Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 3run_bomb. Show 3run_bomb's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    dear ben cherington,

    please note: this has nothing to do with offense.
    the red sox finished first in the following offensive categories:
    ab, runs, hits, doubles, total bases, rbi, obp, slg, and ops
    they finished second in batting average.
    they finished third in home runs and triples.

    you may feel tempted, based on the suggestion of some posts and radio callers, to undertake a massive rebuilding of the Red Sox position players. please resist that temptation.
    this problem starts with pitching and ends with relief pitching. as far as i am concerned we have 2 ½ starting pitchers right now-- lester, buchholz and beckett. how they respond to the criticism that they have earned will be their professional hurdle.
    you should retain the services of one erik bedard. he is the answer to the following trivia questions about the 2011 red sox starting rotation:
    who had the highest k/9? who had the worst babip? who had the lowest fb/hr%?
    daisuke will be back and pitching for his career. aceves has very poor numbers as a starter but deserves a shot based on his performance. is it prudent to think of these two pitcher as one spot in the rotation?
    i think that you should cut ties with john lackey. i get the idea that he has no trade value, that he hopefully can't do any worse, that he is a competitor and that his overall record as a red sox is not terrible (26-23.) however, his numbers have trended poorly over the last four years and, from the outside, it appears that his arrival in boston coincided with a deterioration of the clubhouse. while it is unfair to him to paint him as a detriment to the team it is equally unfair to keep him in a situation where he not viewed as an asset. do the humane thing and let him go.
    some suggestions have leaned towards simply trading one bad contract for another. like, say, lackey back to anahiem for vernon wells. or lackey for zambrano or zito. others posit that we can simply pay most of his contract and than almost any team would trade for him. both ideas have some validity, however, ben cherington, be prepared to release him outright and give his starting spot to one of the free agent pitchers.
    karuda would do nicely. ultimately, adam wainwright is the pitcher that we want. garcia would be a great coupe because it would weaken the yankees, sabathia, too, but only bid on him in order to drive the price up. way up.
    sign this group of relievers-- uehara, papelbon, and cordero or baez.
    one more note. do not move daniel bard to the starting rotation. he has a great career ahead of him as a closer/ set up man and has zero major league experience as a starter. his last 5 starts happened in 2007 in lancaster where he posted a 10.13 era. also, excepting the rubber armed aceves, he pitched the most innings of any red sox reliever. 8.2 more innings than papelbon. of the 27 earned runs bard allowed in 2011, 13 happened in the last 11 innings pitched. he needs fewer innings not more.
    if wakefield wants to pursue the red sox wins record then let him do it as a reliever where his splits are much, much better (from overthemonster.com: For his career, Wake has a better ERA (3.73 to 4.48), WHIP (1.25 to 1.36) and a better K/BB ratio (2.25 to 1.74) as a reliever.) he is sure to eke out a few wins as a reliever. aceves won 10 games last year as such.
    in closing, good luck. we are not the most vocally supportive, but red sox nation will be behind you as long as you don't try to change the team toomuch.

    go sox!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from GhostofTito. Show GhostofTito's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Sure, the Sox haven't won a post season game in years.
    By all means, remain status quo. And keep raising ticket prices and concession prices, too!
    And bring us Adam Wainwright, who's 30 and missed the entire 2011 season with Tommy John surgery.
    Stand outside hospitals and sign other guys with major injuries. Besides the standing pat stuff, of course.
    Thank you! We worship you! We praise you for your glory! We are unworthy to be in your presence, oh great Sox ownership and management.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Don't change: don't stay the same. You have all the bases covered now.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from GhostofTito. Show GhostofTito's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Yeah, with your nearly 20,000 endless and elongated posts, you have every thread literally covered.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 3run_bomb. Show 3run_bomb's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Sure, the Sox haven't won a post season game in years. By all means, remain status quo. And keep raising ticket prices and concession prices, too! And bring us Adam Wainwright, who's 30 and missed the entire 2011 season with Tommy John surgery. Stand outside hospitals and sign other guys with major injuries. Besides the standing pat stuff, of course. Thank you! We worship you! We praise you for your glory! We are unworthy to be in your presence, oh great Sox ownership and management.
    Posted by GhostofTito[/QUOTE]


    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2233&position=P

    tommy john surgery is not a career ender. in fact, that is why pitchers have it. the process sometimes entails taking a tendon from the leg. this can make a pitcher stronger and more flexible in their pitching arm.
    a notable pitcher who came back stronger after tj is chris carpenter. sure would have loved to sign him right out of the hospital. you know, along with mariano river, smoltz, liriano, tim hudson, david wells et. al.
    get a clue, dude.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jgallag1. Show jgallag1's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    CF Jacoby
    2B Pedroia
    1B Gonzalez
    DH Pujols
    LF Crawford
    3B Youk
    SS Sutaro
    C Salty
    RF Anyone

    Aviles,Kalish, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks? 

    Beckett
    Lester
    Buch
    Someone aquired in trade for Reddick and assorted other pieces
    Sack of potatoes gotten for Lackey

    Pap or Bell,Bard, Aviles, Wake and random 1 year contracts and AAA guys.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Yeah, with your nearly 20,000 endless and elongated posts, you have every thread literally covered.
    Posted by GhostofTito[/QUOTE]

    ... it didn't take many posts to uncover your game.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Needless to say, most posters have not provided any specific details on full active roster, FA offers ands proposed trades and total payroll. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!



    I agree.  Boston does not need Vernon Wells. 

    I still cannot believe that the Blue Jays GM was able to dump both Alex Rijos and Vernon Wells.  Can he help us dump Lackey?!?  lol
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]I agree.  Boston does not need Vernon Wells.  I still cannot believe that the Blue Jays GM was able to dump both Alex Rijos and Vernon Wells.  Can he help us dump Lackey?!?  lol
    Posted by Ice-Cream[/QUOTE]
     
    Under almost any other circumstances i would whole-heartedly agree with you that Boston does not need Wells. But we have Lackey so that changes things. If getting rid of Lackey means taking on Wells and possibly sending over a prospect so they will cover some of the extra money we will have to pay Wells, then bring him on over. He fills a spot in right field and Boston would no longer have Lackey
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Needless to say, most posters have not provided any specific details on full active roster, FA offers ands proposed trades and total payroll. 
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    Needless to say, you moved the goalpost again.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Needless to say, you don't have a goal post at all. Zero on detail on next year's roster, FA contract targets except for Timmy T-Ball as your #5 starter.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington! :   Under almost any other circumstances i would whole-heartedly agree with you that Boston does not need Wells. But we have Lackey so that changes things. If getting rid of Lackey means taking on Wells and possibly sending over a prospect so they will cover some of the extra money we will have to pay Wells, then bring him on over. He fills a spot in right field and Boston would no longer have Lackey
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]

    Precisely. It's not like we love Wells, but we can get the RH'd bat we need in the OF and get rid of Lackey in one swoop. Lackey may have a good year in LA next year, but I wouldn't bet 5 cents on him regaining here.

    Wells still can have a decent year or two, but that's not the purpose of the deal.

    I'd throw in Jenks to even out the money more.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Wells is not the RH bat the Red Sox need. Zero chance of this happening, nor does it make any sense.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from massillon8. Show massillon8's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Here's a new one... (I realize LA is loaded with 1Bmen, but...) Trade:  Lackey       12 :$15.25M,  13 :$15.25M,  14 :$15.25M Youkilis      12 :$12M,  13 :$13M club option ($1M buyout) Jenks         12: $6M   Doubront or Weiland Reddick or Kalish Total: 12: $33M, 13: $28M, 14: $15M,   TOTAL: $76M For:  Wells       12 :$21M,      13 :$21M,  14 :$21M Haren      12 :$12.75M,  13 :$15.5M club option ($3.5M buyout) Total: 12: $34M, 13: $37M, 14: 21M, TOTAL: $92M 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    The Angels would never trade Haren for that junk. It just makes no sense. Lackey is done. Youk is done, Jenks is done and the minor leaguers mentioned are B grade.  Wells is a drag on the Angels payroll of course but at least he stays healthy and might have upside.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Skadude22. Show Skadude22's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Free Agents I'd target - Prince Fielder, Michael Cuddyer, Mike Gonzalez, Edwin Jackson, Jonathan Broxton, Matt Capps, and Aramis Ramirez. 

    Let JD Drew, Dan Wheeler, and David Ortiz go. Pick up Scutaro's option. Resign Papelbon and Varitek. Pick up Andrew Miller's option.  Offer arbitration (and resign) Rich Hill, Daniel Bard, Alfredo Aceves, Franklin Morales, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie, Mike Aviles, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.

    Trade Candidates - Youkilis, Reddick, Lackey
    Position of need - DH/3B/SP

    Team would look something like this:

    Ellsbury (CF)
    Crawford (LF)
    Pedroia (2B)
    Gonzalez (1B)
    Fielder (DH)
    Ramirez (3B)
    Cuddyer (RF)
    Saltalamacchia (C)
    Scutaro (SS)

    Bench - Lowrie, Aviles, Kalish, Varitek

    Starting Rotation
    Lester
    Buchholz
    Beckett
    Edwin Jackson
    Alfredo Aceves

    Bullpen
    Papelbon
    Bard
    Gonzalez
    Hill
    Broxton
    Capps
    Miller
    Morales
    Jenks

    2 of those bullpen guys won't end up making the team/will be sent down or they will join the team later in the season due to injury.

    Lowrie and Aviles can play 3B, SS, or 2B from the bench.  Varitek can contribute a little as a backup catcher.  Kalish will eventually be an everyday player, and can spot 2, if not all 3, outfield positions.  Fielder and Gonzalez can sort of platoon between 1B and DH.  The lineup is 4L,4R,1S. Bench is 1R, 1L, 2S.  Depending upon what you get from the cubs and what you can get for/have to package with the trade candidates, some of these may not be possible or necessary. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]No Lackey. No big Papi. No Wake. No V-tek. No Youk if he can't remain healthy and team oriented. He must be considered as a trade option. As should Beckett. Sorry, he is ripe for the trade block and his value will never be any higher than it currently is. And perhaps putting him together with Lackey may just get a team to bite. No Pujols or Fielder. Especially Fielder. With his body type he won't last. The whole point to cleaning house is to get back to Red Sox baseball ways. NOT to continue on down Yankee Way by buying more large name athletes and contracts. It just does not work for the SOX. The Sox need to get back to believing in the blue collar hustle players. The grit and heart need to come back. The humor. Not more dollar signs.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]
    last couple of years -- the sox have been more active in the free agent market than the Yanks. Where is the Sox farm system going to take them? If they had major league ready talent, we would have seen it in September. Is Kalish the answer in right, iglesia at short, lavarnay behind the plate? Thats a lot of new faces on a team that's supposed to contend every year. Seems to ne that the Sox have no choice but to look to the free agent market. Yanks model is pretty much the same as the Sox and Phillies. Mix big time talent in with high probability of success rookies, ..... but always field a team that must contend every year.
    Over the last 10 years, Yanks are doing better at managing their farm system and the Sox are more active in bringing over talent from other teams. What's the difference, between the two teams? Sox don't have the talent to contend
    with just what's in their farm system.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington! : last couple of years -- the sox have been more active in the free agent market than the Yanks. Where is the Sox farm system going to take them? If they had major league ready talent, we would have seen it in September. Is Kalish the answer in right, iglesia at short, lavarnay behind the plate? Thats a lot of new faces on a team that's supposed to contend every year. Seems to ne that the Sox have no choice but to look to the free agent market. Yanks model is pretty much the same as the Sox and Phillies. Mix big time talent in with high probability of success rookies, ..... but always field a team that must contend every year. Over the last 10 years, Yanks are doing better at managing their farm system and the Sox are more active in bringing over talent from other teams. What's the difference, between the two teams? Sox don't have the talent to contend with just what's in their farm system.
    Posted by pri360[/QUOTE]

    The Sox have traded some top farm guys for key pieces (like AGon). They have had a lot of comp picks recently, but they are far away from M:B ready. I think our farm is strong, but not at the top. We do have some key players poised to make a splash, and luckily they are at positions we need to fill soon:
    C:   Lava
    SS: Boggy and Iggy
    3B: Middlebrooks
    RF: Kalsih/Reddick/Brentz/Jacobs...
    SP: Ranaudo

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Needless to say, most posters have not provided any specific details on full active roster, FA offers ands proposed trades and total payroll. 
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    I don't think much will happen until the WS is over (and 3 days beyond that). I think, like usual, most of us, if not all of us, are in the dark about various issues/personnel with this team (like any team). I think whoever our new GM is, Carmine will have it's own office with shuddered windows, at the ready. So, with that philosophy, get ready for Theo point 2 ( sorry to disappoint you). We can only still guess at who the new manager will be. At this point, throw a rock, man. All we have are educated guesses... common sense guesses. I'm not particularly convinced the FO won't raise payroll to some extent either. But a good, common sense place to start would be this past year's, minus expired FA contracts.

    I think some of these possible changes and ones that already have happened could turn out to be a lot of, dare I say, fun. Maybe even a little exciting?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington! : The Sox have traded some top farm guys for key pieces (like AGon). They have had a lot of comp picks recently, but they are far away from M:B ready. I think our farm is strong, but not at the top. We do have some key players poised to make a splash, and luckily they are at positions we need to fill soon: C:   Lava SS: Boggy and Iggy 3B: Middlebrooks RF: Kalsih/Reddick/Brentz/Jacobs... SP: Ranaudo
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     no question, it's not like they still don't develop top teir talent ....it's just that they use it more so than in the past to attract big name players via the trade market .... in that respect they are a bit more like the yankees than in years past. Big name talent (via trade or free agency) augmented by their best prospects. Very much unlike the Rays, Dodgers and  Braves for example. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    Some recent pick-ups that diminished our farm somewhat...

    We got VMart for kids (Masterson, Hagadone & Price).
    We got AGon for kids. (Kelly, Rizzo & Fuentes)
    We got Bedard for kids. (Chang, Rodriguez, Fife, & Federowica> T. Robinson > SEA) 
    Aviles for kids. (Navarro & Volz)
    Salty for kids. (Thomas, McGuiness, & Mendez)
    Miller for kids. (Dustin Richardson)

    A while back we got Gagne for kids, Mirabelli for kids, Beckett and Lowell for two top kids, and we got Schill for kids. There are many more.

    After all of this, we are still rated about in the middle of the pack in the minor league ratings. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    How many goats do the Red Sox have left on the farm system, Moonslow.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]Some recent pick-ups that diminished our farm somewhat... We got VMart for kids (Masterson, Hagadone & Price). We got AGon for kids. (Kelly, Rizzo & Fuentes) We got Bedard for kids. (Chang, Rodriguez, Fife, & Federowica /> T. Robinson > SEA)  Aviles for kids. (Navarro & Volz) Salty for kids. (Thomas, McGuiness, & Mendez) Miller for kids. (Dustin Richardson) A while back we got Gagne for kids, Mirabelli for kids, Beckett and Lowell for two top kids,  and we got Schill for kids. There are many more. After all of this, we are still rated about in the middle of the pack in the minor league ratings. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE] moonslav - my point was not that the Sox do not have a great farm system -- they do -- but all these deals have left the cupboard a little bare -- and an earleier poster claimed that the Sox shouldn't be like the yankees and spend money on free agents, but use homegrown talent. My response is - that given the players in the farm system at this moment -- the sox may not have a choice but to go after players like cuddyer; wilson etc.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington! : moonslav - my point was not that the Sox do not have a great farm system -- they do -- but all these deals have left the cupboard a little bare -- and an earleier poster claimed that the Sox shouldn't be like the yankees and spend money on free agents, but use homegrown talent. My response is - that given the players in the farm system at this moment -- the sox may not have a choice but to go after players like cuddyer; wilson etc.
    Posted by pri360[/QUOTE]

    I do think we have a few players who could make a splash next year, but all are a gamble to some extent, and this team can not afford more than 1 or 2 "gambles" to have a legitimate shot at a ring in 2012. Theo took a huge gamble on Pedey. I think he convinced Tito to "gamble" on sticking with Pedey through a rough start. I am not saying we have another Pedey ready for next year, but was he highly touted by national services at the time? He made it as high as 3rd in Soxprospects.

    I do think Lavarnway has a very good chance to make an impact in 2012. The problem is, he is not ready to be a full-time catcher, so that means his only slot is DH (and back-up or 3rd catcher). Letting Papi go to give Lava a shot is a huge risk, although we could fall back on Youk at DH and let Aviles and Lowrie platoon at 3B.

    I do not have high hopes for Reddick or Kalish, but do think there is a good chance one of them can improve enough to be a decent platoon (vs RHPs) RF'er next year. Both are very good fielders, so that helps. We'd need to pick up a decent RH'd platoon guy to compliment the one who wins the job.

    I'll admit I am biased towards great fielding SSs. I have presented my case several times on how saving hits at SS by having superior range and a strong arm can tip the balance and make a very weak hitting SS equal to or better than a good or great hitting SS who can't field well or is average at best. That being said, from what I hear about Iglesias, I'm convinced he is MLB ready on defense. Personally, if he is as great as they say he is on "D", I'd rather have him as our FT SS batting .200 than Scutty and Lowrie batting .290 combined. They also have a kid named Bogaerts who is only 19 and is now rated one above Iggy at #5 on Soxprospects. I won't count on him for 2012, but watch out!

    I have never seen Middlebrooks play, so I can not say much about him. He is rated out number one prospect, and if you look at the history of Soxprospects top prospects over the years, the list has many great names and virtually no "misses", except for maybe Lars Anderson. Will is 23, so I do see him having a chance to make it up to the club in 2012, especially if Papi walks and Youk is used at DH a lot.

    I do not expect any pitching help from the farm this year, except for maybe Tazawa(25).  Doubront (23), Bowden (24), or Weiland (24) may do something, but I seriously doubt they will have a big impact. I suppose Alex Wilson (24) could surprise us, but I wouldn't count on it. I don't count Miller as a prospect after 66 MLB starts. Ranaudo, Britton and Barnes are just 22. I think they are too far away to expect 2012 help. Pimentel is 21 and had an awful 2011.

    We have a lot of good prospects that are not ready yet for MLB, but could be in 1-3 years:
    9) Jacobs (20) OF
    10) Swihart (19) C
    11) Coyle (19) 2B
    12) Cecchini (20) 3B
    17) Vitek (22) 3B
    18) Head (20) 1B
    20) Tejada (21) 2B

    Then there's Anderson (24), Hassan (23), Lin (23), Exposito (24) , and Linares (27) as dark horses for help in 2012.



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Putting together the 2012 Red Sox Roster: Let's help Ben Cherington!

    The problem is, he is not ready to be a full-time catcher

    Depends upon how he does in ST. Varitek is not ready to be a part-time catcher.
     
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