Please let Papi go!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Well, of course it depends on what he wants and the Sox FO thinks is justified. 
    My perspective is that the Sox had the best offense (most runs, highest OPS) in MLB this year, and Ortiz was part of that and the best DH in MLB.

    If Ortiz goes, of course Youk gets to DH, so no dropoff there.  The problem is the significant dropoff to whoever fills in at 3B for Youk.  Youk ain't that great a fielder anymore, but he is one of the best hitting thirdbasemen in MLB.  I just don't see Middlebrooks or Aviles or Lowrie coming anywhere near Ortiz's or Youk's numbers. 

    And please don't talk about making a trade for a good hitting thirdbaseman because the absolute top priority on trades has to be pitching--one or two starters and 1, 2, or 3 relievers (even though the Sox have had very little success trading for relievers). 

    Because the hitting is so much better than the pitching, the Sox might trade Youk for a good starter--provided, of course they can get one.  And that's one more reason to hang onto Ortiz. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Here's my take on Ortiz...

    Pro's for resigning him...
    >Proven middle of the order bat, top run producer @ DH
    />Posted his best overall offensive season since 2007
    />Drastic improvement with splits against lefty's in 2011
    />Iconic personality who competes regardless of the stage
    />Provides protection and serves to legnthen our lineup
    />Prototypical Red Sox hitter that makes pitchers work
    />900 OPS from the 5 hole tough to replace
    />Contract terms if no more than 2 years garanteed.

    Con's if they resign him...
    >Turns 36 in two weeks...
    />Contract terms and length of deal if more than 2 years are garanteed...
    />Offers no upgrade or advantage in NL parks becasue he's a lefty that plays 1B
    />Limits managers use of his bench due to having a full time DH
    />Can he duplicate his 2011 season in 2012
    />Does he morph back into the Ortiz of 2008/2009?
    />Is he still seen as a positive force in the clubhouse?
    />Like it or not will always have the stigma of peds hanging over him...

    Those are some not all of the issues that Cherington will have to weigh and I sure there are others...I'm a proponat of letting him walk and using the DH at bats as a natural platoon and way to get at bats for my key bench guys and to rest some of the regulars...that said...300-30-100 is tough to replace, not knowing what we're getting with Youk next year....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]I wouldn't sign him for 3 years.  Like I said, sign him for a decent price.  2 Years tops.  No higher than 10 mill. per year.  His request I think is just a bargaining ploy on his part.  If the Sox were to offer him 2 years 20 mill, I think he would take it. But, to just let him walk and basically not wanting him like many of you are saying, isn't smart.  Despite his recent antics, his numbers would be difficult to repalce.  It is not like he is a horrible clubhouse presence.  Just not the as much of a likaeable teddy bear that he used to be.
    Posted by sjddaj[/QUOTE]

    20 mil is overpaying Ortiz. You can't keep paying him for his past. He is 36. Can't run. Can't field. Complains. Not a leader. Never runs out ground balls even especially ones he may have a shot at(force fielder to make plays). And we don't know what his clubhouse presence is like.

    Fans are not ragging on Ortiz. Most Sox fans appreciate all his past heroics. And just because many find it is time to move on, does not mean we don't admire and appreciate the guy. But keeping a player just because of that at a high price might not be best for the team. 

    Sometimes you have to just move on, as in the case with V-tek and Wake. I am sure the Sox can fill Ortiz's spot with a strong bat who can also field and run.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from sjddaj. Show sjddaj's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    I wouldn't sign him for 3 years.  Like I said, sign him for a decent price.

     2 Years tops.  No higher than 10 mill. per year.  His request I think is just a bargaining ploy on his part.  If the Sox were to offer him 2 years 20 mill, I think he would take it.

    But, to just let him walk and basically not wanting him like many of you are saying, isn't smart.  Despite his recent antics, his numbers would be difficult to repalce.  It is not like he is a horrible clubhouse presence.  Just not the as much of a likaeable teddy bear that he used to be.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    first off i would like to say that i do not really want Ortiz back for the reasons people have already said.
    I still dont know how i feel about this... but ill go ahead and put it out there.
    Move youk to DH, while still playing him at third a good amount. I trust Aviles and Lowrie/free agent to take up the rest of third base. I would then use the money from Ortiz to get Carlos Beltran. Beltran would play right field and would also take the rest of the time Youk doesnt DH along with Lavarnway. This would give the roster more flexibilty, fills ortiz's bat, and gets us two draft picks from ortiz.
    Again i dont know quite how i feel about this because of Beltrans age, but its a possibilty.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again just to be repetitive. No one since Yaz has ever more earned the right to retire in the home whites than David Ortiz. 20M for two years isn't overpaying for the production Papi gave us last year, if he can keep up that pace. Throw in a mutual option for a third year and Ortiz retires as a Red Sox IMO. To me, that's a good move on at least two levels. First it brings back the premier DH in all of baseball to the Sox. Second it's a good PR move when it comes to attracting big time ballplayers to Boston. Let's face it, the Red Sox public image has really taken a beating in the wake of the September collapse and the hatchet jobs by the Boston press on the Club in general and Francona in particular. That being said, if I were GM I might tell David's agent to come back with the best offer he can get and we'll beat it. I don't think David could get 10M per from anyone else but the Sox, especially with the Yanquis out of the picture.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from baroque. Show baroque's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    I say keep Big Papi.  He's loyal, works hard, and has mileage left. Why give the Yanks a present?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Please let Papi go! : Are the Sox trying to improve(perhaps get younger, more use out of the dh) or trying to let guys retire a Red Sox and fill people's hearts and desires? It is business. If Ortiz goes, he will always be remembered for being a great Red Sox. He does not have to retire in a Sox uniform for that to happen. Again, his numbers were nice, but do those numbers match his game winning heroics of the past? I don't think they did this season. As far as Agon running out grounders(not the point here), I never thought the Sox needed him. But at least he plays a position and plays it well. Keeping Ortiz in my mind will not attract any more or less big time ballplayers. Money does that. I think the drama comment along with the Yankee comment really struck a cord with fans. Ortiz has always been treated well by the fans. And I think many wanted to know where and what was he doing during the downfall to help? When the team needed him the most, he was not there. And then to just toss those comments out like he was not a part of it. Nope. Sorry, you sink or swim with your team. Not threaten to walk. I say the Sox can get a more useful Dh, maybe not as productive cushy number wise, but it is time to do something different with the Dh slot in Boston.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]Well, we all have our opinions. As for the Yankees comment, David was asked specifically by the interviewer if he would ever play for the Yankees and he said "I'd have to think about it." Also anyone with eyes has to admit that CHB and Bob Hohler have generated some drama around the Red Sox since the end of the season.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Signing Papi is a tough choice. Everyone says how do you replace 30/100 well it might be with 22/80. Not terrible. He is a big personality and although i havent been in that clubhouse im pretty sure he dominates it. Pretty hard for a new manager to come in take charge. Did Agon run out grounders in SD?or did he see Papi not running them out and he just followed a team leader. A lot to consider besides 30/100
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]first off i would like to say that i do not really want Ortiz back for the reasons people have already said. I still dont know how i feel about this... but ill go ahead and put it out there. Move youk to DH, while still playing him at third a good amount. I trust Aviles and Lowrie/free agent to take up the rest of third base. I would then use the money from Ortiz to get Carlos Beltran. Beltran would play right field and would also take the rest of the time Youk doesnt DH along with Lavarnway. This would give the roster more flexibilty, fills ortiz's bat, and gets us two draft picks from ortiz. Again i dont know quite how i feel about this because of Beltrans age, but its a possibilty.
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]I like it!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]I've said it before, and I'll say it again just to be repetitive. No one since Yaz has ever more earned the right to retire in the home whites than David Ortiz. 20M for two years isn't overpaying for the production Papi gave us last year, if he can keep up that pace. Throw in a mutual option for a third year and Ortiz retires as a Red Sox IMO. To me, that's a good move on at least two levels. First it brings back the premier DH in all of baseball to the Sox. Second it's a good PR move when it comes to attracting big time ballplayers to Boston. Let's face it, the Red Sox public image has really taken a beating in the wake of the September collapse and the hatchet jobs by the Boston press on the Club in general and Francona in particular. That being said, if I were GM I might tell David's agent to come back with the best offer he can get and we'll beat it. I don't think David could get 10M per from anyone else but the Sox, especially with the Yanquis out of the picture.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Are the Sox trying to improve(perhaps get younger, more use out of the dh) or trying to let guys retire a Red Sox and fill people's hearts and desires? It is business.

    If Ortiz goes, he will always be remembered for being a great Red Sox. He does not have to retire in a Sox uniform for that to happen.

    Again, his numbers were nice, but do those numbers match his game winning heroics of the past? I don't think they did this season.

    As far as Agon running out grounders(not the point here), I never thought the Sox needed him. But at least he plays a position and plays it well.

    Keeping Ortiz in my mind will not attract any more or less big time ballplayers. Money does that.

    I think the drama comment along with the Yankee comment really struck a cord with fans. Ortiz has always been treated well by the fans. And I think many wanted to know where and what was he doing during the downfall to help? When the team needed him the most, he was not there. And then to just toss those comments out like he was not a part of it. Nope. Sorry, you sink or swim with your team. Not threaten to walk.

    I say the Sox can get a more useful Dh, maybe not as productive cushy number wise, but it is time to do something different with the Dh slot in Boston.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from lhtak. Show lhtak's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    We will all regret letting Papi go, he is essential for this team. Youk's are not going to help us fill the DH role, get real. Give this guy a decent deal.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Concur that it is time for him to walk.  Thanks Papi...goodbye and good luck!  If this team ever wants to change direction and get younger this is the best move they can make.  My guess is that the salary dump will free up some money to look for a few good arms for the pitching staff.  I still think that the Sox have enough hitting to compete successfully in the AL East.  TB proves every year that pitching and not hitting are the keys to success.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    He is not essential. And those of us who won't mind seeing him leave won't miss him. His is 36. He can't run. He can't field. He does not hustle. And his past heroics are just that: past. Time to look at other options. This is the time to shake up the team and get it moving forward and making the playoffs. Ortiz quit on his team and teamates with his comments and lack of actions in Sept. He was great for Boston. And he will always be revered for his heroics, but that cannot guarantee his staying in Boston just so fans can see him retire a Sox. It has to be about making the team better, younger, and allowing the new manager a chance to bring back team chemistry. I just don't see why it is so essential he re-signs (at an overpayed contract).
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Zac,

       Everytime Papi really hustles he gets injured.  As a huge Papi fan (no un intended) I am not making a negative comment, just one that seems real.

      You cannot ask an elephant to be a puma, both are majestic in their own way. ... (Old East Indian saying ... that I just made up.  Heck, I'm getting to be an old east indian ...Native American AND East Indian!)

      Papi doesn't need to hustle like Cano or Pedey ... his job is completely different than that.  I am not so much preaching at you, old friend, as hoping some of it might rub off on some Nation members ...

      Papi was never called "Mr. Hustle" but "Mr. Clutch" ...


      



      
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Could I suggest the thread be renamed to

      "Please Leave Papi Alone!" ???

        I  know renaming it to

      "Please lather praise on Papi"  would be too much to ask, so I'm going with the first alternative.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    So we should had can't hustle to the list of things Ortiz cannot do? He sounds less appealing by the minute.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]So we should had can't hustle to the list of things Ortiz cannot do? He sounds less appealing by the minute.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Hustle to Papi - and those of his physical frame - isn't the same as hustle to someone in a greyhound's frame.  A St. Bernard has a completely different purpose than a whippet.  Both have their place.  While I realize many would take to the St. Bernard due to the storied cask around it's neck ... my point is he's a life saver slogging through tough weather and terrain ... while a whippet was a dog of leisure and entertainment. 

    I have no problem saying Papi can slog and jog, as long as he hits and hurries.  What a lot of people take for lack of hustle is the fact he just isn't very fast. 

    I used to run long distance races because I wasn't quick or fast.  But I had endurance.  7 years of 4 miles every morning delivering the Globe, Herald and Record-American gave me a built in edge.  But I still was slow enough that you could fry and egg on my 220 times.  In the end, I could run.  Slow and long (Forrest SinceYaz, anyone?) but always beat the speedsters in endurance.

    Different skill sets.

    Different not one bad or the other.

    Unless you mixed them without knowing what to expect.

    Papi is still a very fine player.  Older, yes.  Worth getting rid of?  Not unless we have another bonafide slugger to replace him.


    If there are questions to that claim - bonafide slugger

      Last season, 4th in AL in OBP - .398
       4th in Slugging in AL - .544
       4th in OPS - .953
       9th in extra base hits
       9th in walks
       

    and was an All-Star ....


       Lousy bum.

     
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxfan1967. Show soxfan1967's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    Letting Papi go and using Youk as the DH implies 1) Youk can stay healthy 2) He can hit 35 HR and drive in 110.  3) Aviles can play 3rd eavery day for the first half of the season until WM is ready.

    too many question marks.  Keep Papi for 2 years.  Ist year at $15M and the second at $10M with incentives. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from lhtak. Show lhtak's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    [QUOTE]I've said it before, and I'll say it again just to be repetitive. No one since Yaz has ever more earned the right to retire in the home whites than David Ortiz. 20M for two years isn't overpaying for the production Papi gave us last year, if he can keep up that pace. Throw in a mutual option for a third year and Ortiz retires as a Red Sox IMO. To me, that's a good move on at least two levels. First it brings back the premier DH in all of baseball to the Sox. Second it's a good PR move when it comes to attracting big time ballplayers to Boston. Let's face it, the Red Sox public image has really taken a beating in the wake of the September collapse and the hatchet jobs by the Boston press on the Club in general and Francona in particular. That being said, if I were GM I might tell David's agent to come back with the best offer he can get and we'll beat it. I don't think David could get 10M per from anyone else but the Sox, especially with the Yanquis out of the picture.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Can not agree anymore.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    In Response to Re: Please let Papi go!:
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again just to be repetitive. No one since Yaz has ever more earned the right to retire in the home whites than David Ortiz. 20M for two years isn't overpaying for the production Papi gave us last year, if he can keep up that pace. Throw in a mutual option for a third year and Ortiz retires as a Red Sox IMO. To me, that's a good move on at least two levels. First it brings back the premier DH in all of baseball to the Sox. Second it's a good PR move when it comes to attracting big time ballplayers to Boston. Let's face it, the Red Sox public image has really taken a beating in the wake of the September collapse and the hatchet jobs by the Boston press on the Club in general and Francona in particular. That being said, if I were GM I might tell David's agent to come back with the best offer he can get and we'll beat it. I don't think David could get 10M per from anyone else but the Sox, especially with the Yanquis out of the picture.
    Posted by carnie


    Can not agree anymore.




    THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU! 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Please let Papi go!

    We all know Papi is not built for speed. And can't field or run(never could). But he does not hustle. Ever. His hustling might land him on first a few more times. His hustling would force more fielders to make the play. His hustle would inspire his teammates. I am not asking him to be speedy, but at least put an effort in trying to get to the bag. His slog and jog as you say is a joke. Shoot, Vladdy still runs hard and he is a large man with many injury issues. If I remember correctly he even stole second on the Sox. Also, Papi sitting on second becomes a huge issue if he will even make it home on a hit.

    Knowing Papi is not built for speed, can't run or field, lacks hustle warrant a look at perhaps taking the DH to a different level? Papi's heroics have past I believe.

    If some number junkie can prove Papi's numbers this season were essential to the SOX or give me a list of them being heroic like the days of old, then I may consider, but not for the money he wants or even the years some of you are ok with.

    Unfortunately endurance won't get Papi safely to first base.

     

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