Porcello and Detroit

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Porcello and Detroit

    Somebody brought this name up in an earlier thread. Alot of the reports are saying NL teams  are interested in him. I know it hasn't been announced he is available by the Tigers yet. Is it worth the Sox taking a look?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    i would say its worth taking a look,maybe a change of scenerey and working with farrall will help him reach his potential. he is still just 23, he would be worth taking a gamble on.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    I wouldn't pay anything for him at this point.  He is 34-33 with a 4.75 over the past three years.

    Who does that improve over?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    He was rushed to MLB too quickly. This is the reason the Sox wait until their prospects havre had more time to mature. Id take him if he was willing to start the year in AAA...

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wouldn't pay anything for him at this point.  He is 34-33 with a 4.75 over the past three years.

    Who does that improve over?

    [/QUOTE]

    Why would you leave out his 1st year> I mean, why say his last 3 years whn he only has 4 years total? Is it because it makes your case better because including 2009, it makes his record 48-42 and his ERA 4.55 instead?

    Typical. Cherry pick stats to make you look like you know what you are talking about. Porcello is 23, and while not eye-popping stats, has done well and has been fairly durable.

    I assume you've watched him pitch. He has the tools to be a stopper.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mvpyouk20. Show mvpyouk20's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    Would love to see Ben try and trade for him. Very young and cheap. I think he has better stuff that what he has shown. Would be a great move.

     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    He is not so much cheap and might even be non-tendered sfter the season if Detroit cannot trade him.  In Boston he might be more effective with the better infield defense. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Edgarpost's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is he on the trading block or not?

    [/QUOTE]

    All Ben needs to do if he wants him, is pick up the phone and see what Detroit wants for him. This ain't rocket science, contrary to so many on here that think making a trade is very complicated. It may be for BC but the rest of the league seems to understand how to make it happen.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    No news yet out of Detroit on what they want to do with him. Still think it's something we should consider.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Edgarpost's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is he on the trading block or not?

    [/QUOTE]

    All Ben needs to do if he wants him, is pick up the phone and see what Detroit wants for him. This ain't rocket science, contrary to so many on here that think making a trade is very complicated. It may be for BC but the rest of the league seems to understand how to make it happen.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    It is possible this has been done already.  Not every phone call is reported on mlbtr...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wouldn't pay anything for him at this point.  He is 34-33 with a 4.75 over the past three years.

    Who does that improve over?

    [/QUOTE]

    Why would you leave out his 1st year> I mean, why say his last 3 years whn he only has 4 years total? Is it because it makes your case better because including 2009, it makes his record 48-42 and his ERA 4.55 instead?

    Typical. Cherry pick stats to make you look like you know what you are talking about. Porcello is 23, and while not eye-popping stats, has done well and has been fairly durable.

    I assume you've watched him pitch. He has the tools to be a stopper.

    [/QUOTE]

    What are the tools one needs to be a stopper?  High ERA, high Whip, weak record, and low K-rate?  Has he ever thrown a shutout?  Has he ever even thrown a complete game?  Has he won a post-season game?

    And I always use three years unless there are extenuating circumstances.  In Porcello's case, he has been particularly consistent.  When your ERA is 4.92, 4.75, and 4.59, I feel comfortable saying that is your range.  Same with Whip and K/W.  But let's include 4 years ago.  His numbers are then 48-42 with a 4.55 ERA and a 1.417 Whip.

    So who does that improve over?

    I'm not trying to bust chops, but Porcello is #116 of 132 qualifying SPs in Fangraphs in ERA over the past 3 years, and #130 of 166 over 4 years. I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wouldn't pay anything for him at this point.  He is 34-33 with a 4.75 over the past three years.

    Who does that improve over?

    [/QUOTE]

    Why would you leave out his 1st year> I mean, why say his last 3 years whn he only has 4 years total? Is it because it makes your case better because including 2009, it makes his record 48-42 and his ERA 4.55 instead?

    Typical. Cherry pick stats to make you look like you know what you are talking about. Porcello is 23, and while not eye-popping stats, has done well and has been fairly durable.

    I assume you've watched him pitch. He has the tools to be a stopper.

    [/QUOTE]

    What are the tools one needs to be a stopper?  High ERA, high Whip, weak record, and low K-rate?  Has he ever thrown a shutout?  Has he ever even thrown a complete game?  Has he won a post-season game?

    And I always use three years unless there are extenuating circumstances.  In Porcello's case, he has been particularly consistent.  When your ERA is 4.92, 4.75, and 4.59, I feel comfortable saying that is your range.  Same with Whip and K/W.  But let's include 4 years ago.  His numbers are then 48-42 with a 4.55 ERA and a 1.417 Whip.

    So who does that improve over?

    I'm not trying to bust chops, but Porcello is #116 of 132 qualifying SPs in Fangraphs in ERA over the past 3 years, and #130 of 166 over 4 years. I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

    Not at all.  It isn't just the ERA.  The record is weak, the Whip is very, very weak, and the K-rate is weak.

    When I talk about Vic, I give you all the things I like.  Good fielder, excellent arm, good OBP, excellent speed, can play CF if we decide to trade Ells, or if Ells gets hurt, an AS and 13th in MVP as recently as 2011.

    What am I supposed to like about Porcello?  This isn't a guy throwing 99 mph, or with 1 K/IP.  It isn't a guy coming off an injury that looked great in the past two months.  He's not a guy who had a 15-K 9 inning shutout, isn't a guy that has had success in BA, or NY, or TO or in Fenway.

    In a way that is more than just a feeling, what is it that I am supposed to like?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

    Not at all.  It isn't just the ERA.  The record is weak, the Whip is very, very weak, and the K-rate is weak.

    When I talk about Vic, I give you all the things I like.  Good fielder, excellent arm, good OBP, excellent speed, can play CF if we decide to trade Ells, or if Ells gets hurt, an AS and 13th in MVP as recently as 2011.

    What am I supposed to like about Porcello?  This isn't a guy throwing 99 mph, or with 1 K/IP.  It isn't a guy coming off an injury that looked great in the past two months.  He's not a guy who had a 15-K 9 inning shutout, isn't a guy that has had success in BA, or NY, or TO or in Fenway.

    In a way that is more than just a feeling, what is it that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    His WHIP and ERA is better than a guy you are putting a lot of trust in: Doubront.

    I'm not a big fan of Porcello, but his ERA and K rate has improved for 2 straight years and at 22 to 23.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

    Not at all.  It isn't just the ERA.  The record is weak, the Whip is very, very weak, and the K-rate is weak.

    When I talk about Vic, I give you all the things I like.  Good fielder, excellent arm, good OBP, excellent speed, can play CF if we decide to trade Ells, or if Ells gets hurt, an AS and 13th in MVP as recently as 2011.

    What am I supposed to like about Porcello?  This isn't a guy throwing 99 mph, or with 1 K/IP.  It isn't a guy coming off an injury that looked great in the past two months.  He's not a guy who had a 15-K 9 inning shutout, isn't a guy that has had success in BA, or NY, or TO or in Fenway.

    In a way that is more than just a feeling, what is it that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    His WHIP and ERA is better than a guy you are putting a lot of trust in: Doubront.

    I'm not a big fan of Porcello, but his ERA and K rate has improved for 2 straight years and at 22 to 23.

    [/QUOTE]

    But the Whip has gone from

    • 1.336
    • 1.389
    • 1.407
    • 1.531

    And his Whip wasn't better than Doubront's last year, nor was it close.  I assume that the 1.531  Whip had to be among the worst in the league.

    He needs to lead the league in something other than most hits allowed before I start considering him any good, or at least someone I'd give up a serious chit for.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    Nobody said giving up serious $$$ for him. Are we looking at young talent in FA or are we going to continue with current Penny/Smoltz type pickups? That isn't working.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Iceman4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Nobody said giving up serious $$$ for him. Are we looking at young talent in FA or are we going to continue with current Penny/Smoltz type pickups? That isn't working.

    [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that you can't accumulate an endless amount of talent.  We have 5 SPs.with Morales and Tazwa as 6/7, with maybe DLR and Webster in the 2nd half.  If you traded for Porcello, would he be in the BP, minors, etc.?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

    Not at all.  It isn't just the ERA.  The record is weak, the Whip is very, very weak, and the K-rate is weak.

    When I talk about Vic, I give you all the things I like.  Good fielder, excellent arm, good OBP, excellent speed, can play CF if we decide to trade Ells, or if Ells gets hurt, an AS and 13th in MVP as recently as 2011.

    What am I supposed to like about Porcello?  This isn't a guy throwing 99 mph, or with 1 K/IP.  It isn't a guy coming off an injury that looked great in the past two months.  He's not a guy who had a 15-K 9 inning shutout, isn't a guy that has had success in BA, or NY, or TO or in Fenway.

    In a way that is more than just a feeling, what is it that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    His WHIP and ERA is better than a guy you are putting a lot of trust in: Doubront.

    I'm not a big fan of Porcello, but his ERA and K rate has improved for 2 straight years and at 22 to 23.

    [/QUOTE]

    But the Whip has gone from

    • 1.336
    • 1.389
    • 1.407
    • 1.531

    And his Whip wasn't better than Doubront's last year, nor was it close.  I assume that the 1.531  Whip had to be among the worst in the league.

    He needs to lead the league in something other than most hits allowed before I start considering him any good, or at least someone I'd give up a serious chit for.

    [/QUOTE]

    He certainly has flaws, but to use a respected poster's method of choice, who would you rather have?

    Pitcher A (24 y/o) 13-12  4.86  1.477  2.20 K/BB

    Pitcher B (23 y/0) 48-42  4.55  1.417  2.13 K/BB

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mvpyouk20. Show mvpyouk20's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    Let's be honest-would you rather see Porcello in the rotation or Lackey? Anyone who thinks this team will get 28 plust starts from Lackey is kidding themselves. Lackey will be lucky if he makes half his starts. By all star break he will be in the pen. Time for Ben to make a good move and trade for him. I read on rotoworld, the Angels are intersted in him. I am curious to see what would it take to get him.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    Detroit barely played 500 ball last year (until late) and what would you expect a pitchers record to be if the team went 50-50? Cannot blame the pitcher specifically when the defense was terrible, the bull-pen coughed up leads, and the offense was half asleep all summer.

     

    All I get on Breidy from this is he prefers 37 year old pitchers over a young arm who more than likely should improve providing the Sox have a topflight SS and CF behind him. 

     

    People clamored for Sanchez (48-51) and Masteron (39-53) and they don't even have winning records!

     
  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am trying to figure out where the hook is.  What is it, in tangible terms, that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    Is it really all about ERA for a 23 year old?

    Why do you dismiss SV's last 3 year numbers in his prime, especially vs RHPs, but then treat a 23 year old's career MLB numbers like they are a strong projector of what is to come?

    Not at all.  It isn't just the ERA.  The record is weak, the Whip is very, very weak, and the K-rate is weak.

    When I talk about Vic, I give you all the things I like.  Good fielder, excellent arm, good OBP, excellent speed, can play CF if we decide to trade Ells, or if Ells gets hurt, an AS and 13th in MVP as recently as 2011.

    What am I supposed to like about Porcello?  This isn't a guy throwing 99 mph, or with 1 K/IP.  It isn't a guy coming off an injury that looked great in the past two months.  He's not a guy who had a 15-K 9 inning shutout, isn't a guy that has had success in BA, or NY, or TO or in Fenway.

    In a way that is more than just a feeling, what is it that I am supposed to like?

    [/QUOTE]

    His WHIP and ERA is better than a guy you are putting a lot of trust in: Doubront.

    I'm not a big fan of Porcello, but his ERA and K rate has improved for 2 straight years and at 22 to 23.

    [/QUOTE]

    But the Whip has gone from

    • 1.336
    • 1.389
    • 1.407
    • 1.531

    And his Whip wasn't better than Doubront's last year, nor was it close.  I assume that the 1.531  Whip had to be among the worst in the league.

    He needs to lead the league in something other than most hits allowed before I start considering him any good, or at least someone I'd give up a serious chit for.

    [/QUOTE]

    He certainly has flaws, but to use a respected poster's method of choice, who would you rather have?

    Pitcher A (24 y/o) 13-12  4.86  1.477  2.20 K/BB

    Pitcher B (23 y/0) 48-42  4.55  1.417  2.13 K/BB

    [/QUOTE]

    Sight unseen, with no other data to go on, pitcher A.  From the stats shown on A, I would assume that he is one year into the league, maybe at worst, he qualifies as a Super 2.

    B looks like he has at least 3 years in the league.  The assumption should be first or second year of arb.

    Further, A already has a better K/W than B, and since B has at least 2 more years of experience, the difference between A and B should increase.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Detroit barely played 500 ball last year (until late) and what would you expect a pitchers record to be if the team went 50-50? Cannot blame the pitcher specifically when the defense was terrible, the bull-pen coughed up leads, and the offense was half asleep all summer.

     

    All I get on Breidy from this is he prefers 37 year old pitchers over a young arm who more than likely should improve providing the Sox have a topflight SS and CF behind him. 

     

    People clamored for Sanchez (48-51) and Masteron (39-53) and they don't even have winning records!

    [/QUOTE]

    1-You can't parse Detroit's record for the year.  Not the W/L is that meaningful, but he played for a team that is 88-74 over the past three years.  Further, the Tigers scored 4.80, 5.76, and 4.92 RPG for him over the past three years.  The league average over the past three years is 4.45, 4.46, and 4.45.

    So, even though have put up a huge amount of runs for him, he is still basically a .500 pitcher.

    2-I never said that I preferred the 37 year old pitcher.  I basically-

    • Disparaged the idea that he is an ace or a stopper
    • Asked who he would be an improvement over
    • Asked for even a single data point to support why people like the guy

    I still haven't seen a single statistic to support him.  If he were cheap and on waivers, I have reasons that I'd pick him up.  For all the posts in here, I still haven't seen a single statistic.

    The closest thing I see to a stat is the fact that he is young, and his supporters hope he will get better.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Porcello and Detroit

    So you wouldn't trade Elles for Porcello? I am not sure I would either but I would not dismiss it, especially if Elles repeats 2012.

     
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