Please Stop Crying about Francona -

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from chronic352. Show chronic352's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona - : Let's not get too misty eyed about the 2004 RS. Pedro talked about his contract. Schilling rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and his battles with Williamson who he reportedly called out for taking himself out of game (Williamson turned out to have a major injury and was lost for the year), told guys he did not liked the way they wore their uniforms, had his say about Pedro having his own set of rules and Manny for being Manny.  Millar was POed about PT when the RS traded Nomar. What happened here had a lot more to do with the state of the starting pitching in September which eventually also took the bullpen with it. How bad it got brought to light stuff that happens and frankly magnified it. This club stunk is September and it was a lack of pitching talent first and foremost. The "side issues" may have cost them the 2 to 4 games that would have allowed them to make a ALDS appearance and then go home. The manager has moved on. His legacy will be marked over time. I am willing to bet his longevity and win percentage will stand for a long time to come.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]


    Amen!  With all those egos to contend with it is a miracle they were consistently contending for 6 out of the 8 years he was here!!  Look at Joe Kerrigan...a very good pitching coach put WAY out of his element when he managed!!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    I hope the next manager has enough pride to wear his uniform during the game rather than wind-breaker/poncho.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    I hope that the new forum  is minus Burritro.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]I hope the next manager has enough pride to wear his uniform during the game rather than wind-breaker/poncho.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, that should be a deal breaker in the negotiation process.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Shadow721. Show Shadow721's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

     What you did to Tito is a crime.....04...07....He gave you 2 WS rings!
    Fenway WS tickets for sale cheap....great seats available....plenty of parking...no bathroom or concession lines!                                  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    I agree with many of your points, but Terry also never embarassed the organization by getting nailed driving drunk, sleeping around on his wife and getting caught, etc. He was a good man and I wish him well. I'm assuming we'll make a run at Tony Larussa, but he's got some issues with alcohol in his past. I like him alot, but this area needs to be explored. The next guy will need to be a respected veteran, and Theo better avoid the temptation to bring in some greenhorn novice because it will be easier for him to handle him. We don't need some interim placeholder, we need a leader.


    In Response to Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]He is gone and deservedly so.... So let's remember why he is history: He sucked at managing the bullpen He sucked at motivating his players He sucked at disciplining his players He sucked at conditioning his players He sucked at providing leadership to his players He sucked playing small-ball He sucked at daily lineups (how many headscratchers during the season????) He sucked preparing his team for the regular season during spring training His teams have won ZERO playoff games the past three years His top 3 payroll team has finished THIRD two years in a row... You guys are whining like you lost your mommas! GET OVER IT The next manager with the very same talent will win ten more games next year just by playing his best players, conditioning them properly, and teaching basic fundamentals....GUARANTEED
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Geo, you don't seem to be faring well on this one.
    Good thing you didn't tally a vote.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -



    Wow some of you are bashing Francona? 

    Francona is human and he did his best as manager.  Some of you would not last a week as Red Sox manager.

     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]He is gone and deservedly so.... So let's remember why he is history: He sucked at managing the bullpen He sucked at motivating his players He sucked at disciplining his players He sucked at conditioning his players He sucked at providing leadership to his players He sucked playing small-ball He sucked at daily lineups (how many headscratchers during the season????) He sucked preparing his team for the regular season during spring training His teams have won ZERO playoff games the past three years His top 3 payroll team has finished THIRD two years in a row... You guys are whining like you lost your mommas! GET OVER IT The next manager with the very same talent will win ten more games next year just by playing his best players, conditioning them properly, and teaching basic fundamentals....GUARANTEED
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    WOW!!! He apparantly is the WORST manager of all-time...and yet he won 2 world series in a place where they hadn't won since the Babe became an everyday player. This is silly hyperbole, and wrong. Tito did an excellent job in his 8 years in Boston. If you wanna argue that his time was up..fine. But, if you don't realize that he is the greatest manager in the franchises last 90 years, than you know little about baseball. Grow up would you please?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In the last 2 weeks I have read at least 4 posts that included the line "I could have managed the '04 & '07 teams to a title". NO YOU COULDN'T!!. You are talking about a manager who kept his team together down 3 games to zero in the ALCS against a team that constantly beat and (lets be honest) humiliated them.  I keep reading about how he "handled the bullpen wrong", as if any of you were aware of who was available/healthy from a day to day perspective. He won 2 championships in 8 years. When he comes back to Fenway, if you don't give him a standing O...you shouldn't even be a baseball fan. The same people who balme Francona for  the all of the BoSox problems...are the samepeople who think Boston lost the '86 WS because of Bill Buckner. Try watching, learning, and understanding baseball before you crucify a guy who did something nobody else had been able to do in nearly 100 years....and then he did it again 3 years later.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]Wow some of you are bashing Francona?  Francona is human and he did his best as manager.  Some of you would not last a week as Red Sox manager.  
    Posted by Ice-Cream[/QUOTE]
    "Some" of them?!?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]In the last 2 weeks I have read at least 4 posts that included the line "I could have managed the '04 & '07 teams to a title". NO YOU COULDN'T!!. You are talking about a manager who kept his team together down 3 games to zero in the ALCS against a team that constantly beat and (lets be honest) humiliated them.  I keep reading about how he "handled the bullpen wrong", as if any of you were aware of who was available/healthy from a day to day perspective. He won 2 championships in 8 years. When he comes back to Fenway, if you don't give him a standing O...you shouldn't even be a baseball fan. The same people who balme Francona for  the all of the BoSox problems...are the samepeople who think Boston lost the '86 WS because of Bill Buckner. Try watching, learning, and understanding baseball before you crucify a guy who did something nobody else had been able to do in nearly 100 years....and then he did it again 3 years later.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]
    Help me understand, who was managing when they went down 0-3?
    So he won 2 WS in 8 years? Sounds like the players didn't even need to put on uniforms, Francona had it under control. He didn't win 2 WS, he was managing the team that won 2 WS. He had little or nothing to do with winning a single game.  I've asked others, so I'll ask you. Give us one instance where Francona made a decision that changed a potential loss into a win. Don't limit yourself to playoff games, use all 8 years of his Red Sox career. Just one move that any little league manager wouldn't have made. Don't use the "Roberts Steal" as an example, you and I could have made that call. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]Geo, you don't seem to be faring well on this one. Good thing you didn't tally a vote.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Truth hurts - I see folks are still in denial mode....
    no amount of whining/spinning can change the fact that he quit/was fired....

      BTW Harness -  Was Francona fired or was he a QUITTER?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from modod. Show modod's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona - : Help me understand, who was managing when they went down 0-3? So he won 2 WS in 8 years? Sounds like the players didn't even need to put on uniforms, Francona had it under control. He didn't win 2 WS, he was managing the team that won 2 WS. He had little or nothing to do with winning a single game.  I've asked others, so I'll ask you. Give us one instance where Francona made a decision that changed a potential loss into a win. Don't limit yourself to playoff games, use all 8 years of his Red Sox career. Just one move that any little league manager wouldn't have made. Don't use the "Roberts Steal" as an example, you and I could have made that call. 
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    How about sticking with Pedroia when he was struggling at the start of his ML career? How did that work out? Or working with Ortiz' spot in the lineup early last year when all the "experts" wanted him benched.That worked out OK, too. As far as in game decisions, how do you determine which move he made saved a win. If he brings in a reliever who gets out of the jam, is it because of the manager, or did the pitcher just do what he is paid to do?

    Seems that all the losses were his fault one way or another (poor handling of pitchers or bad lineups or poor substitutions), and the wins were accomplished in spite of him. Sure, that makes sense. Of course, all of you would have pulled Halladay on Saturday after giving up three in the first, because obviously he didn't have it.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona - : Help me understand, who was managing when they went down 0-3? So he won 2 WS in 8 years? Sounds like the players didn't even need to put on uniforms, Francona had it under control. He didn't win 2 WS, he was managing the team that won 2 WS. He had little or nothing to do with winning a single game.  I've asked others, so I'll ask you. Give us one instance where Francona made a decision that changed a potential loss into a win. Don't limit yourself to playoff games, use all 8 years of his Red Sox career. Just one move that any little league manager wouldn't have made. Don't use the "Roberts Steal" as an example, you and I could have made that call. 
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Just on the 2004 ALCS:

    1) Using Foulke for 8 outs in Game 4.
    2) Sticking with Bellhorn when people were screaming to replace him with Pokey Reese.

    Maybe some other managers would have done the same but you can't call these standard moves. 


     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]Geo, you don't seem to be faring well on this one. Good thing you didn't tally a vote.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Francona took the fall for Theo Epstein, who should have been fired at the All Star Break.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigpanther98. Show bigpanther98's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Francona is one of the best managers in the game when it comes to handling problem children, and there are too many in MLB today.  His coddling of players to keep them relatively happy worked until it didn't, but the results over his tenure is unquestionable.  It was effective, but the strategy finally ran into a team dynamic that it couldn't handle, and so it faltered.  Other coaches have had famous probelms with players with mixed results.  The former coach of the Blue Jays (the name escapes me) was fired because he couldn't handle whiney prima donnas (Shea Hillenbrand, A.J. Burnett, etc.) well, and things became chaotic in the clubhouse.  Tony Larussa rules with an iron fist and does not tolerate any kind of dissent.  This has led to public friction between him and his players (Scott Rolen, J.D. Drew, Colby Rasmus, and others) to the point where it even got the Cardinals best young hitter, Rasmus, traded!  Can you imagine if Lackey pulled his stunts on the mound with Larussa coming to yank him out? Larussa might just clock him right then and there.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tc25. Show tc25's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona - : Just on the 2004 ALCS: 1) Using Foulke for 8 outs in Game 4. 2) Sticking with Bellhorn when people were screaming to replace him with Pokey Reese. Maybe some other managers would have done the same but you can't call these standard moves. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOT
    Foulke was never the same because Tito doesn't know anything about pitching
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Great insights bigpanther98! I really want Larussa...but it's a bit tricky going from Laissez-faire leadership approach to even a moderately firmer handed one. But I think it can and should be done, assuming that Larussa has his drinking under control. We don't need any alcohol induced foolishness at this critical time for our club. It's my main concern about him...but I've heard good things on the matter. We shall see if he's even willing to come, or would rather use us as leverage. Change isn't easy for anyone.



    In Response to Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -:
    [QUOTE]Francona is one of the best managers in the game when it comes to handling problem children, and there are too many in MLB today.  His coddling of players to keep them relatively happy worked until it didn't, but the results over his tenure is unquestionable.  It was effective, but the strategy finally ran into a team dynamic that it couldn't handle, and so it faltered.  Other coaches have had famous probelms with players with mixed results.  The former coach of the Blue Jays (the name escapes me) was fired because he couldn't handle whiney prima donnas (Shea Hillenbrand, A.J. Burnett, etc.) well, and things became chaotic in the clubhouse.  Tony Larussa rules with an iron fist and does not tolerate any kind of dissent.  This has led to public friction between him and his players (Scott Rolen, J.D. Drew, Colby Rasmus, and others) to the point where it even got the Cardinals best young hitter, Rasmus, traded!  Can you imagine if Lackey pulled his stunts on the mound with Larussa coming to yank him out? Larussa might just clock him right then and there.
    Posted by bigpanther98[/QUOTE]
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Never ceases to amuse me when folks who couldn't find their way to the on-deck circle without a tour guide criticize a manager's in-game decisions. After the fact, of course.


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SculEsqare. Show SculEsqare's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Red Auerbach, sixteen years, 795 Celtic wins, nine NBA Championships:  Bill Belichick twelve years, three Super Bowl’s one AFC championship, Terry Francona eight years, 2 Pennants and 2 World Series Titles. Doesn’t get any better than this! 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from saxydogg77. Show saxydogg77's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Lloyd nailed it earlier.  All the Francona bashers are sharpening their teeth for the next meat.  Whiny, complaining, couch-surfing losers who feel they they actually have a clue as to how to manage a professional baseball club.  Every time I visit this board my faith in humanity crumbles a little more.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    Sorry G.  I am crying about losing Francona, and probably won't stop for a long time.  In this particular case, I am really hoping all you haters prove me wrong as soon as possible.  But, I think we just lost the only guy for this job.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Please Stop Crying about Francona -

    The same people who balme Francona for  the all of the BoSox problems...are the samepeople who think Boston lost the '86 WS because of Bill Buckner.

    They did lose in large part because of Buckner, but not for the reason most people think.  Buckner's offense was the biggest reason.  Buckner hit 3rd for the Red Sox and posted a .188 batting average, a .212 on base percentage and drove home 1 run.  To be fair, Jim Rice, batting 4th, didn't drive in any, but he hit .333 and had an OBP of .455.  Rice also led off 14 innings for the Red Sox in that World Series, which means Buckner ended 14 innings.

    Now, it was time for Francona to go.  He lost the team, and usually you don;t get it back when that happens.  But no one can take away the two title he was at the helm for.  He was the right person for those teams, but he no longer was.
     

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