcher via trade such as Holland.  Heck no way that Boston is going to have Holland, Doubront and Lester in their rotation.  Maybe it may work out perfectly at the Yankee stadium.  That is only 9 games over there!!

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    The Red Sox should be cautiously optimistic about a rotation that includes Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, John Lackey and Felix Doubront. Regression should be kind to all, except perhaps Doubront.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    The only pitcher I wish we could jettison is Lackey. I initially thought he would be a solid addition to the rotation but now believe he is almost worthless in Boston. Do the Dodgers need any pitching?




    He might just surprise a few folks here DD, after a successful TJS.


    I agree with you.  I am very optimistic about the return of John Lackey to the Red Sox pitching staff.  Many pitchers have great success after tommy john surgery.  We can hope that he has a great season.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    Peavy or Haren for 4yrs/15 mm is a horrible investment!!   Boston only will trade Doubront if they happen to get another left hander pitcher via trade such as Holland.  Heck no way that Boston is going to have Holland, Doubront and Lester in their rotation.  Maybe it may work out perfectly at the Yankee stadium.  That is only 9 games over there!!

     




    4 at 15 is the most I would go, and that is still a better investment than the farm talent it would take to trade for a 30ish pitcher who routinely pitches with an ERA around 3.20 - 3.6.  I would rather see the Sox spend the 60 million (less than half of what they promised Carl Crawford) for 2-3 good years of Dan Haren than watch them trade Bradley, Jr., De La Rosa, and Will Middlebrooks for, say, a James Shields (if that would even be enough).  Any team looking to trade their #1 or #2 starter (are ANY really LOOKING to do that?) would want your top pitching prospect (maybe two), your top hitting prospect and a bona fide ML ready player who has the potential to immediately impact their lineup or a decent starter to fill the 200 innings they just traded away (if not both).

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    The point is, even if you over pay for Haren (and whoever lands him will), and he only gives you 2-3 good years on a 4-year deal, that is enough to bridge the gap to some of the fine young arms developing in the minors (Barnes, De La Rosa, Webster, Light, to name a few).  Then you are stuck with a year or two of 15 million wasted, or eating 8 million to affect a trade.  That is still far better than what was going to happen with Crawford.  And it is better, IMO, than not having those young guys on the farm because you traded them for a pitcher who is gone or done in 2-3 years (and who, by the way, was probably earning 60-75% of what you would have spent on Haren anyway). 

     

    If you think long-term, you actually save money by going 4 years for Haren and turning his spot over in 2 or 3 to a young guy earning league minimum and under team control for 5 years. 

     

    The route you suggest will mean trading for a guy who may cost 8-12 million over that same 4 year period, and then having to re-up him or make another trade, or invest in an overpaid FA pitcher to fill that spot because you had to trade your most advanced and best pitching prospects to land said starter.  This is especially costly if the pitcher you traded for is only effective for the same 2-3 years I projected for Haren.  And the same fiscal argument works for Peavy, only a little more so, since he is younger.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    And if you are lucky enough to trade for an arbitration eligible starter and inflation of salaries continues, you may end up paying almost as much or more over the 4 years than if you locked up a 4-year deal on Haren.  Arbitrators don't insist that a pitcher wins you a particularly large number of games.  Starting pitchers earn substantial raises just by virtue of them being decent starters who are able to pitch every 5th game.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    i pray that Lackey gets bombed every single time on the mound.  and the sox come back and win 10-9. 

    pure disdain for that schlub.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    First of all, maybe i would pay just for one guy but not for 4 years....maybe 2 years, the most.  Then if Boston need to buy more times to develop pitchers in the minor league, then they can resign this same guy again (if he have a very good two years with the RS) if he would like to come back or sign someone else during the 2014 off season.  That is not too hard to do especially most of them are not an ACE pitcher nor #2 type of a pitcher anyway!!

    You dont want to keep having same #3 to #5 type pitchers on the rotation for the next four years.  You want a guy from the bottom to move up.  Like Bucholz moving up.  Got to keep doing that every year!!  Once the top pitcher is on the decline, he goes bye bye!!!  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    i pray that Lackey gets bombed every single time on the mound.  and the sox come back and win 10-9. 

    pure disdain for that schlub.




    if you hate him that much you should really hope he comes back and pitches really well. since he had TJ we get a "free" year from him at the league minimum. that could be REALLY attractive to other teams. especially if he looks like hes the lackey of old.

    just a thought, that would not only help us win, but help get him out of town and even net us a decent prospect or 2

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    watching the pitchers in the post-season games really emphasizes just how lacking the redsox 2012 season was for quality pitching.   redsox pitching needs a serious makeover.  hope the glimmer twins Ben and Farrell have a plan.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    according to the village idiot, the pitching was not the problem

     

    and yes this years postseason has also shown me how important it really is.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    pzac,

    I agree about Bard.  His troubles started in August of 2011.  That is one reason I supported his move to the rotation; I was not convinced, nor am I now, that he is as good an 8th inning reliever as many here assume.  Hopefully mechanical issues can be addressed and he will find his 100 mph heater again, but location is key even at that speed.  He has to be able to locate it, otherwise he just gives up monster line drives and HRs.




    Bard got lit up a lot of the time when he was a collegiate in North Carolina and that ill fated move to the starting rotation that he and Cherington wanted not only was a colossal failure but it left the guy totally discombobulated and I wouldn't count on him coming back soon, if at all.  He was a basket case when sent down to Pawtucket and in my opinion we should just write this guy off.  IMO, he is finished.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: PITCHING.....Do we have to keep what we have now?

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    pzac,

    I agree about Bard.  His troubles started in August of 2011.  That is one reason I supported his move to the rotation; I was not convinced, nor am I now, that he is as good an 8th inning reliever as many here assume.  Hopefully mechanical issues can be addressed and he will find his 100 mph heater again, but location is key even at that speed.  He has to be able to locate it, otherwise he just gives up monster line drives and HRs.




    Bard got lit up a lot of the time when he was a collegiate in North Carolina and that ill fated move to the starting rotation that he and Cherington wanted not only was a colossal failure but it left the guy totally discombobulated and I wouldn't count on him coming back soon, if at all.  He was a basket case when sent down to Pawtucket and in my opinion we should just write this guy off.  IMO, he is finished.




    what a ray of sunshine you are. write BC off. write bard off. who next? pedey? papi? middlebrooks? maybe you should consider a change of fandom. maybe root for a soccer team instead?

     
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